Analysis The rebuild of Carlton and Brisbane and their future prospects

[Donstuie]

Haven’t read the whole thread, but is this close to the mark?

Opposition supporter: Carlton are s**t
Carlton supporter: I take umbridge to being called s**t. Care to explain why you feel that way?
Opposition supporter: LOL Carlton supporters are so defensive!

 

[Hannabal]

Just want to point out, Melbourne have achieved absolutely zero as it stands.

You posting comparisons are akin to holding Melbourne’s recent progression as some sort of blueprint to achieving a multi-premiership dynasty.

As advice, you might need to start another thread that identifies which Melbourne players may be the next Scarlett, Chapman, Enright, Mitchell, Hodge or a Roughead.

Because at this point, it would have about the same relevance.

With respect, you're pointing out the bleeding obvious. Every Melbourne supporter knows we've achieved exactly zero since Roos took over.

That said, as a seasoned observer of all things the MFC I can say with hand on heart that this is the best list I've seen as a Melbourne supporter in my time following them (I wasn't born when we last won a flag).

And do I think we have on the list players that can emulate the trio of Cats and Hawthorn players you've mentioned ? Yes. Time will tell.

 

[doppleganger]

Most of the Carlton trades you have mentioned (apart from McGovern) are / were salary dumps or short term stop gaps who weren't expected to play AFL.

Surely you could have listed some trades that will be there for the longer term and are proven at AFL level?

That is the point.

Melbourne are recruiting established senior players, guys who have played 50+ AFL games and for the most of them they were 100+ games. You know what you are going to get from them as they are established senior AFL footballers.

Guys like Marchbank, Kennedy, Plowman, Pickett and Setterfield they aren’t proven senior players. None had played more than 20 games before the Blues traded for them.

They are the equivalent of Dom Tyson who Melbourne also traded for with less than 20 games to his name but was a highly rated kid.

They are just speculative trades, no guarantee they will be any better than Tyson was for Melbourne - a solid fringe player. Plenty of GWS early picks haven’t amounted to much.

And the Melbourne guy didn’t include Tyson in the list of quality senior players they traded in, as he wasn’t a quality senior player when they traded for him.

If you can provide a better list of established senior guys that Carlton have traded for be my guest.

You won’t because they haven’t traded for any.

 

[Monkey King]

This is really hard to know for sure.

Do you think Carlton or any other club would put up articles and videos on their site saying everyone is flat?

Do you think when questioned an AFL player would say everything sucks and the players are hating life?

Carlton players said this last year unprompted and almost surprised at how high morale was despite the loosing streak. Of course you can’t know for sure, but objectively the only information we have is that morale isn’t low.

 

[Gethelred]

Btw, for all the Carlton supporters who seemingly argue their rebuild is a raging success story, how come they sacked their CEO in 2017 ? Sacking a CEO usually indicates a club that knows they've been %^&$ing things up.

First of all, who's arguing that Carlton's rebuild is a raging success story? We're content to build slowly, but there is only a single measure of success in an AFL context.

Secondly, Stephen Trigg resigned, and we as a club will be forever grateful to the bloke for instigating the correct due process changes to ensure that each person who is recruited by the club - and we have changed a lot of people in a lot of positions, raising our spending within our football department from the lowest to the highest, as well as increasing fan interaction with the club - but when he left our financials were not great, and our membership was underwhelming given the size of our supporter base. Cain Liddle is fairly well known for being able to engage with a fan base, having been involved at Richmond when they went from having 35,960 in 2010 to 75,777 members in 2017. This has borne immediate dividends, given we're just off the back of a record membership in a spoon year, and we're already sitting at just above 41,000 members.

And the message from within the club has not changed.

 

[Fadge]

Haven’t read the whole thread, but is this close to the mark?

Opposition supporter: Carlton are s**t
Carlton supporter: I take umbridge to being called s**t. Care to explain why you feel that way?
Opposition supporter: LOL Carlton supporters are so defensive!

Maybe you should read the thread before making baseless assumptions...

 

[Monkey King]

Guys like Marchbank, Kennedy, Plowman, Pickett and Setterfield they aren’t proven senior players. None had played more than 20 games before the Blues traded for them.

