Certified Legendary Thread The Random Non Footy Chat Thread - General Non Footy talk

[deltablues]

You don't know the feeling as the situation in Oz and Europe (part where I grew up) are literally worlds apart. Problem is that most Aussies tarnish the European situation with the same brush. It is simply not applicable.
And even within Europe, different circumstances apply. Common factor is the origin or rather a religion.

Your complaint of people being labelled Muslim. Your own doing. Actions like the one in Iraq are called 'their countries'. No they are not their countries. Not even remotely. But yet, 'Muslims' are allowed to be outraged. Even if it has nothing and absolutely zilt to do with religion. So who is doing the generalisations here?

One point I will agree is the whole fear.Overblown hysteria. I don't care about terrorism. My fears are more basic.
Sort of like the things you care about too. But I can directly link the danger to people from a certain background with a certain religion.
I do care about people should be able to walk in the street with whomever or when they want to, that the rights of women and gays transcend any religion. In fact religion is the last thing I care about when it comes to basic human rights. And basic rights are no longer present in any predominantly Muslim neighborhood in Europe. The roles have been switched around. They are no longer victims but the worst ones going around when it comes down to intolerance, disrespect, aggression and pack mentality. No war in Iraq for whatever reason can justify that.

I agree with you. Of course it is all about Muslims. They are in the headlines/in the media every day. And not for good reasons. How many atrocities have we had in the West (and worldwide) in say just the last 4 years, committed by Moslems? Answer - a hell of a lot. Google the list. lslam has always had bloody borders. So it should not be surprising that there is some push-back by the average man in the Western street in all of the current circumstances. . The problem is that calling out the elephant in the room has become a political issue, thanks to PC and multicultural memes.

I believe the Western populace is exercising enormous restraint in the face of an existential threat to our Western way of life and institutions. If a few Moslems in native garb in the street (the hijab is not a requirement under the Q'ran) get the odd harsh word, then in all of the current circumstances, to use an Arabic phrase - mu mushkala.

Those who get all weepy about poor Moslems in the 'burbs being verbally abused should maybe focus more on having some sympathy for the innocent civilian victims of Islam, like Paris, Orlando etc etc. My wife's parents were WW2 refugees from an Eastern European country and back in the day were often abused when she, as a child on the bus/in the shops etc, spoke her Slavic language with her mother. They had no help like the current "refugees" have and had no money or help on arrival. Things happened but we move on. And as refugees my wife's family learned English and assimilated with the host country

I might add that I spent a total of 14 years living in various Muslim countries, learned Arabic, made friends with some of the locals, mixed with them socially (and of course in business) and felt at ease in the social landscape there. I am not Muslim bashing. The issue is about adjusting to the host country. If they don't adjust (unlike my wife and her parents who adjusted to and were grateful for their New World country - and as I had to adjust when I lived in the Muslim world) then I have zero sympathy with any complaints about pushback (violence excepted).

 

[PicaBoo]

I agree with you. Of course it is all about Muslims. They are in the headlines/in the media every day. And not for good reasons. How many atrocities have we had in the West (and worldwide) in say just the last 4 years, committed by Moslems? Answer - a hell of a lot. Google the list. lslam has always had bloody borders. So it should not be surprising that there is some push-back by the average man in the Western street in all of the current circumstances. . The problem is that calling out the elephant in the room has become a political issue, thanks to PC and multicultural memes.

I believe the Western populace is exercising enormous restraint in the face of an existential threat to our Western way of life and institutions. If a few Moslems in native garb in the street (the hijab is not a requirement under the Q'ran) get the odd harsh word, then in all of the current circumstances, to use an Arabic phrase - mu mushkala.

Those who get all weepy about poor Moslems in the 'burbs being verbally abused should maybe focus more on having some sympathy for the innocent civilian victims of Islam, like Paris, Orlando etc etc. My wife's parents were WW2 refugees from an Eastern European country and back in the day were often abused when she, as a child on the bus/in the shops etc, spoke her Slavic language with her mother. They had no help like the current "refugees" have and had no money or help on arrival. Things happened but we move on. And as refugees my wife's family learned English and assimilated with the host country

I might add that I spent a total of 14 years living in various Muslim countries, learned Arabic, made friends with some of the locals, mixed with them socially (and of course in business) and felt at ease in the social landscape there. I am not Muslim bashing. The issue is about adjusting to the host country. If they don't adjust (unlike my my wife and her parents who adjusted to and were grateful for their New World country - and as I had to adjust when I lived in the Muslim world) then I have zero sympathy with any pushback (violence excepted).

