Analysis The rebuild of Carlton and Brisbane and their future prospects

[Bazza97]

Yeah I'd agree with that. I don't think Bolton will really be judged on wins and losses until 2019. We need to continue to bolster the midfield and have a functioning forward line

Even though your wins decreased from 7 to 6 this year, I feel that your more likely to improve your position on the ladder then back in 2016 when you exceeded expectations and finished outside the bottom 4. Many people including myself thought you'd finish back inside the bottom 4 in 2017.

Will be interesting to see Carlton's movements in the trade period. Kelly and Hopper are the two more prominent players that have been linked to Carlton. The midfield certainly needs to be bolstered so if you can get yourself a Kelly or a Hopper or another promising midfielder then that would be great.

I'm assuming next season Carlton will play with a more attacking element so I think your forward line will benefit from this and I can see the improvement with the personnel in your forward half as well. McKay and Pickett should play a lot more next year and both are certainly talented players, Wright and Lamb are solid forwards to have for now, Casboult has improved his set shot goal kicking and Charlie Curnow looks like he will be a very good player. Seeing how much improvement there will be in Carlton's forward half as well as the changes in their defensive game style will be interesting to see and we should get a first glimpse of it during the JLT series in 2018.

 

[PieLebo87]

Neither side has actually finished above Collingwood in over 10 years, yet pressure seems to be on Buckley/Collingwood next season. Hmmmm perspective...

 

[TooBlue14]

Neither side has actually finished above Collingwood in over 10 years, yet pressure seems to be on Buckley/Collingwood next season. Hmmmm perspective...

That's because your idiot coach keeps coming out with statements like "if Collingwood aren't playing finals in 2017 I should be sacked". Lol.

 

[PieLebo87]

That's because your idiot coach keeps coming out with statements like "if Collingwood aren't playing finals in 2017 I should be sacked". Lol.

I guess just not setting expectations and remaining s**t works better

 

[ShadeyP]

With these two sides playing against each other next week, I thought I'd make a thread regarding the rebuild these two sides have undertaken as well as their future prospects.

Firstly I'll talk about Brisbane.

After 16 games, Brisbane have 3 wins, a percentage of 69.1, an average of 82 points scored per game and 119 conceded.

In Fagan's first year at the helm, the Lions have improved on their scoring per game from last year slightly when they averaged 80 points scored and also improved on their points conceded when they averaged 131 points conceded per game.

The Lions are also on the same amount of wins they got last year. With games against Carlton, WC, WB, GC, Melbourne and NM, I reckon Brisbane will win at least 2 more games possibly 3. This year has been an improvement on last year and a step in the right direction for the Lions and if they can get a couple more wins to end the season, they can then enter 2018 with a confidence that they can finish outside the bottom 4.

My hope for Brisbane in 2018 is to continue to tighten up defensively to ensure improved competitiveness in games, further improve their scoring, further exposure and improvement in its players under 23 years of age and to get close to 10 wins for the season in order to build on 2018 for a possible finals appearance in 2019.

Right now, I see the Lions finals window potentially opening in 2019 but more realistically 2020, which is the year I expect the Lions to make the finals with no excuses. The talented under 23 brigade the Lions have now headlined by players such as McStay, Cutler, Taylor, Andrews, Schache, Hipwood, Mathieson, Witherden, Berry and McCluggage. Beams, Rich, Zorko and Rockliff (should he stay) would also provide a solid experienced unit by the time their predicted finals window opens in the next 2-3 years. Brisbane's spine at both ends looks very promising especially with Andrews and McStay down back while Hipwood and Schache up front should prove to be a potent combination.

I'm pretty bullish on the Lions future, the Gabba might start to rock again and prove to be a bit of a cauldron for interstate teams. How far the Lions can go under Fagan will be determined in the next few years when they should become a finals outfit.

Now onto Carlton.

The Blues have 5 wins, a percentage of 82.3, an average of 73 points scored per game and 88 conceded.

This is now Bolton's second year and they have improved slightly on last years output in terms of scoring per game (71 points scored per game in 2016) and points conceded (90 points conceded per game in 2016).

Carlton have probably exceeded expectations in terms of the amount of wins they have already attained as well as their general competitiveness in most games. For the rest of the year, Carlton play Brisbane, Geelong, Essendon, WC, Hawthorn and Sydney. That is a tough fixture, but it should be a good learning experience for this developing team. They might only win 1 game for the rest of the year maybe 2 but the Blues are heading in the right direction under Bolton. The Blues will probably finish in the bottom 4 but they will learn a fair bit from this year and as they mature as a side, they should be able to win the games that hang in the balance but have let slip which has happened a few times this season.

My hope for Carlton in 2018 is to improve their scoring power, play with more risk as they start to build on their defensive foundations, further exposure and improvement to its players drafted from the last few years and like Brisbane, get close to winning 10 games and build on a positive 2018 season with a possible finals appearance in 2019.

