Mega Thread The Random Thoughts Thread Part 1

[Dylan8]

Do people actually like Limp Bizkit

 

[El_Scorcho]

Do people actually like Limp Bizkit

Only nostalgically and even then Jesus Christ sort your life out IMO

 

[Doctor Feel]

Do people actually like Limp Bizkit

How could you not.

 

[Natman]

Kickpuncher

The old Mandelbrot Set.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Watching SBS JFK: The Smoking Gun and Australian homicide detective Colin McLaren's 4 1/2 year analysis of the JFK assassination. He reckons Harvey first shot missed, second shot hit Kennedy passing thru his throat but third shot was accidently discharged by secret service officer George Hickey who was riding in the car behind Kennedy's limo that day.

Howard Donahue was a USA ballistics expert who spent 25 years analysing the assassination attempt. McLaren built his investigation on Donahue's work.

The AR15 rifle was a brand new firearm issued to Secret Service just days before. The US army used it in Vietnam because it exploded upon impact. That was the style of bullet that blew off Kennedy's head. McLaren reckons that's why the Zupruder film is so graphic.

It is not suggested Hickey was involved in a conspiracy, rather that he wasn't fit to be guarding the president as he had been out drinking with fellow agents the night before and was handling a firearm without adequate training. The doco suggests the firearm accidentally discharged when Hickey's car stopped suddenly after the first shots were fired by Oswald.
The Secrey Service blokes the night before went out drinking and barhoping the night before the assasination and ended up at a strip joint. Drinking until 5am and had a 7am muster. Motorcade started at 12noon. This was reported in a newspaper by a journo who was with them. It was also in testimony in the Warren inquiry.

George Hickey the secret service guy who McLaren says accidently shot Kennedy never gave evidence at the Warren inquiry and was basically buried by the government.

 

[raman]

I can't wait to piss off my conspiracy buddies during the 50th anniversary furore we're about to be engulfed in.

Oswald acted alone. End of story.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

I can't wait to piss off my conspiracy buddies during the 50th anniversary furore we're about to be engulfed in.

Oswald acted alone. End of story.

Yep, but he got off two shots. A miss and one thru the throat. The third shot was an accident from an exploding type bullet from a poor secret service guy. If the bullet Oswald used to shot Kennedy thru the throat, was the same as the one that went thru Kennedy's skull then his neck would have been obliterated. It wasn't.

 

[Zakk Wylde]

 

[raman]

Yep, but he got off two shots. A miss and one thru the throat. The third shot was an accident from an exploding type bullet from a poor secret service guy.

I'm afraid Occam's razor alone puts that high among the sillier theories I've heard, even if it's not technically a "conspiracy" theory.

If the bullet Oswald used to shot Kennedy thru the throat, was the same as the one that went thru Kennedy's skull then his neck would have been obliterated. It wasn't.

Leaving aside the fact that a bullet exiting a skull is not going to behave in the same way as a bullet exiting soft tissue... that only applies if you believe the headshot bullet was obliterated, or somehow "explosive".

Also: there were three spent shells in Oswald's sniper's nest.

 

[Kickpuncher]

So one of my mates was drunk picture messaging my ex last night of himself spooning with bread rolls.

 

[Asgardian]

Had a nice chat on the phone with Ben Demertzis the other day.

Seems like a capable bloke ...

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

I'm afraid Occam's razor alone puts that high among the sillier theories I've heard, even if it's not technically a "conspiracy" theory.

Bugger Oscar, look at the basic ballistics.

The bullet that went thru Kennedy's neck left a 7mm hole. Oswald's Carcano rifle fires a full metal jacket bullet which is a 6.5mm round. The bullet thru base of Kennedy’s neck, just to the right of his spine, exits his throat, below his adams apple, struck Governor John connally beneath and behind his right arm pit shattered 4 inches of Connallys 5th rib, exited below his right nipple, crashed thru his wrist, before lodging 2 inches deep into Connally’s left thigh. That bullet was found in the hospital when Connally was being treated.

The bullet that hit Kennedy in the skull, from the autopsy report, left a 6mm hole and went for 15mm before exploding. It left fragments in Kennedy's head. How does a 6.5mm bullet only leave a 6mm hole in this case?

How do you explain 2 bullets producing completely different results yet supposedly coming from the same gun? One bullet pierces thru 2 men including bone, and remains in tact, in one piece, yet the other bullet explodes in the head and lead to 30 to 40 dust like particle fragments as reported in the autopsy report.

Ballistics expert Howard Donahue nailed what happened in 1977 using the ballistics. But he didn't have access to all the information documents so it was never been fully accepted and its not as sexy as a conspiracy theory.

