The real legacy of Trump

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Pessimistic

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3 years ago I told you that the biggest threat of trump is his impact on the rest of the world. The rise of autocracy with the americans no longer pushing the world to embrace democracy and multilateralism. Its created a mass vacuum and autocracy always fills it up as democracy is fragile.

despite the share of democratic countries continually rising ever since the end of the world war this trend has now not only stopped but started to reverse. We have lost eight countries to democracy this past year. this is what we should be talking about. Not US health care. Not minor wars in the middle east. not even climate change. The turn back to autocracy is a fundamental change in humanity and its growing. It will change the course of the human race for the worse if we dont stop it now.

Didnt americas efforts to impose democracy on the CCCP result in the most unequal country on earth? Not sure the real aim is democracy
 

Balls In

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3 years ago I told you that the biggest threat of trump is his impact on the rest of the world. The rise of autocracy with the americans no longer pushing the world to embrace democracy and multilateralism. Its created a mass vacuum and autocracy always fills it up as democracy is fragile.

despite the share of democratic countries continually rising ever since the end of the world war this trend has now not only stopped but started to reverse. We have lost eight countries to democracy this past year. this is what we should be talking about. Not US health care. Not minor wars in the middle east. not even climate change. The turn back to autocracy is a fundamental change in humanity and its growing. It will change the course of the human race for the worse if we dont stop it now.

Sorry but how is this Trump's fault?
 

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DaRick

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Trump's real legacy is that in the minds of many Americans, he represented a perceived opportunity to fight back against a rotten political system that was turning the US into a worse version of Mexico. No other US president had really been that since Roosevelt. By being that, I reckon that he delayed the political reckoning that faces orthodox Republicans, who frankly are impotent on cultural issues and have failed to conserve anything of value. It seems to me that very few Americans under 40 want what the orthodox Repubs have been selling since Reagan's time.
 

Farmer2Goggin

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I do think the Feds should consider sending in soldiers to WA if this continues.
Aren't you the clown that wants to deny "uneducated people" the vote?
Now you're advocating sending in soldiers to a state where the majority of citizens support the State Governments Covid stance - in a thread bemoaning the end of Democracy?
 

Seeds

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Aren't you the clown that wants to deny "uneducated people" the vote?
Now you're advocating sending in soldiers to a state where the majority of citizens support the State Governments Covid stance - in a thread bemoaning the end of Democracy?
Nope i dont want to deny anyone a vote. Must have me mixed up with someone else.

and the soldiers comment is said in jest.
 

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Seeds

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They pretty much fixed the election for Yeltsin in 1996, so I'd respectfully disagree.
Well that would be idiotic reasoning. For one, that election was 5 years after the soviet union fell. Two) infuencing an election result is completely different to influencing how government/society/economy is initially set up.
 

DaRick

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Well that would be idiotic reasoning. For one, that election was 5 years after the soviet union fell. Two) infuencing an election result is completely different to influencing how government/society/economy is initially set up.
Remember that Yeltsin had been in power since 1991. That the US would rig an election to keep him in power (despite his manifest unpopularity) suggests that he was quite pliable to US influence. This is because the US still saw Russia as a threat - if Yeltsin wasn't at all pliable to US influence, the US would therefore have not gone out of their way to keep him in power. I mean, why would you keep a threat in power?

This implies that the US had at least some influence on how Russia's government/society/economy were set up prior to 1996.
 

Sweet Jesus

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3 years ago I told you that the biggest threat of trump is his impact on the rest of the world.
And you're claiming vindication on this? What about China?

The rise of autocracy with the americans no longer pushing the world to embrace democracy and multilateralism. Its created a mass vacuum and autocracy always fills it up as democracy is fragile.

despite the share of democratic countries continually rising ever since the end of the world war this trend has now not only stopped but started to reverse. We have lost eight countries to democracy this past year. this is what we should be talking about. Not US health care. Not minor wars in the middle east. not even climate change. The turn back to autocracy is a fundamental change in humanity and its growing. It will change the course of the human race for the worse if we dont stop it now.

Which democracies have failed "because of Trump"?
 

