Opinion The Rebuild Thread

[BlueTongue]

I haven't read many of the rebuild posts, but my 2 cents is that we should hang on for another year or two. I'm not against cutting some serial under performers, but a full cull isn't going to give us a better outcome anytime in the next 5-6 years.

I say we work harder with who we have this year (pushing some new recruits through to see how they respond to the challenge) , cut 3 or 4 from our list at the end of the year (and not necessarily our aging players who are still performing), and recruit well in the off season. Don't think we're too far away, just some confidence and disposal improvement required.

 

[Dramoth]

notice a few people have suggested we put kreuzer up for trade .............

think this would be a big mistake ..... given a decent run with no injuries kreuzer has the ability to be our no.1 ruckman for the next decade

agree you can turn mids over pretty quickly but the big men take time ...

A lot of people are short sighted and can only see Kreuzer as having the potential to get us a low pick in the draft. If we build the club around Kreuzer, we would be in a much better place than we are now. Instead, we have tried to build the club around midfielders and flankers.

I said elsewhere... build the spine right and the mids and flanks will sort themselves out.

For years we have been trying to slot people into the wrong spots on the spine. Trying to use a ruckman as a forward to save a spot so that we can slot in another flanker type. Using a mobile lead up the ground CHF as a FF and the guy who should have replaced Waite as the lead up CHF is playing in defence. Then we have Jamison stuck as our main tall defender. His shoulders are just about made of glass and the club needs to find a replacement for him sooner rather than later.

As for Warnock... seemed like a good idea when we got him, but in the end it's yet another failed experiment from the Ratten era that is biting us on the arse.

 

[Dramoth]

Was anyone else slightly concerned with what Malthouse said on Footy Classified last night about wanting to have another trade/draft period like we did last year, alluding to the fact that we will go after more players like Everitt, Docherty, Daisy rather than trying to accumulate high draft picks which would be my preferred option.

Nope... no problems at all... going after a load of draft picks means that we are picking up a bunch of 17-18 year old kids who definitely wouldnt be really ready to go for another 4-5 years and compete properly against fully grown men.

 

[The Blue Baggers]

A lot of people are short sighted and can only see Kreuzer as having the potential to get us a low pick in the draft. If we build the club around Kreuzer, we would be in a much better place than we are now. Instead, we have tried to build the club around midfielders and flankers.

I said elsewhere... build the spine right and the mids and flanks will sort themselves out.

For years we have been trying to slot people into the wrong spots on the spine. Trying to use a ruckman as a forward to save a spot so that we can slot in another flanker type. Using a mobile lead up the ground CHF as a FF and the guy who should have replaced Waite as the lead up CHF is playing in defence. Then we have Jamison stuck as our main tall defender. His shoulders are just about made of glass and the club needs to find a replacement for him sooner rather than later.

As for Warnock... seemed like a good idea when we got him, but in the end it's yet another failed experiment from the Ratten era that is biting us on the arse.

yes I agree .... you need a ruck / spine to build the club around .... kreuzer (ruck) & henderson (chb) are locks for the next 5 years - barring injuries - after this we are light on for keys that will be there in a couple of years ....

maybe watson ... needs to build strength but is already a nice kick from the backline and it would be fair to say we have alot of poor kicks in the team

maybe casboult ... hard player to read, takes a good contested mark then drops an uncontested mark .... hopefully more experience will improve consistency

you can pretty much pick up mids / flankers ready to go from the draft these days .... with cripps, menzel, buckley, docherty, even thomas and murphy should be around for another 5 years .. do not think it would take much to build from there

I have left gibbs out ... think he will get an eddie betts type offer to go home .... and for $750k+ he can ...

 

[goreds]

I haven't read many of the rebuild posts, but my 2 cents is that we should hang on for another year or two. I'm not against cutting some serial under performers, but a full cull isn't going to give us a better outcome anytime in the next 5-6 years.