Leaving aside the fact that a bullet exiting a skull is not going to behave in the same way as a bullet exiting soft tissue... that only applies if you believe the headshot bullet was obliterated, or somehow "explosive".

How the hell can you put that aside. Thats the whole fundamental point so you can't leave it aside. There re bullets that are made to shot thru a target. There are those that are made to explode. Kennedy head exploded and brain matter was splattered over his wife and the car. Watch the Zapruder (spell) film. The bullet for an AR15 rifle bullets were the explosive type. Go and talk to gun experts and they will tell you different bullets do different things. As they showed in the film they had a gun expert fire a bullet at a melon. The first with the full metal jacket 6.5mm using a Carcano rifle and the bullet left in tact with a nice clean hole thru the middle. They then use a frangible bullet which is designed to explode violently on impact. The melon explodes as expected into many pieces.

Also: there were three spent shells in Oswald's sniper's nest.

Howard Donahue explains that rather easily. Two cartridges were found next to each other and one by itself. the one by itself has a dent in it. It is likely that the cartridge with the dent was used as a chamber plug to stop moisture and grit from getting into the chamber. It was a common thing to do with rifles. He then would have removed it / ejected it from chamber plug before using his rifle.

I have a question for you. Why did at least 10 witnesses - most at ground level the one who wasn't was the policeman in font of the motorcade was on top of the bridge/underpass - say they smelt gun powder? There was a 15 mile per hour wind coming from the south west blowing back towards the book depository. Why was this evidence ignored?

One witness was Senator Ralph Yarborough riding with VP Lyndon Johnson in an open Lincoln in the motorcade. The senator was a hunter and had been in the army said he knew they were rifle shots and a second or two after the third shot he said he smelt gun powder. In interviews with the media in years following he said he always thought it was strange how he could smell the powder of the rifle from a high building as he said you don’t smell gunpowder unless you are upwind of it and it blows in your face .

The Warren Commission wasn't set up to solve the crime. They had Oswald. Warren Commission lead counsel Arlen Specter had his single bullet theory which Donahue many years later proved was right but that it wasn't the full story. It was the Cold War. The world almost went to a nuclear 15 months earlier due to the Cuban missile crisis. It wasn't set up to find the truth. The Secret Service covered their arse and got plenty of people to sign gag orders. They stopped using AR15 rifle weeks after the assassination. Donahue from testimony of the Warren Commission report found that they had 11 witnesses put the AR15 rifle in George Hickey’s hands 2 of them at the time of the 3rd shot final shot.

I wont go on but if I did I would quote plenty of testimony from the Assassination Records Review Board from the Deposition of Jerrol Francis Custer and others who performed the autopsy and were asked to change evidence or gave evidence to the Secret Service but were gagged from talking about it. The fact all the SS's evidence was destroyed between the ARRB being set up by Clinton and then commencing, says a fair bit.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

We need some ExpectToWin transcripts in the off season.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Had a nice chat on the phone with Ben Demertzis the other day.

Seems like a capable bloke ...

Ben is a ripper. I have been dealing with him for 3 years, started on the phone, met him at Footy Park to pick up something, now I regularly meet him at post match functions at Alberton. He asks for feedback about membership and I give him mine plus some of the feedback I read here and on TPFP. Also because I'm in Club 1870 which he is charge of and there are about 150 of us, I have dealings with him on this membership events, merchandising etc.

 

[Jumbo]

I can't remember the last book that I read, do people read books anymore?

p.s Hugh Hefner style magazines are not books.

 

[Jim Dixon]

I can't remember the last book that I read, do people read books anymore?

p.s Hugh Hefner style magazines are not books.

The last book I read was a biography of Harold Larwood. I have a long bus-ride to work every day so it's a good time to read books.

 

[Eddie Dingle]

I can't remember the last book that I read, do people read books anymore?

p.s Hugh Hefner style magazines are not books.

Best Bets on Saturday. I can't believe how much advertising for gambling is in that book.

Something should be done.

 

[Jim Dixon]

Best Bets on Saturday. I can't believe how much advertising for gambling is in that book.

Something should be done.

 

[raman]

Bugger Oscar, look at the basic ballistics.

Not sure who Oscar is but ok...

The bullet that went thru Kennedy's neck left a 7mm hole.

Are you talking entry or exit here? Because the "magic bullet" entered Kennedy's upper back/neck, leaving a 6.5mm wound. The exit wound on the throat was not measured before it was destroyed by an emergency tracheotomy at the hospital, but five doctors testified to its existence.