HairyO

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Aren't you the clown that wants to deny "uneducated people" the vote?
Now you're advocating sending in soldiers to a state where the majority of citizens support the State Governments Covid stance - in a thread bemoaning the end of Democracy?
The moronic beliefs of West Australians is the perfect example of why stupid people shouldnt be allowed to vote.

Pandering to the xenophobic fears of the populace is not good government.

So too in QLD. Im sure the borders will open up within days of the election being over. Despite the senior health officials saying the protections arent needed now.
 

Todman

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5:15 " I think people used the false notion that America is an honest broker. And they really put all their eggs into that basket saying that we have to show that we are impartial but America is not impartial, America job is to look after the interests of Americans."
 

Ned_Flanders

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I think the real legacy of Donald Trump are all the Middle East peace treaties.

the minnow ones are irrelevant IMO. The one with the Saudi's will matter, BUT my question is if its gunna reign in the princes and their funding of terrorism. the saudi's have been a staunch US ally for decades, but the "oh thats not us, he's just a distant cousin" excuse for quasi state funded terrorism has always been allowed.

if this funding is shut down and policed (and enforced) by the Saudis, then we have something to be happy about
 

DaRick

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I think the real legacy of Donald Trump are all the Middle East peace treaties.

Peace agreements are certainly not bad things, but foreign policy rarely dominates the thinking of domestic voters.

It's a bit like Keating thinking that some secret deal with Suharto somehow represented great politics, when in reality the electorate just didn't care.

As I noted earlier, Trump's real legacy is that he represented, in the minds of many Americans, a potential opportunity to fight back against a rotten political system, much like Roosevelt did. Unfortunately, he will not stand alongside Roosevelt in the history books because he failed to grasp this opportunity, and indeed has largely governed like an orthodox Repub president, with a bit more bombastic rhetoric here and a bit more administrative dysfunction there.
 

DaRick

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Lol why is it that people with no background in geopolitics think the middle east is so important? Its a largely irrelevant backwater.
You understand that the Middle East has oil, extremism and terrorism, right? Lots of it, in fact.

That's why multiple great and regional powers (US, Russia, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Egypt, Turkey) are tied up in the region, even though I wouldn't suggest that all of these powers play a particularly constructive role.

For example, the US, Trump included, has been dumb enough to get in bed with the Saudis and antagonise Russia/Iran, even though 1) the latter two export plenty of oil (and Iran could export much more if it wasn't sanctioned) and 2) the Saudis export Islamic extremism far more than Iran does, despite the latter's unpleasantness. I would not seek to remove the House of Saud, because I think the Saudi public are even crazier.

The first thing I would do, to prevent any resultant Saudi oil embargo from being damaging, is to slip the likes of Iran and Nigeria money (through third parties if necessary) to develop their oil industry, which would probably make Iran more amenable to building relations with the US. Stopping punitive behaviour against Venezuela and helping them rebuild their oil industry wouldn't be the worst idea either. After that, my allegiance would lean more towards Iran, while remaining outwardly friendly with the Saudis.

However, If I then found out that Saudi Arabia or Saudi nationals were committing terrorist acts overseas or funding extremist mosques/madrassas, I wouldn't respond with sanctions, because that would wreck relations, cause an oil embargo and destabilise the regime. Rather, I reckon a smarter method would be to subtly purchase a bit more oil from their enemies (Iran/Russia) or from other parties (like Nigeria) and give Iran some shiny new weaponry that would place them ahead of the Saudis in the technological arms race. If there's one thing the Saudis hate the idea of, it's Iran being the more dominant power in the Middle East. Hopefully, the Saudis get the message. If they don't, then there'll be a new kingmaker in the Middle East. If they still respond with an embargo, sucks to be them, because the US will find it easier to shift suppliers than they do right now.

The Israelis wouldn't be overly pleased with the idea of the US becoming closer with Iran, but I don't think the US should be as beholden to Israel as it is, in terms of funding, weapons sales and outward support. Sure, Israel should still be an ally (they are technologically adept and are popular enough in the US to not ditch), but they don't really need special protection anymore; not with them having more formal allies around them and the Saudis as informal allies. Plus, they've developed a pretty handy defence industry themselves.
 
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