Discussion The Random Discussion Thread

[True Believer]

It gets kind of bullshit.

OK, they get together and decide that anyone female over level X has an unnatural amount of testosterone and has to be excluded. Lets call that level 100%.
So a female athlete with testosterone level 30% doses herself up to 99.99%.

Rinse and repeat with any other doping that is contingent on threshold values.

Essentially the levels of all this stuff occurs naturally at different levels in different people.
So you might have someone with 80% testosterone, 60% growth hormone, 40% something else.
Suddenly they are sitting on 99%, 99% 99% and are not cheating.

So they could have played for Collingwood in the 2010 grand final?

 

[True Believer]

People can justify anything, like looking at a woman born with female gentiles,

Female non-Jewish people?

 

[StFly]

Venezuela has oil. The USA dispute the election because they nationalised it. Don't believe what you read. They are trying to get a coup going because their stooge failed to get up. Musk is trying to get it going too, they have lithium he wants access to.

I like how it was a flippant comment on people not being able to count properly, having tacked onto the other mob that counted properly where one side went "nope, it's wrong, burn it" and it somehow got tied into oil, lithium, Musk and the USA designs for world domination.

When nope, it was just a they would have gotten away with it if it is was 110% work rate. Do better Venezuela, quip.

So they could have played for Collingwood in the 2010 grand final?

I would have said 2009 Cats since they did blood spin Chappy and GF was pushed to avoid a potential WADA ban to be shifty AF.

 

[True Believer]

I like how it was a flippant comment on people not being able to count properly, having tacked onto the other mob that counted properly where one side went "nope, it's wrong, burn it" and it somehow got tied into oil, lithium, Musk and the USA designs for world domination.

When nope, it was just a they would have gotten away with it if it is was 110% work rate. Do better Venezuela, quip.



I would have said 2009 Cats since they did blood spin Chappy and GF was pushed to avoid a potential WADA ban to be shifty AF.

There were BIG question-marks around the Pies in 2010........that was reportedly who Hird was said to be "chasing" in terms of "sports science", part of the persuasion that Dank used to convince him to implement their "supplements" program. Look at how the Pies ran rings around us in the GF replay......our blokes were buggered..

 

[Yawkey way]

10 years ago they probably couldn't do anything more than look at her crotch to see that she didn't have balls.

Are you a sporting socialist? I saw Liz Cambage a couple of years ago up close. I'm 6'2" and she could have taken my eye out with a nipple. She is physically more muscular and skilled. She's definitely a woman but has serious advantages over me so she must have a ridiculous leg up against other females.

Does she have to sit out of sport because she is bigger and better? If the boxer has been born with a vag she should be allowed to fight IMO. Sport can never be fair among every participant. Unless they can prove that she is not a woman it gets tricky from a legal stand point. There must be a guideline that says how much testosterone or what ever the measure is that they can have.

She’s just big not trans, not intersex, no suggestion of elevated testosterone and is up against women just as big if not bigger at the position she plays.

Why isn’t Caster Semenya running at these games ?. It’s a hard luck story for some people but women are entitled to a fair go, to me you might as well say doping in men’s sport is ok because that’s the true comparison here imo. All the advantages that testosterone brings versus women with normal levels.

I watched one of the bouts and it wasn’t pretty, it was disturbing watching a woman get smashed around and then looking at the two competitors side by side.

 

[gringo2011]

There were BIG question-marks around the Pies in 2010........that was reportedly who Hird was said to be "chasing" in terms of "sports science", part of the persuasion that Dank used to convince him to implement their "supplements" program. Look at how the Pies ran rings around us in the GF replay......our blokes were buggered..

I think the Pies were microdosing on HGH from memeory. Elevated levels across the whole playing group but within legal limits. It went up on line the next day and then all articles disappeared and was never spoken of again. They were definitely pushing the boundaries there.

 

[gringo2011]

She’s just big not trans, not intersex, no suggestion of elevated testosterone and is up against women just as big if not bigger at the position she plays.

Why isn’t Caster Semenya running at these games ?. It’s a hard luck story for some people but women are entitled to a fair go, to me you might as well say doping in men’s sport is ok because that’s the true comparison here imo. All the advantages that testosterone brings versus women with normal levels.

I watched one of the bouts and it wasn’t pretty, it was disturbing watching a woman get smashed around and then looking at the two competitors side by side.

But if they aren't classed as intersex what is the cut off? Apparently intersex and trans aren't allowed to fight but it means she is a bit of an anomaly. Michael Phelps is a guy who is a genetically freakish person. His lung capacity, heart and feet are like a genetically modified human designed to swim. If he's a freak like these other people are does that disqualify them?