Oswald's Carcano rifle fires a full metal jacket bullet which is a 6.5mm round. The bullet thru base of Kennedy’s neck, just to the right of his spine, exits his throat, below his adams apple, struck Governor John connally beneath and behind his right arm pit shattered 4 inches of Connallys 5th rib, exited below his right nipple, crashed thru his wrist, before lodging 2 inches deep into Connally’s left thigh. That bullet was found in the hospital when Connally was being treated.

Yep to all that.

The bullet that hit Kennedy in the skull, from the autopsy report, left a 6mm hole and went for 15mm before exploding. It left fragments in Kennedy's head. How does a 6.5mm bullet only leave a 6mm hole in this case?

Something's been lost in translation there.

"The smaller hole on the back of the President's head measured one-fourth of an inch by five-eighths of an inch (6 by 15 millimeters). The dimensions of that wound were consistent with having been caused by a 6.5-millimeter bullet fired from behind and above which struck at a tangent or an angle causing a 15-millimeter cut. The cut reflected a larger dimension of entry than the bullet's diameter of 6.5 millimeters, since the missile, in effect, sliced along the skull for a fractional distance until it entered. The dimension of 6 millimeters, somewhat smaller than the diameter of a 6.5-millimeter bullet, was caused by the elastic recoil of the skull which shrinks the size of an opening after a missile passes through it."


Link

How do you explain 2 bullets producing completely different results yet supposedly coming from the same gun?

The "magic bullet" did not hit bone flush-on until it had slowed to a speed of about 900 feet per second and hit Connolly's wrist. Before this it had just grazed Kennedy's vertebra and Connolly's rib and been slowed down by a whole mess of soft tissue.

The head shot bullet hit Kennedy's skull clean travelling at 1700-1800 feet per second.

Whole different situations, whole different kettles of fish.

Oh, and all fragments found, including the ones in the skull, were forensically matched to the rifle and ammunition used by Oswald.

How the hell can you put that aside.

Because I didn't have time last night to go into a little more detail as I did above.

Howard Donahue explains that rather easily. Two cartridges were found next to each other and one by itself. the one by itself has a dent in it. It is likely that the cartridge with the dent was used as a chamber plug to stop moisture and grit from getting into the chamber. It was a common thing to do with rifles. He then would have removed it / ejected it from chamber plug before using his rifle.

Do you have primary sources for this, i.e. deposed testimony given in a timely manner? Or is this just hopeful speculation made years later?

I have a question for you. Why did at least 10 witnesses - most at ground level the one who wasn't was the policeman in font of the motorcade was on top of the bridge/underpass - say they smelt gun powder? There was a 15 mile per hour wind coming from the south west blowing back towards the book depository. Why was this evidence ignored?

Can you cite this from a primary source? i.e. some kind of testimony or legal report and not a book written by a crackpot?

One witness was Senator Ralph Yarborough riding with VP Lyndon Johnson in an open Lincoln in the motorcade. The senator was a hunter and had been in the army said he knew they were rifle shots and a second or two after the third shot he said he smelt gun powder. In interviews with the media in years following he said he always thought it was strange how he could smell the powder of the rifle from a high building as he said you don’t smell gunpowder unless you are upwind of it and it blows in your face.

Did Yarborough also mention in his interviews that the car he was in was directly next to the Depository at the time the shooting began?

Let me ask you a question. How do you explain the testimony of Howard Brennan, who saw Oswald in the window before the shooting, later looked looked up at him reflexively after he heard the first shot, and saw him take two more shots, observe his handiwork, and calmly move back from the window?

The Warren Commission wasn't set up to solve the crime. They had Oswald. Warren Commission lead counsel Arlen Specter had his single bullet theory which Donahue many years later proved was right but that it wasn't the full story. It was the Cold War. The world almost went to a nuclear 15 months earlier due to the Cuban missile crisis. It wasn't set up to find the truth. The Secret Service covered their arse and got plenty of people to sign gag orders. They stopped using AR15 rifle weeks after the assassination. Donahue from testimony of the Warren Commission report found that they had 11 witnesses put the AR15 rifle in George Hickey’s hands 2 of them at the time of the 3rd shot final shot.

I wont go on but if I did I would quote plenty of testimony from the Assassination Records Review Board from the Deposition of Jerrol Francis Custer and others who performed the autopsy and were asked to change evidence or gave evidence to the Secret Service but were gagged from talking about it. The fact all the SS's evidence was destroyed between the ARRB being set up by Clinton and then commencing, says a fair bit.

