Masqualero
Club Legend
- Jul 2, 2015
- 1,658
- 2,231
- AFL Club
- Carlton
I don't know much but getting the 6th best player in the 2018 draft at pick 19 must be good
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I don't know much but getting the 6th best player in the 2018 draft at pick 19 must be good
Because the numbers say that.Why is this the likely scenario?
Bear in mind, the attitude from your post suggested that they all are busts, rather than half of them.Because the numbers say that.
Even top 10-20 picks, 1 in 2 will fail to reach 100 games.
And only one in six will get to that AA type level.
In the next couple of seasons Carlton will start delisting some players drafted by SOS let alone all of the VFL quality senior salary dumps he traded for.
Look at the GWS, how many of their top 10 picks have actually amounted to anything?
For every Whitfield there is an O’Rourke, every Greene there is a Pickett etc.
Carlton fans should be only banking on half of their draft picks actually making it to become 100 gamers.
Who is the best draft pick SOS has taken?I don't know much but getting the 6th best player in the 2018 draft at pick 19 must be good
How many of those 43 list positions that have been turned over were players selected by the current regime?
So thats why all the blokes from GWS were brought in?...
You are aware a club must make minimum TPP, correct? Again, how do you suggest we make the TPP floor without aggressively overpaying our players on potential?
Lol, I think it's pretty clear to all the in the know posters that Stocker is at least the 6th best player in the draft.Who is the best draft pick SOS has taken?
Lets hope whoever was in charge of picking Curnow and Cripps rated this kid there.
SOS picking on Reidy again and taking his lunch money, sorry not sorryBrilliant trading by your club
Firstly, Jaksch and Whiley were done by the previous regime under Malthouse (as part of the deal which lead to us taking Boekhurst), you'll get no arguments there that that was poor. Sumner, Phillips, Pickett were all part of what I'm talking about; they were extremely cheap, they were former first round picks and/or a project ruckman, and when you make 43 list changes in 3 years you need to find a way to get in more players to maximise your chances. Palmer, Lamb were both salary dumps; Lamb became a fruitful member of our 22 for the last three years, where Palmer was let go after a year.So thats why all the blokes from GWS were brought in?
Mark Whiley, Kristian Jaksch, Liam Sumner, Rhys Palmer, Andrew Phillips, Jed Lamb, Lachie Plowman, Caleb Marchbank, Jarrod Pickett, Matthew Kennedy, Setterfield.
Again maybe 1/2 of them would be getting a game at the current Premier. Add the other guys SOS has brought in Bugg, Fasolo ect and im sure well be looking back at this period the same as the previous one
I've said this before, and it's getting rather tiring.You can pay 95% of the salary cap. Its not that hard. You can front load contracts or bring in quality free agents.
Carlton fans should be only banking on half of their draft picks actually making it to become 100 gamers.
Bugg is interesting. I was speaking to a senior Melbourne coaching member post season and he said they delisted Bugg because of his contest work. For what Melbourne are building they thought he was too soft in contested situations. He was told and always gave the right answers about improving that aspect of his game, but never did.Bugg's been a part of a much stronger Melbourne 22 for the better part of 3-4 years; under what pretext do you suggest that he won't be getting a game or making a contribution?
For a start this comment works both ways:"Ultimately, when you spend your entire time looking for holes, it's all you'll ever see"Firstly, Jaksch and Whiley were done by the previous regime under Malthouse (as part of the deal which lead to us taking Boekhurst), you'll get no arguments there that that was poor. Sumner, Phillips, Pickett were all part of what I'm talking about; they were extremely cheap, they were former first round picks and/or a project ruckman, and when you make 43 list changes in 3 years you need to find a way to get in more players to maximise your chances. Palmer, Lamb were both salary dumps; Lamb became a fruitful member of our 22 for the last three years, where Palmer was let go after a year.