It's probably worse in a combat sport but they wear protective gear anyway in the olympics.

I saw someone on twitter suggest that this woman has something called DSD or differences in sex development. Not intersex but sort of in the same arena but probably more to do with how they are reacting to puberty hormones and chemicals inside the body, not about being born with both traits at once.

They suggested it show up more in elite athletes funny enough. Probably because they are tested though.

 

[Saintos The ITK]

View attachment IMG_4911.mov
This is from the fishing trip out on the reef. Had to wait down a fair bit it wouldn’t let me post a larger vid.
There were that many whales that come right up to the boat after the second day you hardly notice them.
And yes we all hooked on to a couple of them. Fish On!!!!!!

 

[Sully111]

Both have become culture wars schisms. Plenty of idiots on both sides make it a very stupid and childish debate and do more damage for both sides than good.

There are also a lot of people making sense. It depends what you choose to focus on.

But it's all pretty simple really, no matter how complicated people with insane agendas try to make it.

 

[Yawkey way]

But if they aren't classed as intersex what is the cut off? Apparently intersex and trans aren't allowed to fight but it means she is a bit of an anomaly. Michael Phelps is a guy who is a genetically freakish person. His lung capacity, heart and feet are like a genetically modified human designed to swim. If he's a freak like these other people are does that disqualify them?

It's probably worse in a combat sport but they wear protective gear anyway in the olympics.

I saw someone on twitter suggest that this woman has something called DSD or differences in sex development. Not intersex but sort of in the same arena but probably more to do with how they are reacting to puberty hormones and chemicals inside the body, not about being born with both traits at once.

They suggested it show up more in elite athletes funny enough. Probably because they are tested though.

I think we can overthink these things gringo. It’s been very well established that male or elevated outside the norm testosterone through puberty and beyond gives you a huge advantage over a woman.

That’s why Semenya is banned, I have zero interest in punishing or shaming people for things they had no control over. I blame the various sporting associations and the country’s involved. If they were doing their jobs then we wouldn’t be talking about this. Mind you this isn’t new in fact it goes way back where it was either ignored or whispered about because we didn’t have the testing available or they were Rene Richards style jokes ok but not good to upset the top players.

 

[gringo2011]

I think we can overthink these things gringo. It’s been very well established that male or elevated outside the norm testosterone through puberty and beyond gives you a huge advantage over a woman.

That’s why Semenya is banned, I have zero interest in punishing or shaming people for things they had no control over. I blame the various sporting associations and the country’s involved. If they were doing their jobs then we wouldn’t be talking about this. Mind you this isn’t new in fact it goes way back where it was either ignored or whispered about because we didn’t have the testing available or they were Rene Richards style jokes ok but not good to upset the top players.

I get it but the rules need to be unified and set across all sports or something. She's copped a lot of shit for something that hasn't even been that much of a advantage. She seems to have lost plenty of fights.

As I said what about Phelps and his freakish genetic advantages? He's obviously been gifted serious physical advantage over competitors. Is being born 7 foot tall unfair to little guys who play basketball? If it wasn't raised testosterone levels, is someone with a much longer reach ban-able? Sport can't ever be perfectly equal and we wouldn't like it if it was.

I get why it's problematic but also think it's a massive overreaction at the same time. If this woman was beating everyone she fought you'd be a lot more comfortable with potentially banning her.


I still remember sparing with a little guy that was a good boxer. Thought my superior reach and height and weight advantage would **** him up. He beat the shit out of me and I don't think I landed one clean hit on him.

 

[Pakenhamsaint]

I think the Pies were microdosing on HGH from memeory. Elevated levels across the whole playing group but within legal limits. It went up on line the next day and then all articles disappeared and was never spoken of again. They were definitely pushing the boundaries there.

There was something on 3AWs rumours file about it post GF.

 

[Yawkey way]

I get it but the rules need to be unified and set across all sports or something. She's copped a lot of shit for something that hasn't even been that much of a advantage. She seems to have lost plenty of fights.

As I said what about Phelps and his freakish genetic advantages? He's obviously been gifted serious physical advantage over competitors. Is being born 7 foot tall unfair to little guys who play basketball? If it wasn't raised testosterone levels, is someone with a much longer reach ban-able? Sport can't ever be perfectly equal and we wouldn't like it if it was.

I get why it's problematic but also think it's a massive overreaction at the same time. If this woman was beating everyone she fought you'd be a lot more comfortable with potentially banning her.