Yes and no. Terrorism is one thing but we had the IRA, PLO, ETA when I grew up. . Even the Wehrmacht had 'Gott mit uns' on their belt buckles.Never questioned whether Christianity should be banned.
It is the toxic mix of certain cultures that use their faith as an excuse for not adapting to Western society or worse demanding societies adapting to them by going against anything that society stands for.

 

[deltablues]

It is only legitimized if you are under oppression and duress due to religious persecution. That was my understanding of the historical and official meanings. Jews have a similar concept. If radicals interpret it for their own purposes then it does not automatically mean there's something wrong or sinister in it's intended purpose.

The Jews call it mesirah, the religious code dictating that Jewish folk do not report or "hand over" other Jews to the authorities. This had its justification when they lived under oppressive regimes, but is not justified in the West now (although in Oz the Orthodox hareidum have sought to invoke mesirah in connection with the recent sexual abuse inquiry at the Yeshivah centres in Melbourne and Bondi - and mesirah initially caused some issues re the Bernie Madoff ponzi scam in NYC a few years ago).

Al-Taqiyya goes way beyond mesirah.

 

[deltablues]

Yes and no. Terrorism is one thing but we had the IRA, PLO, ETA when I grew up. . Even the Wehrmacht had 'Gott mit uns' on their belt buckles.Never questioned whether Christianity should be banned.
It is the toxic mix of certain cultures that use their faith as an excuse for not adapting to Western society or worse demanding societies adapting to them by going against anything that society stands for.

Gott mit uns is the same as the US's In God we trust. But it isn't invoked in the same way as allahu akbar is.

But I agree with the rest of your points. Islam at its core is a complete code covering all aspects of one's life. It has yet to undergo the equivalent of the Reformation.

 

[deltablues]

I should add to my above re the hijab - the Q'ran requires females to dress modestly. This is of course subjective up to a point, but like extremists (of whatever stripe) do, it has been interpreted in an extremist way. In the Gulf, under the influence of wahhabi Islam, the hijab is common. But not for girls below puberty. In parts of the maghreb (North Africa) it is rarely worn (altho this has changed now due to ISIS). For example, l rarely saw a hijab in Libya (or a beard). They seemed to be OK with this, as Muslims. I mean,go figure...

And when I see youngish females, including little girls, in hijabs in Western cities, and they are not Gulf Arabs (very few Gulf Arabs emigrate as they have it too good in the Gulf) then I know they are making a political statement - as the Brits say, taking the piss. And they are encouraged to do so by the bleeding hearts.

 

[PicaBoo]

I should add to my above re the hijab - the Q'ran requires females to dress modestly. This is of course subjective up to a point, but like extremists (of whatever stripe) do, it has been interpreted in an extremist way. In the Gulf, under the influence of wahhabi Islam, the hijab is common. But not for girls below puberty. In parts of the maghreb (North Africa) it as rarely worn (altho this has changed now due to ISIS). For example, l rarely saw a hijab in Libya (or a beard). They seemed to be OK with this, as Muslims. I mean,go figure...

And when I see youngish females, including little girls, in hijabs in Western cities, and they are not Gulf Arabs (very few Gulf Arabs emigrate as they have it too good in the Gulf) then I know they are making a political statement - as the Brits say, taking the piss. And they are encouraged to do so by the bleeding hearts.

More often than not it is not the girls making a statement but their parents or their husbands making that decision for them. The thing about being covered from head to toe is that it covers up the bruises.
And it is a religious statement btw. Maybe even cultural but not political. They don't do politics very well. Majority/ strongest wins and vae victis.

 

[ottoman]

Personally I dislike all religions, but I just wanted to make a statement regarding a point made previously about muslim violence. If like me you don't follow a religion and are not biased you can easily see that the biggest atrocities in the world are done by Christian countries. The difference is that the Christians are very good at making their killings look justified and morally correct.
Remember the start of the Iraq invasion. Everyone was sitting at home watching a massive bombardment of bombs on TV and nobody seemed to give two hoots that those bombs were killing women and children. And why would we care. The media informed us that we were killing evil people. Yet when some Islamic nutcase kills a few people we all jump up and down.