I say we work harder with who we have this year (pushing some new recruits through to see how they respond to the challenge) , cut 3 or 4 from our list at the end of the year (and not necessarily our aging players who are still performing), and recruit well in the off season. Don't think we're too far away, just some confidence and disposal improvement required.

This...

 

[LordLucifer]

A lot of people are short sighted and can only see Kreuzer as having the potential to get us a low pick in the draft. If we build the club around Kreuzer, we would be in a much better place than we are now. Instead, we have tried to build the club around midfielders and flankers.

I said elsewhere... build the spine right and the mids and flanks will sort themselves out.

Stop stealing my lines.


Mathew Kreuzer is probably our biggest conundrum right now and it certainly hurts me to have to look at the guy in this light but we are not able to do anything else than look for the future right now. Has not returned from the knee injury anywhere near the player he was prior and now faces a chance of not returning well from this latest navicular injury. The medicos at the club are going to play a huge part in this one but if they have any inkling that he isn't going to make it, then we have to cut our losses now and see if we can engineer a decent trade.

 

[ShanDog]

Yeah to be honest, after some calm and considered thought, rather than emotionally driven thought, surely the best coarse of action for club regarding the list (leaving everything off field out of it) is a steady list turnover from here.

Identify where we need changes with a long-term view and cull 5, perhaps 6 players each year. Taking 10 kids through the draft and rookie lists each year is just going to create imbalance at the other end of the list and more problems in 7 or 8 years, hence the long term view is important.

Natural attrition, free agency and delistings means the best part of 8 or so players can be turned over without blinking an eye each year. This should be enough. Its the right draft selections and astute trading for players in the right age bracket that will ensure the club improves over time and balances the list.

 

[Sublime]

The players need to take it upon themselves to do something about the slide. Yes the club have left a lot to be desired in quite a few areas, but the players really need to hit the training track hard and bring that out onto the field. Gameplan and everything aside, the basic player skills have been well below AFL standard, and those improvements can only be made by the players.

 

[Dramoth]

Stop stealing my lines.


Mathew Kreuzer is probably our biggest conundrum right now and it certainly hurts me to have to look at the guy in this light but we are not able to do anything else than look for the future right now. Has not returned from the knee injury anywhere near the player he was prior and now faces a chance of not returning well from this latest navicular injury. The medicos at the club are going to play a huge part in this one but if they have any inkling that he isn't going to make it, then we have to cut our losses now and see if we can engineer a decent trade.

His return from the knee injury was because he was seen as such a bit part of the future of the club and the powers that be felt that if we had left him out for much longer, people would have started to stop buying memberships and stuff.

He is a franchise player. If he was in America, they would be building a club around him because of his loyalty and devotion to the club. He should have been left to play in the VFL for the rest of 2011 rather than rushing him back in to the senior side. If they had left him to play at lower levels, he would have found a natural balance in his body again and his knee wouldnt have been so stressed by being forced to play at the faster pace of AFL football. And he wouldnt have had all the issues in 2012 with his knee.

However, the powers that be decided that they needed him in the side and rushed him back in.

 

[Malifice]

I for one dont think we need a rebuild. But we do need to revamp the list, and address some glaring deficiencies that have been left neglected for waaaay too long. I honestly think we can turn this around very quickly.

However it IS time to make some tough calls. Remember when Hawthorn traded Croad (a favorite) to Freo for pick 1 (Hodge). Without Hodge, they wouldnt have their two most recent flags IMO.

Purely list wise I would:

• Trade Walker. Plenty of teams would be intrested, and he's worth a top 20 pick from either the new franchises or a team in the premiership window. It makes me sick to say it as I love 1AW and have been frustrated to see him (again) played in defence. The man needs to play on a wing or the HFF to take advantage of his biggest assets - speed, endurance and aerial ability. However he'd flourish at a team like Hawthorn, and it would give him his best chance of a flag before he retires in a few years. Might also be possible to send him to GWS (in a package deal) for Patton (something similar to the Shaw deal). We could offer Patton some serious coin (and game time) to convince him to come as well (assuming retirements of Judd, Scotland, Waite and losing Gibbs and Walker).
  