I don’t even know why you’re still banging this drum. That Carlton spent their 2015-18 recruiting currency on recent first round draftees instead of quality senior players is obvious. So other than stating the obvious, I’m not really sure what the purpose of you listing those players was.

 

[OnceWeWereKings]

With respect, you're pointing out the bleeding obvious. Every Melbourne supporter knows we've achieved exactly zero since Roos took over.

That said, as a seasoned observer of all things the MFC I can say with hand on heart that this is the best list I've seen as a Melbourne supporter in my time following them (I wasn't born when we last won a flag).

And do I think we have on the list players that can emulate the trio of Cats and Hawthorn players you've mentioned ? Yes. Time will tell.

I would agree.
I think your post I was responding to was rather condescending in its tone, particularly with reflection on previous posts where you had stated Carlton were two years behind Melbournes build.
In context this would allow Carlton another two years to emerge the equivalents to the players you mention.
With another two years of trading and the ability to allow some of the existing trades to develop I believe we could identify a similar list having the same impacts within the Carlton FC.
However, I do disagree with your comment that it’s unrealistic for Carlton to be pushing to play finals in 2020 / 2021

 

[ManOfClay]

Exactly MOC. And that’s why I find it strange that you haven’t posted a similar reply to Fadge’s post intimating that there may be issues with morale.
Unless, of course......

Same principle applies. Stop playing the victim

 

[Hannabal]

Stephen Trigg resigned, and we as a club will be forever grateful to the bloke for instigating the correct due process changes to ensure that each person who is recruited by the club - and we have changed a lot of people in a lot of positions, raising our spending within our football department from the lowest to the highest, as well as increasing fan interaction with the club - but when he left our financials were not great, and our membership was underwhelming given the size of our supporter base. Cain Liddle is fairly well known for being able to engage with a fan base, having been involved at Richmond when they went from having 35,960 in 2010 to 75,777 members in 2017. This has borne immediate dividends, given we're just off the back of a record membership in a spoon year, and we're already sitting at just above 41,000 members.

And the message from within the club has not changed.

I'm going to link an article that contradicts your views.

I expect all I'll get in response is ridicule of Wilson. That's how these things typically play out.

Treatment of Carlton chief executive Steven Trigg shameful

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl...looks-to-be-under-threat-20171005-gyuvny.html

 

[ManOfClay]

Carlton players said this last year unprompted and almost surprised at how high morale was despite the loosing streak. Of course you can’t know for sure, but objectively the only information we have is that morale isn’t low.

Yeah I bet they said this unprompted and not without using their expansive media and public relations training.

Also unprompted they said they are going to take it one week at a time. And everybody is training the house down.

It’s the same at every club.

 

[Monkey King]

Yeah I bet they said this unprompted and not without using their expansive media and public relations training.

“He’s a rapist”. No I’m not. “Of course you’d say that”.

This level of inquiry is not for me thanks. I’ll just move right along.

 

[Gethelred]

I'm going to link an article that contradicts your views.

I expect all I'll get in response is ridicule of Wilson. That's how these things typically play out.

Treatment of Carlton chief executive Steven Trigg shameful

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl...looks-to-be-under-threat-20171005-gyuvny.html

I'll say what I said when that article came out: that this is one of her more heavily innuendo based articles, and contains little of actual substance with which to cast the amount of shade she does.

 

[ManOfClay]

“He’s a rapist”. No I’m not. “Of course you’d say that”.

This level of inquiry is not for me thanks. I’ll just move right along.

Some people just eat the spin from people trained to give it. You seem to be one of those

 

[Monkey King]

Some people just eat the spin from people trained to give it. You seem to be one of those

I’d tell you I’m not, but you‘d probably just reply “of course you’d say that” and go on believing what you want anyway

 

[Marcel Proust]

They want as many talented players in the similar age brackets all coming through at the same time.

Made perfect sense to go early, assuming the kid can play.

They might not end up with the secondary kid. The blues group think is the Adelaide pick is getting traded for a older player in the mid/late20s age bracket. I found it interesting so made a post about it:

draft&trading/forum/threads/ carlton-blues-to-trade-adelaides-first-round-pick-who-do-they-target

Any other facts you’d like to pass on?

Stocker may be a gun but he was overlooked 20 odd times before Carlton made the trade.