I still remember sparing with a little guy that was a good boxer. Thought my superior reach and height and weight advantage would **** him up. He beat the shit out of me and I don't think I landed one clean hit on him.

Again I think we’re over complicating things. Imo we have a few problems, drugs in men’s and women’s sport, testosterone, intersex etc in women’s.

We accept that only a tiny proportion of the population will ever become an Olympian and we celebrate their efforts and marvel at the things that seperate them from the average Joe. From the giants of basketball to the smaller gymnasts nobody gives a rats so long as we believe it’s a fair competition. Given I assume we’re all down with no drugs is it really that hard to set the rules for women’s sport. Maybe born a woman and with testosterone below a set limit ?.

Yeah Michael Phelps is a freak swimmer but I’m not sure he’s that unusual amongst elite swimmers who by the way come in all shapes and sizes. As far as I’m aware the only significant thing I’ve ever read about Phelps compared to his competitors was his low production of lactate. Sports science is changing how people train and that impacts how they look, this games for example has far fewer of the bulked up sprinters.

Anyway there will always be a few unfortunate individuals who through no fault of their own will wind up excluded, tough but that’s life. What annoys me is we shouldn’t be talking about it at the Olympics and shaming them in the news. I’d like to see the press concentrate on the idiots who are sitting back enjoying the champagne and staying in luxury hotels who created the becale. How do you get banned in one comp and turn up at the Olympics, who lobbied for that, who made that decision, what do their bank accounts look like.

 

[gringo2011]

Again I think we’re over complicating things. Imo we have a few problems, drugs in men’s and women’s sport, testosterone, intersex etc in women’s.

We accept that only a tiny proportion of the population will ever become an Olympian and we celebrate their efforts and marvel at the things that seperate them from the average Joe. From the giants of basketball to the smaller gymnasts nobody gives a rats so long as we believe it’s a fair competition. Given I assume we’re all down with no drugs is it really that hard to set the rules for women’s sport. Maybe born a woman and with testosterone below a set limit ?.

Yeah Michael Phelps is a freak swimmer but I’m not sure he’s that unusual amongst elite swimmers who by the way come in all shapes and sizes. As far as I’m aware the only significant thing I’ve ever read about Phelps compared to his competitors was his low production of lactate. Sports science is changing how people train and that impacts how they look, this games for example has far fewer of the bulked up sprinters.

Anyway there will always be a few unfortunate individuals who through no fault of their own will wind up excluded, tough but that’s life. What annoys me is we shouldn’t be talking about it at the Olympics and shaming them in the news. I’d like to see the press concentrate on the idiots who are sitting back enjoying the champagne and staying in luxury hotels who created the becale. How do you get banned in one comp and turn up at the Olympics, who lobbied for that, who made that decision, what do their bank accounts look like.

They reckon Phelps had genetic abnormalities that made him unique. 6'4" but wingspan of 6'7", huge hands and size 14 feet but short legs and long torso, doesn't produce lactic acid like a normal person, has abnormal ankle rotation superior to most people, oversized lungs and heart etc.

He's like what you'd get if you got to design a human for swimming with genetic modification. It makes it complicated with genetic abnormalities if some are okay and some are not. He obviously won just about everything he competed in. This woman with elevated testosterone isn't even that good.

They definitely need to put in a set of rules over all Olympic sports but the idea that her competing is wokeness gone mad is real Fox News nonsense. It's a complicated scientific scenario that 20 years ago we would probably have not been able to even test for. She's got a manly face and that seems to be all the proof some people need.

Runners that grow up in high altitude environments, people with genetic legacies from some racial backgrounds excel through physiology etc. None of it is perfectly fair and never can be.

 

[Yawkey way]

Failed a gender test by IBA

So the IOC say the IBA is corupt ( prob are ) and kick them from making decisions from the Olympics

We just throwing rules out?

yet we kick a bloke out for staying under water a few seconds too long in the backsteoke


Bring on the drug induced women v men v alien Olympics
No holds barred
Least we won't get all this nonsense

The swimming is really clear cut and he knew he’d screwed up, it’s pretty rare but it happens. They introduced the rule to stop swimmers going 30 metres plus a lap underwater. You have rules in the breaststroke around the kick as well, a lot of swimmers are right on the edge if you use a dolphin kick as in the butterfly that’s a DQ as well and we’ve had one in these games.