The others were the 'point' of most of the trades they were involved in. Marchbank, Plowman, Kennedy and Setterfield are all extremely talented, and the first three have shown a certain amount at AFL level in the past (less so Kennedy, but injuries will do that to you).
Bugg's been a part of a much stronger Melbourne 22 for the better part of 3-4 years; under what pretext do you suggest that he won't be getting a game or making a contribution? Fasolo's issues are mental; he's had problems with depression, but at his best he's AFL quality and he's hardly a wasted pick. Newman is a 25 year old midfielder that averages just a click under what Shaun Grigg averaged when he was traded to Richmond; you saying that's a poor idea?
Ultimately, when you spend your entire time looking for holes, it's all you'll ever see.
I've said this before, and it's getting rather tiring.
You cannot bring in quality free agents to a bottom ladder club without paying outrageous overs!!!
If we did that, we'd be compromising our salary cap, not immediately but in 4-5 years time, after some of our kids start to demonstrate their potential and put it on the park. If we paid outrageous overs to kids early in their contracts, that's what they come to accept, money for potential; imagine what they'd ask for - or, at least, their agents would ask for - if you paid them such outrageous overs early when they're not performing, after they've started.
That's the route to a stuffed TPP.
Instead of just lazily criticising the trades with 'Oh, Carlolton r GWS secondz', you have to either a) attack the notion that the players in house at the time the trades were made needed to be delisted, or you need to b) offer an alternative means of getting x amount of players in the door, or c) offer a third path I haven't seen. Most of the time in here, you've been unwilling to put in adequate work to demonstrate your view has any bearing whatsoever in reality, so forgive me if I won't hold my breath.
Yes it does, I wondered if someone would follow that metaphor!For a start this comment works both ways:"Ultimately, when you spend your entire time looking for holes, it's all you'll ever see"
If keep thinking there are no holes, eventually you will fall in one.
Now for the stuffed TPP.
If you don't hurry up and bring quality players into your team, the wages will clash, for me, i think you have already waited too long.
The drafts that have produced the most games of footy have been 1999 and 2001. This wasn’t because recruiters were better back then, the players coming through were.Also, that figure includes every single draft, ignoring the fact that drafting in the AFL has improved steadily every single year it's been run, and that includes the prejudiced drafts between 2009-2014. It's probably more a question for the drafts board, but if you confine those statistics into 5 year segments, do the statistics change for the better/worse?
My view is simple. You wont get anywhere bringing substandard players into a club over and over regardless of the reasoning.Firstly, Jaksch and Whiley were done by the previous regime under Malthouse (as part of the deal which lead to us taking Boekhurst), you'll get no arguments there that that was poor. Sumner, Phillips, Pickett were all part of what I'm talking about; they were extremely cheap, they were former first round picks and/or a project ruckman, and when you make 43 list changes in 3 years you need to find a way to get in more players to maximise your chances. Palmer, Lamb were both salary dumps; Lamb became a fruitful member of our 22 for the last three years, where Palmer was let go after a year.
The others were the 'point' of most of the trades they were involved in. Marchbank, Plowman, Kennedy and Setterfield are all extremely talented, and the first three have shown a certain amount at AFL level in the past (less so Kennedy, but injuries will do that to you).
Bugg's been a part of a much stronger Melbourne 22 for the better part of 3-4 years; under what pretext do you suggest that he won't be getting a game or making a contribution? Fasolo's issues are mental; he's had problems with depression, but at his best he's AFL quality and he's hardly a wasted pick. Newman is a 25 year old midfielder that averages just a click under what Shaun Grigg averaged when he was traded to Richmond; you saying that's a poor idea?
Ultimately, when you spend your entire time looking for holes, it's all you'll ever see.
I've said this before, and it's getting rather tiring.
You cannot bring in quality free agents to a bottom ladder club without paying outrageous overs!!!
