Analysis The rebuild of Carlton and Brisbane and their future prospects

[chunkylover53]

For those Carlton supporters crying out for informed analysis and rationale to support our not so positive opinions on Carlton's future, I hereby provide to you Exhibit A, Your Honour.

This neutral poster (Melbourne supporter) went to great lengths to provide rationale behind their assessment in July 2017, only to receive the following examples of responses from Carlton supporters.

I acknowledge I have selected parts of longer responses, but nonetheless the responses are indeed direct quotes.

So, Carlton supporters, don't go crying foul if you think this thread has degenerated into an unfair opportunity for non-believers to kick Carlton whilst they are down. It seems that regardless of how much thought and energy the impartials amongst us put into our posts, we are all met with the same responses.

You've shortened my post so I'll cop the heat and say I misread my beloved Blues and I was wrong - pretty good analysis by old mate in hindsight.

Nonetheless It doesn't change the fact that even at this glorious time of year you enjoy trawling through Carlton related Bigfooty drama analysing how s**t they are. Go outside mate, or back to work - anything goes for the next few weeks! Enjoy!!

 

[OnceWeWereKings]

They might not end up with the secondary kid. The blues group think is the Adelaide pick is getting traded for a older player in the mid/late20s age bracket. I found it interesting so made a post about it:

draft&trading/forum/threads/ carlton-blues-to-trade-adelaides-first-round-pick-who-do-they-target



Stocker may be a gun but he was overlooked 20 odd times before Carlton made the trade.

Is always risky for rebuilding clubs, to potentially give away Josh Kelly caliber type, pick one or two talents; Salem is very good but Melbourne would be even more dangerous on paper with Kelly alongside Viney, Oliver, Gawn and co.

You're still applying could & would's. We wont know if this specific trade is successful until a number of things play out.
I could make a similar would or could argument to say that Melbourne may not have / will be more successful with Kelly over Salem or vice versa.

Perhaps when Melbourne are fully in a position to challenge carrying 5 or 6 A graders may be too difficult to do in context of salary cap pressure.
Similar to GWS having to off-load Sheil etc.
Maybe having a Salem on $400k along with your $700+ A graders is the right formula.

 

[OnceWeWereKings]

My post was quite neutral and merely pointing out the cliches AFL players trot out.

You whinged because I said it to you and not fadge.

I don't want to play with the 10 year olds anymore, see ya.

 

[Fadge]

You've shortened my post so I'll cop the heat and say I misread my beloved Blues and I was wrong - pretty good analysis by old mate in hindsight.

Nonetheless It doesn't change the fact that even at this glorious time of year you enjoy trawling through Carlton related Bigfooty drama analysing how s**t they are. Go outside mate, or back to work - anything goes for the next few weeks! Enjoy!!

Hardly trawling. I started at page 1 of this thread and it took me all the way until page 2 to find some posts to prove my point.

But I really do appreciate your concern.

 

[LoungeLizard]

Hang on sec, why didn’t you continue to bold “afford spending a top 10 pick on”
Which would then make the statement made correct.

Oh crap, my bad, i should have realised you only offered a 4th round for him, sorry.

 

[OnceWeWereKings]

Oh crap, my bad, i should have realised you only offered a 4th round for him, sorry.

I think the proposal would have included next years first, the number one pick (our only pick within the top 10) this year wasn't going to be used from all reports. No need to be sorry.

 

[LoungeLizard]

I think the proposal would have included next years first, the number one pick (our only pick within the top 10) this year wasn't going to be used from all reports. No need to be sorry.

So you don't actually know what the proposal was then, but decided do have a dig anyway?

 

[doppleganger]

... you don't think Mark Neald had something to do with it? You don't think the quality of those selected by Melbourne between 2005 and 2010 had something to do with it???

Yes appointing an inexperienced coach to head up the rebuild was another flawed move the Dees made.

Granted, Carlton's draftees at this point look promising at best, but it isn't just SOS working for us in our recruiting. We have Brodie, Agresta, Daniel Lloyd; diverse people from a number of different backgrounds, all of whom possess significant credentials for drafting and recruiting, all of whom come highly regarded. We'll see, I suppose - and it's certainly fine to be skeptical, given our past recruiting blunders - but it wasn't just the pattern of recruiting kids in the hope that when they come good they'll be the salve that hurt Melbourne, it was poor development and recruiting.

We'll see.

As proved in previous failed builds, a top 10 draft pick isn’t a guarantee of anything.

All Carlton fans have at present is a list of highly rated kids and the likelihood is that plenty won’t make it...and because they haven’t been brining in any senior players they will also need to start replacing Simpson, Murphy and Kroozer soon too.

 

[Gethelred]

...the likelihood is that plenty won’t make it...

Why is this the likely scenario?

 

[OnceWeWereKings]

So you don't actually know what the proposal was then, but decided do have a dig anyway?