See, we're just getting back into loopy conspiracy theorist territory here. I'll return things to Occam's razor. One loser who wanted to be famous, who was a Marine-trained crack shot, three shots, three shell casings on the floor. The rest is all smoke.

 

[Natman]

Seriously guys, this is a good discussion. Keep it up as it is one of the great mysteries of the world - or perhaps just being made that way by vested interests.

 

[raman]

Seriously guys, this is a good discussion. Keep it up as it is one of the great mysteries of the world - or perhaps just being made that way by vested interests.

I'm treating it as good practice as none of the conspiracy loons I speak with will be remotely as well informed as REH

 

[Natman]

I'm treating it as good practice as none of the conspiracy loons I speak with will be remotely as well informed as REH

You have done a good job returning serve and winning the point to go 15 all against the mighty REH.

 

[Jumbo]

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Oh, and all fragments found, including the ones in the skull, were forensically matched to the rifle and ammunition used by Oswald.

Just this bit for now.

From the testimony of the guy who took the X-rays. He was never called to the Warren Commission to give testimony even after going and talking to the commission's lead counsel Arlen Specter. He waited to be called but never was.

Doctor John Ebersole was the Acting Chief of Radiology at the Naval Hospital at Bethesda the day that JFK's body was brought in for the autopsy. Why did he interfere with the autopsy X-rays and insist metal fragments were taped to the bone?? If everything was kosher why tamper with the evidence? It would speak for itself.

Oh and a nice piece of nominative determinism - the ARRB general counsel was a Mr jeremy Gunn!!

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/arrb/medical_testimony/pdf/Custer_10-28-97.pdf

Assassination Records Review Board
Assassination of President John F Kennedy
Deposition of Jerrol Francis Custer
October 28, 1997

Page 144 to page 153. Custer was the x-ray technician working in the morgue that night.

Q: Was it the Same X-ray unit that was used
to take the autopsy -
A: Yes, sir.The same distance.
Q: And what was the purpose of taking these
X-Rays?
A: I was told by Dr. Ebersole that they were
to be taken to make measurements, to make a bust of
President Kennedy.
Q: What did you do when you took the X-rays?
What were the procedures? How did you go about
taking them?
A: All I did was place the bone fragments on
the film, and I made different exposures at
different distances.
Q: Did Mr. Ebersole - or Dr. Ebersole say
anything to you about metal fragments?
A: He gave me three or four different metal
fragments, varying in size. And he asked me to
tape them to the bones.
Q: Did you tape metal fragments to the bones?
A: Yes, sir

Q: What was the purpose that you understood
taping metal fragments to the bones to be?
A: That was a good question, because I didn’t
understand it at the time. either.
Q: Is there any question in your mind whether
you, in fact, taped metal fragments to the bones?
A: Absolutely no question at all in my mind.
Q: Do you see the results of those metal
fragments appearing on X-ray No. 4?
A: Only a few. here.
Q: And you’re pointing to the largest
fragment in -
A: The largest fragment.Thc superior
portion of it.
Q: Approximately what time did you take the
X-rays on the 23rd?
A: I have to guesstimate. Early morning,
early afternoon - No. Late morning, early
afternoon.
Q: Did Dr. Ebersole ever subsequently explain
to you the purpose for taping metal fragments to
the bones to be -