I sometimes wonder how long it will be until the drugs are just an accepted part of sport and we’ve been talking about doping for as long as I can remember. I’m finding it really hard to believe the Chinese swimmer pan is clean but what can you do accept keep testing. Interesting though that he won by the greatest margin since 1828 and broke his own world record by 4 tenths of a second in a slow pool, made my eyebrows go up . Chalmers is swimming well and is one of the greatest finishers I’ve ever see, pan was pulling away from him all after a first lap that should have seen him blow up.

 

[gringo2011]

Failed a gender test by IBA

So the IOC say the IBA is corupt ( prob are ) and kick them from making decisions from the Olympics

We just throwing rules out?

yet we kick a bloke out for staying under water a few seconds too long in the backsteoke


Bring on the drug induced women v men v alien Olympics
No holds barred
Least we won't get all this nonsense

Heard a swimmer on SEN yesterday and he was saying that that holding his breath was a **** up by the swimmer. They got so good at turns that they could swim the length of the pool with out putting their heads up so made them take a certain amount of breaths per length.

 

[Yawkey way]

They reckon Phelps had genetic abnormalities that made him unique. 6'4" but wingspan of 6'7", huge hands and size 14 feet but short legs and long torso, doesn't produce lactic acid like a normal person, has abnormal ankle rotation superior to most people, oversized lungs and heart etc.

He's like what you'd get if you got to design a human for swimming with genetic modification. It makes it complicated with genetic abnormalities if some are okay and some are not. He obviously won just about everything he competed in. This woman with elevated testosterone isn't even that good.

They definitely need to put in a set of rules over all Olympic sports but the idea that her competing is wokeness gone mad is real Fox News nonsense. It's a complicated scientific scenario that 20 years ago we would probably have not been able to even test for. She's got a manly face and that seems to be all the proof some people need.

Runners that grow up in high altitude environments, people with genetic legacies from some racial backgrounds excel through physiology etc. None of it is perfectly fair and never can be.

So much of the Phelps stuff is just hot air. It’s a fact they test kids looking for the long torso, long arms but you get champions in all shapes and sizes. Exhibit A is Léon Marchand 187cm slim, 4 golds and counting and breaking Phelps records. Long arms every second guy, big lungs as a result of training are mandatory, I never had a chest X-ray where they don’t comment on it for example.

Then big feet and hands well that’s every second bloke especially if you’re tall. Nah the only that’s interesting thing imo was lactate which given its link to muscle fatigue and the pain is a massive plus, he’s powering on at the end of races when others are dying. Also a massive advantage being able to get up again feeling fresh swimming heats, semi finals and finals of multiple events. It would also have affected his post race swim down etc .Still everyone tests for it after racing and tries to bring it down. Mind you even that can be in part down to diet and training but is most likely metabolism but I’d like to see apples to apples. What’s he look like compared to the guys he’s racing not Joe Public ?.

 

[gringo2011]

The swimming is really clear cut and he knew he’d screwed up, it’s pretty rare but it happens. They introduced the rule to stop swimmers going 30 metres plus a lap underwater. You have rules in the breaststroke around the kick as well, a lot of swimmers are right on the edge if you use a dolphin kick as in the butterfly that’s a DQ as well and we’ve had one in these games.

I sometimes wonder how long it will be until the drugs are just an accepted part of sport and we’ve been talking about doping for as long as I can remember. I’m finding it really hard to believe the Chinese swimmer pan is clean but what can you do accept keep testing. Interesting though that he won by the greatest margin since 1828 and broke his own world record by 4 tenths of a second in a slow pool, made my eyebrows go up . Chalmers is swimming well and is one of the greatest finishers I’ve ever see, pan was pulling away from him all after a first lap that should have seen him blow up.

If the Chinese guy is innocent it's pretty cruel treatment. Whoever the Aussie swimmer on SEN was yesterday he was pretty much saying what you are.

Like Phelps there are people that are just naturally superior. Yao Ming was 7'6" and 141 kgs in a country that the average height and weight is 5'6' and 66 kgs for men. If this guy isn't doping he might just be the best of his generation.

 

[Yawkey way]

Heard a swimmer on SEN yesterday and he was saying that that holding his breath was a **** up by the swimmer. They got so good at turns that they could swim the length of the pool with out putting their heads up so made them take a certain amount of breaths per length.

Rules been in for ages now, he probably just got a bit of adrenaline and came of the wall a little quicker than expected.He’d have a set number of kicks of the wall, it’s a fine line but it’s pretty rare.

No number of breaths per lap it’s just about where you have to come up after the turn, some events like the 50 freestyle few if any breaths.