• Let Gibbs walk as a FA. Assuming we finish @ 12th this year, we should jag picks 6 and 7. Take either two tall marking forwards (if we cant prise Patton from GWS), or a Tall and a Mid if we can grab Patton.
  
• Letting Gibbs walk plus trading out 1AW (plus the imminent retirement of Waite, Scotland and Judd) will also free up cash to make a major FA/ GWS/ GCS raid at the end of 2015. Perfect time to hit them assuming we restock our list THIS year with kids (3/4 picks inside of the top 20). The expansion sides salary caps will tighten as the years roll on, and those guns will start attracting some serious offers from other clubs. Will be able to prise a few of those kids out.
  
• Keep Kruezer. Warnock is shit. Rest MK all damn year though to make sure his body is right for 2015

Flame away.

 

[Malifice]

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...ce-gibbs-go-20140414-zquoc.html#ixzz2ywzRxFc5

True, Carlton can keep Gibbs and bring in one tall, but removing the Gibbs money from the salary cap as well as introducing a second tall player from the prime of the draft would help expedite the rebuild of the list the club now accepts is necessary.

''There is no doubt you would be waiting on Gibbs now,'' said one club list manager. ''You would not sign him when they could potentially end up with pick two, three or four in the draft, and so the compensation they’d get would give them pick three and four or four and five or whatever it is.

"Would you get a better player at four or five than Bryce Gibbs? In this draft, particularly with the talls that are there, I would think you would.''

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...ce-gibbs-go-20140414-zquoc.html#ixzz2ywzRxFc5

Backs up what Im saying.

 

[Dramoth]

Our future spine should be (and includes our boy MK in the centre):

Giles: FB - tall and agile. If we can develop him properly he should be able to take on the majority of the full forwards out there.
Watson: CHB - Put some muscles on him and build up his strength through his quads and into his upper body and we will have someone who can wrestle those gorilla CHF's that are out there.
MK: Get his knee and his foot right over the course of the rest of the year and he should be good to go next year. If we feel the need to play him late this season, it is because both Warnock and Wood have been shot in the knees by irate supporters.
Henderson: A good roaming CHF who can swing up into defence if we feel that we are getting monstered up there. He will be able to run his direct opponent off his feet over the course of a game and keep going.
Casboult: The best we have for that lead up FF spot in the side. If we can convince him that he needs to be hitting packs hard, he will do it and a lot of opposition defenders will think twice about getting in his way.

At the moment, I think that the club is tied to playing Warnock because we paid so much for him originally and we have so much invested in him... to the point where he has pushed out 2 other rucks, one of who, as it turned out, would have been a much better option for us long term if we had kept him.

If we let Gibbs leave at the end of the year and trade his compo pick and 1AW to GWS for Patton, then Casboult becomes the third tall/second ruckman in the side and can then cause all sorts of drama for the opposition defense.

You will notice that Jamo and Waite arent part of my future spine. This is because in a couple of years when this spine is ready, they will be either gone (Waite) or just about gone (Jamison) and so I feel that we need to be pumping as much into the new guys as we possibly can while we have the older generation still available to help them out.

For the next couple of years... play Jamison as the third tall defender giving assistance to the kids coming through. We need to do this now... immediately because if Jamo does his shoulder again... he is gone as well and we are going to be stuck again with a bunch of kids and no one to give them tips and tricks during a game.

Waite I would play for the rest of this year as the third tall in the forward line... once again, doing the same with Casboult... providing hints and tips.

Our current spine is a shambles. We are either forced to play Henderson in defence where he is a much better option or play Watson in defence where he doesnt have the cutout of the experienced defender acting as the third tall.