A: No, he didn’t. He just stated to me, when
he brought the film - the bone fragments and the
metal fragments to me, that he had just come back
from the White House after being debriefed.
Q: And what did he say about that debriefing!
A: Well, he just said that he was debriefed
by the Secret Service. And that was it.
High-ranking people had talked to him-And he
suggested to me that everything that I see from now
on, I should forget.
Q: Did he say that to you at approximately
the same time that you were working on X-raying the
skull fragments?
A: Absolutely.
Q: Do you know what-where the skull fragments came
from?
A: They arrived, supposedly, that evening
from Dallas.
Q: When did you first hear that fragments bad
arrived from Dallas?
A: The night of the autopsy.
Q: Did you see the fragments on the night of
the autopsy?
A: No, I did not see the fragments. I just
heard the conversation.
Q: Other than the metal fragments that you
taped to the skull fragments, did you identify any
other metal fragments in the bones?
A: In the skulls and the AP cervical spine.
Q: Let me withdraw the question.
A: Go ahead.
Q: The question wasn't clear.
With regard to taking the X-rays of the
bone fragments that you have in front of you -
A: No.
Q: - were there any metal fragments that
were in the bone, outside of this - the taped
fragments?
A: No.
Q: So, in other words, the X-ray is -
appears as if there are metal fragments in the
bone. Whereas. in fact, that is all a construct of
the way that the X-ray was taken; is that correct?
A Absolutely correct
Q: Okay. Could you look at - I’d like you
to take just a quick look at X-ray NO. 5 and No. 6,
which arc similar X-rays, in terms of showing the
bone fragments.
Let me try asking you one question, just
to make sure that the record is clear on this.
Did Dr. Ebersole ask you to tape the metal
fragments to the bone after he had returned from
the White House? Are you able to say with
certainty?
A: Absolutely. As soon as he walked in,
that’s the first thing he said. “I want these bone
fragments X-rayed with metal fragments taped.”
Okay.This - this is a different bone
fragment. Same one. Same one. Just added one to
it, that’s all.
Q: I think maybe if you looked at the other
one again for just a moment, you might see -
MR. GUNN: If WC could look at No. 4
again.
BY MR. GUNN:
Q: You’re identifying three bone fragments in
X-ray No. 5; is that correct
A: Correct.
Q: This is No.4 again.
A: Oh, I see it. All I did was just move
them around.
Q: When you say “he”, who is the “he” you’re
referring to?
A: No, I said “me”.
Q: Oh.
A: All I did was move them around, that’s
all. Different exposures. See the difference?
Q: Yes.
A: Darker. Lighter. Darker. Lighter.
Q: And, so, you would say that X-ray No. 5
was taken roughly at the same time as X-ray No. 4?
A: Absolutely.
Q: Can you look at No. 6, please? I'll ask a
similar question.
A: Okay That’s a better quality film.
Absolutely.
Q; Are you the person who took the X-ray of
No. 6?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Is there any marking on the film, other
than the fragments themselves, that helps you
identify that as being an X-ray that you, yourself,
took?
A: No, sir.
Q: Is there a reason that you did not use
your metal marker -
A: I was told not to.
Q: Did Dr.-
Let me finish the question.Then -
A: Go ahead.
Q: - you can answer it.
Was there any reason that you did not use
the metal marker that you had used in the previous
X-rays?
A: Yes, because he saw it that night, and he
knew it belonged to me-And he stated. “I better
not see it on these films.”
Q: And that was Dr. Ebersole who said it?
A- : Absolutely. Correct.
Did anyone else hear Dr. Ebersole say
that?
A: No.
Q: When -
A: It was said only in my presence.
Q: On the 23rd when you took the X-rays of
the skull fragments, was there any other person,
besides you and Dr. Ebersole, present?
A: No.
Q: You were about to say something else?
A: You sure of the date? Was it the 23rd, or
22nd?
Q: If I said 22nd, I meant -
A: You said - No, you said 23rd.
Q: Yes. I’m referring to the time that you
took the X-rays of these fragments.
A: Oh, okay. Fine.
Q: Is that-
A: That’s correct.
Q: okay.
MR. GUNN: All right. Could We look now
at X-ray No. 7, please?
Would you like to sit down?
THE WITNESS: No, that’s all right.You
m can hear my back.
BY MR. GUNN:
Mr. Custer, arc you able to identify X-ray
No.7?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Could you tell me what that is, please?
A: That was a upper portion of the abdomen
taken on President Kennedy.
Q: How are you able to identify that?
A: My U.S. Naval marker.
Q: That’s the markings on the side, the -
A: On the left side.
Q: -the date and the -
A: Right. Corrcect.
Q: - name of U.S. Naval Academy or - I’m
sorry.
A: Naval Hospital.
Q: Bethesda Hospital.
A: U.S. Naval Hospital. Bethesda, Maryland.
Q: Previously, you referred to your own
unique marker. Do you see that anywhere on the
X-ray?
A: No. I was caught again.
Q: Did Dr. Ebersole ask you at any time on
the night of the 22nd not to use that marker?
A: Yes.
Q: When did he ask you not to use that?
A: When I took this film. He saw it, and
made me take it off.
Q: Are you able to estimate or explain when
you were able to use your own metal marking, and
when you were not able to use it?
A: On the skulls only.
Q: Can you identify in the X-ray that you’re
looking at now, No. 7. whether there are - whether
the internal organs arc still present in the body?
A: There has to be colon, because this is all
fecal material. You can see it. This is all
colon.
Q: Other than the colon, are you able to
to identify any other internal organs that are still
present?
A: Not really.You - Could be kidneys
.....
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/arrb/medical_testimony/pdf/Custer_10-28-97.pdf

 

[Jumbo]

I really like REH but I think I might have to put him on the ignore list as whenever I read his stuff I feel that I belong in the 'special class'