I see Carlton's finals window as similar to Brisbane with a potential opening in 2019 but more realistically they should be a finals side in 2020. Carlton's under 23 brigade for me is headlined by Cripps, Pickett, Marchbank, J Silvagni, McKay, Weitering, C Curnow, Cuningham, Williamson, Fisher, Macreadie and SPS. Carlton's defence looks like it will be its strong point by the time this team reaches its peak with Jones, Weitering, Marchbank, Plowman, Docherty, Macreadie and Williamson providing the Blues with a mix of intercept marking, key and hybrid defenders and rebounding power.

I feel like Carlton's defensive foundations are set, but I do have question marks in the future regarding their midfield stocks and scoring power up forward. It will be interesting to see who they recruit in the draft and trade period. Like Brisbane, Carlton have a good future ahead and should be finalists in a few years and how far they can go will be determined by the direction they go under Bolton in the next few seasons.

What I will say is that the question marks I have over Carlton's midfield stocks and scoring power in the future is the reason why I'm more confident over Brisbane's future prospects atm. My opinion could change though in the next couple of years, as a lot can happen in that timeframe. I look forward to seeing how the rebuild of these two teams evolves and how far each team can go under the current direction of Fagan and Bolton respectively.

TL;DR, feel free to discuss the rebuild of these two teams and your opinion of which team has the better future prospects atm

Very much like the cut of your jib ... well thought out , you know the game !
Both teams have formed a broad platform to launch over the next 5 years , how quickly that comes we shall see .
Carlton have more developed KPP's with a stronger back 6 forming but Brisbane has some very quick and slick ball movement .
Plus Hipwood could well be anything but so could C.Curnow
Both teams have been a pleasure to watch this year .
The game is in good shape .
Kudos BB and CF .

 

[nuey]

I guess just not setting expectations and remaining s**t works better

So by your reasoning collingwood are setting expectations, failing to meet them, and rewarding those at the helm for that failure

 

[TooBlue14]

I guess just not setting expectations and remaining s**t works better

We met ours this year. Beat Hawks, Coll and Ess with 14 players aged under 22. Good luck with Buckley. You deserve each other but understandably there isn't a lot of coaches on the market to go with instead. Huge pressure 2018. Whereas Bolton is being poached by other clubs and we're being forced to offer a traditionally contract instead of the member of staff one he's on now. I doubt anyone would offer Buckley a job right now but Eddie. Even the clubs review said sack but Eddie said no.

 

[BigFrizz36]

Interesting discussion on the Rush Hour tonight. James Brayshaw was rabbiting on about how could Brisbane claim their season as a success (his North bias is ridiculous - part of his discussion was that north were heroic and finished above Brisbane) He stated that Melbourne are a team on the rise not Brisbane. Chris Judd stated that clearly Brisbane were on the right path and you could see the green shoots up there like you could at Melbourne 2 years ago. It was fairly obvious as to which of the two had a bit of foresight and which had the goldfish memory mentality. Very comfortable with Juddy joining the Carlton board shortly as football director.

 

[bungalow_bill]

Carlton and Brisbane both have very clear plans going forward. Collingwood's approach appears haphazard and they are burdened by the immediate pressure to make finals (bringing in mature spuds) - Carlton and Brisbane are not.

 

[Requiem]

Interesting discussion on the Rush Hour tonight. James Brayshaw was rabbiting on about how could Brisbane claim their season as a success (his North bias is ridiculous - part of his discussion was that north were heroic and finished above Brisbane) He stated that Melbourne are a team on the rise not Brisbane. Chris Judd stated that clearly Brisbane were on the right path and you could see the green shoots up there like you could at Melbourne 2 years ago. It was fairly obvious as to which of the two had a bit of foresight and which had the goldfish memory mentality. Very comfortable with Juddy joining the Carlton board shortly as football director.

James Brayshaw has to be one of THE most annoying sporting personalities being promoted in recent times.

I cannot understate how much I hate hearing him during the Cricket coverage.

 

[PieLebo87]

So by your reasoning collingwood are setting expectations, failing to meet them, and rewarding those at the helm for that failure

Collingwood - Aimed to make the 8, failed by finishing 13th.

Cartlon - No expectations, finished 16th.

You pick.

 

[Chris Fagan]

Collingwood - Aimed to make the 8, failed by finishing 13th.

Cartlon - No expectations, finished 16th.

You pick.

I pick Carlton.

Better coach, better youth. They finished 16th because they are in the middle of a rebuild. I'm very confident that it is onwards and upwards for the Blues. Collingwood on the other hand are still in no man's land.

 

[nuey]

Collingwood - Aimed to make the 8, failed by finishing 13th.

Cartlon - No expectations, finished 16th.

You pick.

Bolton - coach for 2 years, inherited team finishing 18th
Fagan - coach for 1 year, inherited team finishing 17th
Buckley - ....