 

[Cringle]

Just the thought of Patton is majgfsg8ryrafd;djivlmhfcsxa;fcnmd,csd'.avtgc

 

[Cringle]

Would play Jamison and Rowe as KPD for this year with Watson playing 3rd tall. Then slowing transition this over the next year or two (with the delisting of Rowe) playing Watson in KPD and Giles as the third tall until both Watson and Giles are ready to play both KPD. Jamison then becomes third tall.

 

[thylacine60]

Stop stealing my lines.

If there has been theft, Effendi, we shall slaughter man, woman and child until the cur is found and beaten to death in a less than secluded place.

 

[Jock]

I for one dont think we need a rebuild. But we do need to revamp the list, and address some glaring deficiencies that have been left neglected for waaaay too long. I honestly think we can turn this around very quickly.

However it IS time to make some tough calls. Remember when Hawthorn traded Croad (a favorite) to Freo for pick 1 (Hodge). Without Hodge, they wouldnt have their two most recent flags IMO.

Purely list wise I would:

• Trade Walker. Plenty of teams would be intrested, and he's worth a top 20 pick from either the new franchises or a team in the premiership window. It makes me sick to say it as I love 1AW and have been frustrated to see him (again) played in defence. The man needs to play on a wing or the HFF to take advantage of his biggest assets - speed, endurance and aerial ability. However he'd flourish at a team like Hawthorn, and it would give him his best chance of a flag before he retires in a few years. Might also be possible to send him to GWS (in a package deal) for Patton (something similar to the Shaw deal). We could offer Patton some serious coin (and game time) to convince him to come as well (assuming retirements of Judd, Scotland, Waite and losing Gibbs and Walker).
  
• Let Gibbs walk as a FA. Assuming we finish @ 12th this year, we should jag picks 6 and 7. Take either two tall marking forwards (if we cant prise Patton from GWS), or a Tall and a Mid if we can grab Patton.
  
• Letting Gibbs walk plus trading out 1AW (plus the imminent retirement of Waite, Scotland and Judd) will also free up cash to make a major FA/ GWS/ GCS raid at the end of 2015. Perfect time to hit them assuming we restock our list THIS year with kids (3/4 picks inside of the top 20). The expansion sides salary caps will tighten as the years roll on, and those guns will start attracting some serious offers from other clubs. Will be able to prise a few of those kids out.
  
• Keep Kruezer. Warnock is shit. Rest MK all damn year though to make sure his body is right for 2015

Flame away.

I'm ok with all of the above.

 

[LordLucifer]

Flame away.

There's nothing to flame about there actually, just a difference of opinion on who should stay & go.

We have a heap of players I don't see as being part of the bigger picture and for varying reasons. If we plonked these guys on the trade table right now, I'd like to see if anyone was to nibble - Sam Rowe, Levi Casboult, Kane Lucas, Jarryd Cachia, Brock McLean, Andrew McInnes, Simon White, Mathew Watson, Josh Bootsma, Mitch Robinson, Tom Bell, Jarrod Waite, Jeff Garlett, David Ellard and subject to the medical reports, Mathew Kreuzer.

If no-one wants to trade for them, then clearly we shouldn't be hanging on to them either.

Carrazzo & Scotland should just retire even though we are not able to replace Scotland's pinpoint disposal right now.

Walker is a one-club man now, we need to keep him and plonk him across half-forward like Ratten did and he had that stellar season a couple ago. IMO, he is part of the next generation we can build, he will be a senior figure in it.

Gibbs has to go, the benefit to the club in return via the compo pick is just too good to knock back, we need KPP's and here they are served up on a platter, we'd be crazy not to take it.