 

[PicaBoo]

Personally I dislike all religions, but I just wanted to make a statement regarding a point made previously about muslim violence. If like me you don't follow a religion and are not biased you can easily see that the biggest atrocities in the world are done by Christian countries. The difference is that the Christians are very good at making their killings look justified and morally correct.
Remember the start of the Iraq invasion. Everyone was sitting at home watching a massive bombardment of bombs on TV and nobody seemed to give two hoots that those bombs were killing women and children. And why would we care. The media informed us that we were killing evil people. Yet when some Islamic nutcase kills a few people we all jump up and down.

Sorry but I do count myself also as a fervent non follower, not biased but I don't easily see your claim.
The death toll of the civil war in Syria has been predominantly been between Muslims, so I am curious what makes you think that. Care to back it up with some figures? What timeframe are we talking about? This decade, century, millennium ?
A explanation for atrocities too if you could.

 

[ottoman]

Sorry but I do count myself also as a fervent non follower, not biased but I don't easily see your claim.
The death toll of the civil war in Syria has been predominantly been between Muslims, so I am curious what makes you think that. Care to back it up with some figures? What timeframe are we talking about? This decade, century, millennium ?
A explanation for atrocities too if you could.

We don't have to go too far into the past.
Iraqi death toll as a result of the US invasion between 500,00 and a million depending on sources.
Afghan invasion between 25000 and 50000 (since US and NATO involvement)

But what we need to really understand is how many of the conflicts in the world are a result of western powers stirring the pot for their own gains. The war in Syria is a perfect example. Many of the conflicts in the middle east, south and central america and Africa have the stink of US involvement behind the scenes.
Madeline Albright was asked in an interview were the deaths of over 50,000 children justified just so the US could secure its oil interests (and protect the petro dollar) and she quite cold heartedly answered yes.

Don't get me wrong Pica. I agree with a lot of what you say re muslim communities. I live in an muslim country and witness first hand every day how religion is used to blind the masses and to keep them ignorant, but if you look at the causes of conflict related deaths in the world you will find that it's the christian Govt's that are usually behind what is happening.

ISIS, the Taliban, Al Queda were all set up by the US and trained by them. Today internationally recognised terrorist organizations are being trained armed and funded by the US in Syria because it is in their interests. The enemy of my enemy is my friend mentality.

Now none of this is a reflection of the citizens of these Christian countries. But the fact remains that it generally these powers that are the cause of so much of this misery in the world.

 

[PicaBoo]

We don't have to go too far into the past.
Iraqi death toll as a result of the US invasion between 500,00 and a million depending on sources.
Afghan invasion between 25000 and 50000 (since US and NATO involvement)

But what we need to really understand is how many of the conflicts in the world are a result of western powers stirring the pot for their own gains. The war in Syria is a perfect example. Many of the conflicts in the middle east, south and central america and Africa have the stink of US involvement behind the scenes.
Madeline Albright was asked in an interview were the deaths of over 50,000 children justified just so the US could secure its oil interests (and protect the petro dollar) and she quite cold heartedly answered yes.

Don't get me wrong Pica. I agree with a lot of what you say re muslim communities. I live in an muslim country and witness first hand every day how religion is used to blind the masses and to keep them ignorant, but if you look at the causes of conflict related deaths in the world you will find that it's the christian Govt's that are usually behind what is happening.

ISIS, the Taliban, Al Queda were all set up by the US and trained by them. Today internationally recognised terrorist organizations are being trained armed and funded by the US in Syria because it is in their interests. The enemy of my enemy is my friend mentality.

Now none of this is a reflection of the citizens of these Christian countries. But the fact remains that it generally these powers that are the cause of so much of this misery in the world.