 

[PieLebo87]

We met ours this year. Beat Hawks, Coll and Ess with 14 players aged under 22. Good luck with Buckley. You deserve each other but understandably there isn't a lot of coaches on the market to go with instead. Huge pressure 2018. Whereas Bolton is being poached by other clubs and we're being forced to offer a traditionally contract instead of the member of staff one he's on now. I doubt anyone would offer Buckley a job right now but Eddie. Even the clubs review said sack but Eddie said no.

You're hanging your hat on beating a few teams with young players?

Potential is an ugly word in football, most people know that.

We won a Premiership with supposedly the youngest team in recent times. It didn't translate to a dynasty.

Unless Bolton can actually get Carlton to contention, I'm not going to be selling him off as some super coach.

Review said to sack Bucks and Eddie said no? Care to back that up somehow?

 

[PieLebo87]

Bolton - coach for 2 years, inherited team finishing 18th
Fagan - coach for 1 year, inherited team finishing 17th
Buckley - ....

2010 -
Collingwood = premiers
Carlton and Brisbane = cellar dwellers.

2017 -
Collingwood = 13th
Carlton and Brisbane = cellar dwellers.

....

 

[PieLebo87]

I pick Carlton.

Better coach, better youth. They finished 16th because they are in the middle of a rebuild. I'm very confident that it is onwards and upwards for the Blues. Collingwood on the other hand are still in no man's land.

Cool story. We'll see.

 

[nuey]

2010 -
Collingwood = premiers
Carlton and Brisbane = cellar dwellers.

2017 -
Collingwood = 13th
Carlton and Brisbane = cellar dwellers.

....

So what you're saying is Buckley has taken a premiership team to 13th. I can't argue with that.

Therein lies the reason why Buckley is facing heat that Bolton and Fagan aren't

 

[Chris Fagan]

2010 -
Collingwood = premiers
Carlton and Brisbane = cellar dwellers.

2017 -
Collingwood = 13th
Carlton and Brisbane = cellar dwellers.

....

Yep, and that's why Michael Voss and Leppa were both sacked. We realised we weren't up to scratch and fired two favourite suns. Collingwood on the other hand have been going downwards since Buckley's appointment without changing a single thing.

 

[adammania9]

I don't think Carlton's output meets hype so far - another really good key forward or inside mid and I'll be on board but as for now, I think the lid should remain on. They have some great foundations, but there's still some work to do.

 

[TooBlue14]

You're hanging your hat on beating a few teams with young players?

Potential is an ugly word in football, most people know that.

We won a Premiership with supposedly the youngest team in recent times. It didn't translate to a dynasty.

Unless Bolton can actually get Carlton to contention, I'm not going to be selling him off as some super coach.

Review said to sack Bucks and Eddie said no? Care to back that up somehow?

Just a hunch following a few rumours and that signing Buckley doesn't make any sense. If it was a football player and over 6 years they went down hill every year they wouldn't even get a rookie spot. It reeks of eddie.

 

[nuey]

I don't think Carlton's output meets hype so far - another really good key forward or inside mid and I'll be on board but as for now, I think the lid should remain on. They have some great foundations, but there's still some work to do.

I'm hoping to god the marketing department has learnt from 'they know we're coming' to keep the lid on

 

[TooBlue14]

I don't think Carlton's output meets hype so far - another really good key forward or inside mid and I'll be on board but as for now, I think the lid should remain on. They have some great foundations, but there's still some work to do.

Harry McKay and paddy dow/Cameron Rayner/josh Kelly should fix that very easily. And that SPS and fisher have played year 1 with limited preseason (as newbies do) and spent half the season wothoutbour two best inside mids in curnow and Cripps. How many Collingwood games would of been won this year without crisp and treloar laying you reckon.

 

[TooBlue14]

Collingwood - Aimed to make the 8, failed by finishing 13th.

Cartlon - No expectations, finished 16th.

You pick.

Most had us last for the last two years.

 

[BOMBERS 4 LIFE!!!!]

Brisbane have a better spread of talented kids but Carlton is not far behind.

 

[adammania9]

Harry McKay and paddy dow/Cameron Rayner/josh Kelly should fix that very easily. And that SPS and fisher have played year 1 with limited preseason (as newbies do) and spent half the season wothoutbour two best inside mids in curnow and Cripps. How many Collingwood games would of been won this year without crisp and treloar laying you reckon.

I reckon McKay will be a similar player to Peter Wright, I rated him highly as a teen, be good to see him replicate it at senior level. If the Blues land Kelly, I will be super impressed because they have immediately sped up the rebuilding process by a couple of years by having such an influential midfielder hit the field who will still play for 10+ years. Like I said, what the Blues currently have is pretty good, a couple more big moves might see some real big things come from Carlton.

Also what do you mean by that last question regarding Treloar + Crisp?