Kreuzer stays but only if the medicos are convinced he is going to be alright. He is now out with a navicular injury and there has only been one player who has returned from it successfully in the past (one J. Hird if you don't mind - reckon he didn't get some extra assistance somewhere ?). I agree with Dramo that we brought him back too quickly and if he is able to return then yes, he should spend a serious amount of time regaining confidence, conditioning & fitness in the NB's.

Warnock ?? ***** me dead, we have been burnt beyond all recognition with this bloke but we only have ourselves to blame. Cannot do anything around the ground and was beaten at the centre bounce by two of Essendon's pinch-hitters, has to be removed at all costs.

GWS have two young guys on their list who are both over 200cm yet they are down the pecking order with Mumford, Giles & Phillips ahead of them. Surely one of them would give us as much as Warnock does right now but they would have the upside factor given their younger age. I'd be trying to trade in one of them on the cheap and if they can be left to develop further in the seconds then fantastic, if not, throw them in the seniors and keep our fingers crossed.

 

[Cringle]

Sometimes players have more value to the club then to other clubs. Boots or Watto for instance wouldn't create much of a trade target should they put on the table, however they have value in the squad (IMO).

 

[Malifice]

We have a heap of players I don't see as being part of the bigger picture and for varying reasons. If we plonked these guys on the trade table right now, I'd like to see if anyone was to nibble - Sam Rowe, Levi Casboult, Kane Lucas, Jarryd Cachia, Brock McLean, Andrew McInnes, Simon White, Mathew Watson, Josh Bootsma, Mitch Robinson, Tom Bell, Jarrod Waite, Jeff Garlett, David Ellard and subject to the medical reports, Mathew Kreuzer.

Thing is with all the above, we wont get a good enough price for any of these blokes - and its not like they're doing anything at the moment to increase their value.

Sam Rowe plays a part at the moment, as does Ellard and Robinson. I'd love to upgrade them with better players, but for the draft picks we would get for them in any trade, that isnt going to happen. Casboult, Lucas, Watson, Bootsma, Bell, Cachia, McInnes have upside, I dont think we've seen the best of these blokes yet, particularly not with better support around them. Casboult would excell in a lead up forward role with a second key forward working in tandem with him. He's about the only bloke in our side I trust to take a contested grab. Lucas needs another year, its too early to write him off just yet, same with Watson.

OTOH we have seen the best of McLean, White, Waite and Garlett and none of them (aside from Garlett) holds any trade value. Waite is pretty much past it (sadly) and will almost certainly retire this year. White is useful to cover injuries, McLean has his limitiations (and uses).

Kreuzer is a keeper. We agree on Warnock being next to useless, but we have no other rucks going around at the moment. MK needs an injury free few years, and the role of number 1 ruck to show what he can do, and we'll be glad we kept him. He's a quality ruckman, and his work around the ground and at stoppages cant be underestimated. Sadly the bloke hasnt been able to run and has been cruelled with injuries.

Carrazzo & Scotland should just retire even though we are not able to replace Scotland's pinpoint disposal right now.

Watch Docherty in the 2nds if you want to see pinpoint disposal. Elite.

Scotlands heir apparent.

Walker is a one-club man now, we need to keep him and plonk him across half-forward like Ratten did and he had that stellar season a couple ago. IMO, he is part of the next generation we can build, he will be a senior figure in it.

I agree he needs to be across the HFF. Been saying that since day 1 and havent seen anything to change my opinion. The issue with 1AW is that he's 27 years old and by the time we are competing for a flag (at least 3 years) he is going to be 30+ and his main attributes (speed, leap and endurance) will be on the wane. He's never been big on contested footy, and I cant see him reinventing himself at a later point in his career. He's in his prime at the moment (when the rest of the side isnt), and (for mine) thats when you trade. We could easily get a top 20 pick for him, or use him in a trade (plus upgrade) for one of GWS/ GC's young guns (Patton?) in a similar trade to the Heath Shaw/ Taylor Adams exchange.

Gibbs has to go, the benefit to the club in return via the compo pick is just too good to knock back, we need KPP's and here they are served up on a platter, we'd be crazy not to take it.