Figures are an overall death toll and indiscriminate of who did what. You talk about involvement, not who actually did it. Your rationale is that the Western invasion allows Muslims to kill each other and therefor Western world is the cause of their death. Skewed thinking.
And it takes two to tango. Name me one conflict in an Islamic country where Saudi Arabia or Iran is not involved indirectly. Doesn't your argument apply then that because an Islamic state is involved, they are responsible? Powers that are just as hard pulling the strings as Western world, only the West is more willing to do the dirty work.
But let's take one step back and look at the situation before the Western world acts. How come an idiot like Saddam is allowed to gas his own people and the Islamic world does nothing? Or idiots like the Taliban in Afghanistan. How come there is a tent camp near Mekka to hold all refugees from Syria yet the West is blackmailed by the PC to take on refugees as they drown in the Mediterranean?
When Western world acts military, they are the bad guys? Maybe if the Islamic world did something to end the suffering of their fellow men, the US and the rest didn't had a casus belli to start with. And don't get me wrong, those noble reasons for war by the US and co are a convenient side effect while other interests were pursued like oil, poppy fields , building corporations or that of local allies .
I am just as cynical about the US as I am about any else. But to quote Hitchens:
"Some peaceniks clear their throats by saying that, of course, they oppose Saddam Hussein as much as anybody, though not enough to support doing anything about him."
Clean hands doesn't make a clean conscience.

 

[Dynamics]

We don't have to go too far into the past.
Iraqi death toll as a result of the US invasion between 500,00 and a million depending on sources.
Afghan invasion between 25000 and 50000 (since US and NATO involvement)

But what we need to really understand is how many of the conflicts in the world are a result of western powers stirring the pot for their own gains. The war in Syria is a perfect example. Many of the conflicts in the middle east, south and central america and Africa have the stink of US involvement behind the scenes.
Madeline Albright was asked in an interview were the deaths of over 50,000 children justified just so the US could secure its oil interests (and protect the petro dollar) and she quite cold heartedly answered yes.

Don't get me wrong Pica. I agree with a lot of what you say re muslim communities. I live in an muslim country and witness first hand every day how religion is used to blind the masses and to keep them ignorant, but if you look at the causes of conflict related deaths in the world you will find that it's the christian Govt's that are usually behind what is happening.

ISIS, the Taliban, Al Queda were all set up by the US and trained by them. Today internationally recognised terrorist organizations are being trained armed and funded by the US in Syria because it is in their interests. The enemy of my enemy is my friend mentality.

Now none of this is a reflection of the citizens of these Christian countries. But the fact remains that it generally these powers that are the cause of so much of this misery in the world.

You've reminded me of the infamous photo of Rumsfeld and Hussein shaking hands in 83.

Rummy was so proud of how he helped out his buddy Saddam that he bragged about it during his run at the Presidency in 88.

The enemy of the enemy is my friend indeed. And I will turn my back on reports of chemical weapons being used to kill civilians because... y'know... friendship and stuff.

Putting the debate on Islam aside for a moment, it really has been a pretty good PR job by the West to convince its own civilians that death at our hands is always justice. John Howard still tells himself just that when he's getting his spray tan done.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Yes and no. Terrorism is one thing but we had the IRA, PLO, ETA when I grew up. . Even the Wehrmacht had 'Gott mit uns' on their belt buckles.Never questioned whether Christianity should be banned.
It is the toxic mix of certain cultures that use their faith as an excuse for not adapting to Western society or worse demanding societies adapting to them by going against anything that society stands for.

Do you mean like Irgun?

 

[Baltimore Jack]

But what we need to really understand is how many of the conflicts in the world are a result of western powers stirring the pot for their own gains. The war in Syria is a perfect example. Many of the conflicts in the middle east, south and central america and Africa have the stink of US involvement behind the scenes.

Oliver Stone's "Untold History of the United States"
And Christianity is the master religion when in comes to controlling the masses

 

[deltablues]

More often than not it is not the girls making a statement but their parents or their husbands making that decision for them. The thing about being covered from head to toe is that it covers up the bruises.
And it is a religious statement btw. Maybe even cultural but not political. They don't do politics very well. Majority/ strongest wins and vae victis.

On the contrary, Islam is highly political, in the dictionary definition of the word: Political - of, relating to, or dealing with the structure or affairs of government, politics, or the state: a political system. It is a total belief system and "path" (shariah) which goes beyond religion as we understand religion in the west, post-Reformation. That is why Ghaddafi slaughtered thousands of Islamists/iqwan during his reign - they were a threat to his rule. Ditto Saddam. And others.