 

[gringo2011]

So much of the Phelps stuff is just hot air. It’s a fact they test kids looking for the long torso, long arms but you get champions in all shapes and sizes. Exhibit A is Léon Marchand 187cm slim, 4 golds and counting and breaking Phelps records. Long arms every second guy, big lungs as a result of training are mandatory, I never had a chest X-ray where they don’t comment on it for example.

Then big feet and hands well that’s every second bloke especially if you’re tall. Nah the only that’s interesting thing imo was lactate which given its link to muscle fatigue and the pain is a massive plus, he’s powering on at the end of races when others are dying. Also a massive advantage being able to get up again feeling fresh swimming heats, semi finals and finals of multiple events. It would also have affected his post race swim down etc .Still everyone tests for it after racing and tries to bring it down. Mind you even that can be in part down to diet and training but is most likely metabolism but I’d like to see apples to apples. What’s he look like compared to the guys he’s racing not Joe Public ?.

They reckon he tested well above his peers which is why he's a freak.

 

[Yawkey way]

Heard a swimmer on SEN yesterday and he was saying that that holding his breath was a **** up by the swimmer. They got so good at turns that they could swim the length of the pool with out putting their heads up so made them take a certain amount of breaths per length.

Rules been in for ages now, he probably just got a bit of adrenaline and came of the wall a little quicker than expected.He’d have a set number of kicks of the wall, it’s a fine line but it’s pretty rare.

No number of breaths per lap it’s just about where you have to come up after the turn, some events like the 50m freestyle few if any breaths.

 

[Yawkey way]

If the Chinese guy is innocent it's pretty cruel treatment. Whoever the Aussie swimmer on SEN was yesterday he was pretty much saying what you are.

Like Phelps there are people that are just naturally superior. Yao Ming was 7'6" and 141 kgs in a country that the average height and weight is 5'6' and 66 kgs for men. If this guy isn't doping he might just be the best of his generation.

You can only just keep testing but given what we know from previous swimmers and in many other sports testing is well behind the labs creating the products.

Whenever I see something that makes little sense yeah I have a second look and I don’t exclude the Americans or the Aussies from that and it makes me laugh when others do.

Think of the people who never tested positive, Lance Armstrong, Marion Jones and on and on it goes. I was raising an eyebrow watching pogacar the giro and the tour, he was so good and just rode away from his competitors like they were standing still. Lots of talk about carbon monoxide rebreather technique, if it’s working like that it won’t just be cycling.

Anyway I wouldn’t be talking about it if I was a rival coach that’s for sure, just suck it up and hope the testing catches up or he’s clean. I have to say though gringo it really was a swim to say the least.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

So much of the Phelps stuff is just hot air. It’s a fact they test kids looking for the long torso, long arms but you get champions in all shapes and sizes. Exhibit A is Léon Marchand 187cm slim, 4 golds and counting and breaking Phelps records. Long arms every second guy, big lungs as a result of training are mandatory, I never had a chest X-ray where they don’t comment on it for example.

Then big feet and hands well that’s every second bloke especially if you’re tall. Nah the only that’s interesting thing imo was lactate which given its link to muscle fatigue and the pain is a massive plus, he’s powering on at the end of races when others are dying. Also a massive advantage being able to get up again feeling fresh swimming heats, semi finals and finals of multiple events. It would also have affected his post race swim down etc .Still everyone tests for it after racing and tries to bring it down. Mind you even that can be in part down to diet and training but is most likely metabolism but I’d like to see apples to apples. What’s he look like compared to the guys he’s racing not Joe Public ?.

Wait until the Chinese get into genetic manipulation.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

If the Chinese guy is innocent it's pretty cruel treatment. Whoever the Aussie swimmer on SEN was yesterday he was pretty much saying what you are.

Like Phelps there are people that are just naturally superior. Yao Ming was 7'6" and 141 kgs in a country that the average height and weight is 5'6' and 66 kgs for men. If this guy isn't doping he might just be the best of his generation.

Assuming a relatively normal distribution.
99.7 % of human males are inside 3 standard deviations of the average.
In China the standard deviation is 6.4cm. ( average 168) So 99.7 percent of Chinese are between 149cm and 187cm.
Four standard deviations is 194cm
Five standard deviations is 200cm, and will be all except 0.012% of the population.
That comes to around 170 000 people over 200cm tall in China. Lot of people in China.

 

[bergholt]

Worth reading this thread on biology and trans stuff:



Basically saying that a person can have XY chromosomes and have a vagina (possibly not a uterus) but still be effectively male.

What this suggests to me is that none of this is anywhere near as simple as people on both sides want to make it out to be.

No, it's not as simple as saying "is she XY" or "does she have a vagina". Sorry, that's not how biology works.