If we did that, we'd be compromising our salary cap, not immediately but in 4-5 years time, after some of our kids start to demonstrate their potential and put it on the park. If we paid outrageous overs to kids early in their contracts, that's what they come to accept, money for potential; imagine what they'd ask for - or, at least, their agents would ask for - if you paid them such outrageous overs early when they're not performing, after they've started.
That's the route to a stuffed TPP.
Instead of just lazily criticising the trades with 'Oh, Carlolton r GWS secondz', you have to either a) attack the notion that the players in house at the time the trades were made needed to be delisted, or you need to b) offer an alternative means of getting x amount of players in the door, or c) offer a third path I haven't seen. Most of the time in here, you've been unwilling to put in adequate work to demonstrate your view has any bearing whatsoever in reality, so forgive me if I won't hold my breath.
Your view is excessively simple, and ignores pretty much everything said in counter.My view is simple. You wont get anywhere bringing substandard players into a club over and over regardless of the reasoning.
Again "extremely cheap" is stated. But that means nothing. You still traded them in and wasted a list spot.
"He is an upgrade on ...." This has been said about Fasolo for example but he isn't going to take your club anywhere. He may be an upgraded on a barely AFL standard player but having a small upgrade wont take you to finals.
Smedts, Fasolo, Bugg, Kerridge, Lang, Sumner, Plamer, Phillips, Lamb ect are the players SOS is bringing in. Are you surprised with names like that you've gone backwards over and over and had the worst season ever.
You build through the draft and hand pick talent as needed.
This comment here hits the nail fair and square on the head.Going absolutely all in on drafts and disregarding quality senior talent isn’t a proven recipe for success.
As a tangent to that, do you contribute more weight to Jolly and Ball's inclusion or Malthouse's implementation of his version of the Clarkson/Lyon press, which drove sides wide and forced them to either take their shots on goal from the boundary or to exhaust themselves trying to go through it?This comment here hits the nail fair and square on the head.
For all of the high draft picks GWS have had, four of their best and indeed most important players have been Ward, Davis, Mumford and Shaw - all experienced players who had proven themselves at AFL level who have played crucial roles for their club.
I look at my own team, and one of the major factors for our improvement between 2007/8/9 and 2010 was the recruitment of Jolly and Ball. Key missing pieces to the premiership jigsaw puzzle.
McGovern is the first player of this profile that Carlton have recruited, though he does have question marks over his durability and I reckon will be a solid citizen as opposed to a game changer, and until they do this seriously any improvement will only ever be marginal and they will continue to wallow in the bottom four.
Reckon it was a combination of both, but this thread probably isn't the place for that conversation.As a tangent to that, do you contribute more weight to Jolly and Ball's inclusion or Malthouse's implementation of his version of the Clarkson/Lyon press, which drove sides wide and forced them to either take their shots on goal from the boundary or to exhaust themselves trying to go through it?
Basically, was it cattle-driven or was it borne off the back of innovation?
See, I'd be of the argument that the analysis of any premiership team's rebuild is relevant to this thread, provided we're not bringing up examples of externally built lists with assets the rest of the competition lacked (WC in the nineties, Brisbane's threepeat).Reckon it was a combination of both, but this thread probably isn't the place for that conversation.
They might not end up with the secondary kid. The blues group think is the Adelaide pick is getting traded for a older player in the mid/late20s age bracket. I found it interesting so made a post about it:
draft&trading/forum/threads/ carlton-blues-to-trade-adelaides-first-round-pick-who-do-they-target
Stocker may be a gun but he was overlooked 20 odd times before Carlton made the trade.
Is always risky for rebuilding clubs, to potentially give away Josh Kelly caliber type, pick one or two talents; Salem is very good but Melbourne would be even more dangerous on paper with Kelly alongside Viney, Oliver, Gawn and co.
I'll just put my feet up on the couch and watch the Lions do incredible things this year.
Yep agreed its very simple.Your view is excessively simple, and ignores pretty much everything said in counter.
I'd write something more in depth, but it would be wasted as you wouldn't read it anyway.