But in any event I may be straying from the intent of this thread as this topic is probably more for SRP or similar, so will not comment any further on Islam here.

 

[PicaBoo]

On the contrary, Islam is highly political, in the dictionary definition of the word: Political - of, relating to, or dealing with the structure or affairs of government, politics, or the state: a political system. It is a total belief system and "path" (shariah) which goes beyond religion as we understand religion in the west, post-Reformation. That is why Ghaddafi slaughtered thousands of Islamists/iqwan during his reign - they were a threat to his rule. Ditto Saddam. And others.

But in any event I may be straying from the intent of this thread as this topic is probably more for SRP or similar, so will not comment any further on Islam here.

Ah in that context I agree. And yes better leave it be. We are parroting enough already .
A GoPies to. If only believers were as critical of their religion as we are about our team :

 

[Magpie Girl]

But in any event I may be straying from the intent of this thread as this topic is probably more for SRP or similar, so will not comment any further on Islam here.

The discussion is really interesting reading, and this thread is as good as any for it, so please continue if you wish

 

[Hardas]

Oliver Stone's "Untold History of the United States"
And Christianity is the master religion when in comes to controlling the masses

We just need to follow the money trail, and all the collateral damage in oil-producing countries [History of Iran, for example] throughout the history of oil production to see the wonderful West in all its infamy.

 

[Hardas]

Ah in that context I agree. And yes better leave it be. We are parroting enough already .
A GoPies to. If only believers were as critical of their religion as we are about our team :

ZIIIIIIING!

 

[PicaBoo]

We just need to follow the money trail, and all the collateral damage in oil-producing countries [History of Iran, for example] throughout the history of oil production to see the wonderful West in all its infamy.

Other civilizations ( word used lightly ) weren't that much better, just worse in war. Japan for instance in WWII. Pure expansion drift.

In the modern age Russia, China and the rich oil states only leave a trail of missing journalists. Hard to know what is going on there but it can't be much good.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

And of course lets not forget good old England who sailed the world, raping it's resources "for King and Country"
The Union Jack is not a Flag, its a Butchers Apron

 

[PicaBoo]

And of course lets not forget good old England who sailed the world, raping it's resources "for King and Country"
The Union Jack is not a Flag, its a Butchers Apron

Again meh. They were the best in their era in tgat but far from the only country and that extends to non Western civilizations ( again term used lightly ) that showed a bit of ambition beyond their borders.

 

[Maggie5]

You know we can look to history to suit any arguement but what concerns me more is the following:

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...ical-islamists-claim-over-merrylands-incident
http://www.news.com.au/technology/o...k/news-story/65a03eb515e08bd5ee929774d064aea5

Does this sound familiar? George Christensen MP...

“I wonder how quickly some idiot is going to inanely say this has nothing to do with Islam or talk about a religion of peace or blame those who oppose radical Islam or even Australia as a whole for marginalising some ‘disaffected youth’.”

Even though the police stated this is not a terrorist attack, this MP took to social media immediately.

Not sure we have any hope of solving problems with attitudes like this.

We have a huge problem with mental illness in Australia, governments all all levels and political learning have progressively cut funding in this area. There was a report on ABC this week where the QLD government has closed down a centre that assisted teenagers with issues and no alternative offered. A number of the persons that were benefiting have since committed suicide.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Again meh. They were the best in their era in tgat but far from the only country and that extends to non Western civilizations ( again term used lightly ) that showed a bit of ambition beyond their borders.

So using your own criteria (which you used earlier in the discussion) could you be accused of being an apologist for the things done in years gone past?
I'm not suggesting you are, I'm just trying to understand your perspective and how it changes in relation to similar incidents separated by only two things, western philosophical values and time

 

[PicaBoo]

So using your own criteria (which you used earlier in the discussion) could you be accused of being an apologist for the things done in years gone past?
I'm not suggesting you are, I'm just trying to understand your perspective and how it changes in relation to similar incidents separated by only two things, western philosophical values and time

I am not saying they were right in doing so but I am putting it in perspective that they weren't the only ones, irrespective of era or origin. Other cultures were just as bad or probably even worse.

 

[jmac70]

It's about to piss down. Just in time for school pick up