Is always risky for rebuilding clubs, to potentially give away Josh Kelly caliber type, pick one or two talents; Salem is very good but Melbourne would be even more dangerous on paper with Kelly alongside Viney, Oliver, Gawn and co.

 

[10571z]

Yeah I bet they said this unprompted and not without using their expansive media and public relations training.

Also unprompted they said they are going to take it one week at a time. And everybody is training the house down.

It’s the same at every club.

Spot on. They need to display absolute positivity otherwise the media will tear them to shreds!

 

[Thetrader15]

Only if you’re silly enough to think there is any sort of parity in players’ salaries. I guess the entire bulldogs list was low in morale in 2016 knowing Boyd’s salary.

At least he was playing

 

[Gethelred]

Spot on. They need to display absolute positivity otherwise the media will tear them to shreds!

... because the media has been so very positive and optimistic about Carlton over the course of 2018.

 

[doppleganger]

I don’t even know why you’re still banging this drum. That Carlton spent their 2015-18 recruiting currency on recruiting recent first round draftees instead of quality senior players is obvious. So other than stating the obvious, I’m not really sure what the purpose of you listing those players was.

Because for mine it is a glaring failure in Carlton’s current ‘rebuild’.

It is a path Melbourne followed back in late 2000s, they were happy to trade off valued senior players for picks, delist the old blokes and it was sold as ‘happy days’ because they had a massive glut of first round picks.

Yet come 2013 they were again at rock bottom and having to start again.

They didn’t make the same mistakes again, so whilst they still focused on the top end of the draft through 13-15 bringing in talented top 10 rated kids like Tyson, Salem, Petracca, Brayshaw, Oliver and Weideman

They also brought in senior players like Cross, Vince, Harry O, J.Garlett, Melksham.

And paid top dollar to bring in a senior experienced coach to teach them how to play.

The Dees didn’t again just go all in on the draft picks, and this build looks much more successful.

 

[10571z]

... because the media has been so very positive and optimistic about Carlton over the course of 2018.

Would it have been better or worse if the players didn’t display a positive outlook to the media

 

[Gethelred]

Would it have been better or worse if the players didn’t display a positive outlook to the media

I don't disagree.

Just, see precious little difference between that and the media nearly ubiquitously tearing strips off the club for the results and the negative gameplan, for the cliches and supposedly for being to blame for poor Friday night ratings - - and quite possibly the poor match attendances across the board.

It's like watching a horror movie. At some point, the jump scares reach a point of diminishing returns.

 

[OnceWeWereKings]

Same principle applies. Stop playing the victim

Where does 'playing the victim' apply to my post?
I don't know what principle you are applying, but more to the point, I don't believe you do either.

 

[Gethelred]

Because for mine it is a glaring failure in Carlton’s current ‘rebuild’.

It is a path Melbourne followed back in late 2000s, they were happy to trade off valued senior players for picks, delist the old blokes and it was sold as ‘happy days’ because they had a massive glut of first round picks.

Yet come 2013 they were again at rock bottom and having to start again.

They didn’t make the same mistakes again, so whilst they still focused on the top end of the draft through 13-15 bringing in talented top 10 rated kids like Tyson, Salem, Petracca, Brayshaw, Oliver and Weideman

They also brought in senior players like Cross, Vince, Harry O, J.Garlett, Melksham.

And paid top dollar to bring in a senior experienced coach to teach them how to play.

The Dees didn’t again just go all in on the draft picks, and this build looks much more successful.

... you don't think Mark Neald had something to do with it? You don't think the quality of those selected by Melbourne between 2005 and 2010 had something to do with it???

Granted, Carlton's draftees at this point look promising at best, but it isn't just SOS working for us in our recruiting. We have Brodie, Agresta, Daniel Lloyd; diverse people from a number of different backgrounds, all of whom possess significant credentials for drafting and recruiting, all of whom come highly regarded. We'll see, I suppose - and it's certainly fine to be skeptical, given our past recruiting blunders - but it wasn't just the pattern of recruiting kids in the hope that when they come good they'll be the salve that hurt Melbourne, it was poor development and recruiting.

We'll see.

 

[ManOfClay]

Where does 'playing the victim' apply to my post?
I don't know what principle you are applying, but more to the point, I don't believe you do either.

My post was quite neutral and merely pointing out the cliches AFL players trot out.

You whinged because I said it to you and not fadge.