It’s a forum, you post something, someone replies. That’s how it’s supposed to work.

 

[ManOfClay]

It’s a forum, you post something, someone replies. That’s how it’s supposed to work.

Unless you don’t like what they say. Then you just whinge

 

[LoungeLizard]

It’s a forum, you post something, someone replies. That’s how it’s supposed to work.

You have a dig at me saying if i bolded more, then it would have made the post correct, then after a couple of post you have shown you don't know what's correct.
Carry on mate.

 

[10571z]

How many ex GWS players have been
Brought in now?

Im guessing around 12?

 

[chunkylover53]

Hardly trawling. I started at page 1 of this thread and it took me all the way until page 2 to find some posts to prove my point.

But I really do appreciate your concern.

Just have a break from the mighty Blues and go outside mate. You will feel better.

 

[Gethelred]

How many ex GWS players have been
Brought in now?

Im guessing around 12?

Read the Maliface post I've left a few pages back, then get back to me on your solution for filling the list paces required to turn over 43 list positions in three seasons.

I'll be eager to hear your in depth reply as to what Carlton should've done instead.

 

[10571z]

Read the Maliface post I've left a few pages back, then get back to me on your solution for filling the list paces required to turn over 43 list positions in three seasons.

I'll be eager to hear your in depth reply as to what Carlton should've done instead.

Amazing other sides have rebuilt without bringing in mostly reserves standard players from one club.

Honestly like I said maybe 1 of these GWS blokes would be getting a game in the grand final team. Picking up piles of dead wood isn’t a good draft tactic.

Again please share where this “salary dump” helped Carlton. Seems most other teams land players without salary dumps

 

[Fadge]

Read the Maliface post I've left a few pages back, then get back to me on your solution for filling the list paces required to turn over 43 list positions in three seasons.

I'll be eager to hear your in depth reply as to what Carlton should've done instead.

How many of those 43 list positions that have been turned over were players selected by the current regime?

 

[Fadge]

Perhaps when Melbourne are fully in a position to challenge carrying 5 or 6 A graders may be too difficult to do in context of salary cap pressure.
Similar to GWS having to off-load Sheil etc.
Maybe having a Salem on $400k along with your $700+ A graders is the right formula.

And if all of these top 10 draft picks that Carlton have been accumulating turn into half the players you hope they do, won't Carlton be in this very position?!?

 

[OnceWeWereKings]

Unless you don’t like what they say. Then you just whinge

I told you MOC, I don’t want to play with the 10 year olds anymore. There are kids your own age that you can play with, go and build your sandcastles somewhere else.

 

[ManOfClay]

I told you MOC, I don’t want to play with the 10 year olds anymore. There are kids your own age that you can play with, go and build your sandcastles somewhere else.

Case in point

 

[OnceWeWereKings]

And if all of these top 10 draft picks that Carlton have been accumulating turn into half the players you hope they do, won't Carlton be in this very position?!?

Yes, possibly. That’s going to be one of the challenges Carlton may have to overcome.

Perhaps it’s a reason Carlton haven’t gone out and recruited some of those senior players you speak of.

Perhaps Carlton may have heavily front loaded the contracts of our developing youngsters and will then concentrate on bringing in the established senior position fillers when the youngsters have matured to a point that they believe they can challenge.

With the evolution of free agency perhaps Carlton are the first team to have the right formula to compete for a sustained period.

Completely cull the list, take your licks, garner the best young talent over a three to four year period, wait for the core group to be in the right age bracket, demonstrate to the the free agency market that you are going to have a bracket of three to five years to contend, pick the best free agency list fillers.....

Bob’s your uncle !!!!

 

[OnceWeWereKings]

Case in point

What do you want me to respond to MOC, you add nothing.

 

[OnceWeWereKings]

You have a dig at me saying if i bolded more, then it would have made the post correct, then after a couple of post you have shown you don't know what's correct.
Carry on mate.

Thanks for you permission.

 

[Gethelred]

How many of those 43 list positions that have been turned over were players selected by the current regime?

... which is relevant to the question I asked, how exactly?

In order to criticise the GWS multiplayer trades, you need to demonstrate a) that the players replaced could've stayed on the list for longer, and didn't need to be replaced, or b) lay out an alternative path to getting AFL depth in the same numbers required.

That's my issue.

 

[Gethelred]

Amazing other sides have rebuilt without bringing in mostly reserves standard players from one club.

Honestly like I said maybe 1 of these GWS blokes would be getting a game in the grand final team. Picking up piles of dead wood isn’t a good draft tactic.

Again please share where this “salary dump” helped Carlton. Seems most other teams land players without salary dumps

...

You are aware a club must make minimum TPP, correct? Again, how do you suggest we make the TPP floor without aggressively overpaying our players on potential?