Agree 100%. Add to that the money we would save to poach some experienced FA or lure more GWS/ GC kids at the end of the 2015 season.

Losing Gibbs, trading Walker and retirements over the next two years of Waite, Judd, Scotland and probable Carrots means we will have a ton of spare cash floating around to nab 1 or 2 guns via FA and/or shake lose a kid from the expansion sides.

Remember - lets not think 1 year ahead. We need to be careful and plan this shit over the next two or three years. Its a constant process and we need to forecast appropriately. We certainly cant fix the list in one year.

Each year from now GWS and GCS have thier salary cap tightened and have to cut players from the list. Add to that their guns will start attracting serious offers from rival clubs and they are going to leak good players back home.

We need to get in on that shit, and have the money to burn to get them here.

Kreuzer stays but only if the medicos are convinced he is going to be alright. He is now out with a navicular injury and there has only been one player who has returned from it successfully in the past (one J. Hird if you don't mind - reckon he didn't get some extra assistance somewhere ?). I agree with Dramo that we brought him back too quickly and if he is able to return then yes, he should spend a serious amount of time regaining confidence, conditioning & fitness in the NB's.

We need MK. Rest him for the whole damn year. The risk/reward if he recovers is worth it. Trading him is too risky seeing as we traded Hammer last year.

Warnock ?? ***** me dead, we have been burnt beyond all recognition with this bloke but we only have ourselves to blame. Cannot do anything around the ground and was beaten at the centre bounce by two of Essendon's pinch-hitters, has to be removed at all costs.

Warnock wins hit outs. But (just like Sandi) this is easy to combat. You let him, and rove to HIS danger spots in the ruck contests. He also offers sweet FA around the ground. I've been disgusted to watch him stand there after hit outs like a statue waiting for the ball to come out to him.

You wouldnt see MK doing that.

GWS have two young guys on their list who are both over 200cm yet they are down the pecking order with Mumford, Giles & Phillips ahead of them. Surely one of them would give us as much as Warnock does right now but they would have the upside factor given their younger age. I'd be trying to trade in one of them on the cheap and if they can be left to develop further in the seconds then fantastic, if not, throw them in the seniors and keep our fingers crossed.

Id rather go after one of their three Key forwards, with Patton being the most likely. They dont need three, he's come off serious knee injuries and looks an utter monster at 19. Not many 19 year old blokes can destroy experienced key backs like that bloke was. Considering the shit team (currently) he found himself playing in, I'd happily give GWS whatever they wanted for him (assuming he is medically good to go).

 

[Malifice]

Sometimes players have more value to the club then to other clubs. Boots or Watto for instance wouldn't create much of a trade target should they put on the table, however they have value in the squad (IMO).

I see Watson, Jamison and Henderson being the three key backs going forwards for us. Add Docherty and Bucks for some dash out of defence, and Touhy for some grunt.

We need another key defender though to keep those three honest and to cover for injuries.

 

[Cringle]

I see Watson, Jamison and Henderson being the three key backs going forwards for us. Add Docherty and Bucks for some dash out of defence, and Touhy for some grunt.

We need another key defender though to keep those three honest and to cover for injuries.

Giles?

 

[Malifice]

Giles?

Havent seen enough to comment. Looks a likely type though.

 

[Dramoth]

Would play Jamison and Rowe as KPD for this year with Watson playing 3rd tall. Then slowing transition this over the next year or two (with the delisting of Rowe) playing Watson in KPD and Giles as the third tall until both Watson and Giles are ready to play both KPD. Jamison then becomes third tall.

Dont have the time for that to happen so easily.

I would be playing Jamison as the third tall overseeing both Watson and Giles.

Nothing like throwing them both in the deep end.

 

[Dramoth]

If there has been theft, Effendi, we shall slaughter man, woman and child until the cur is found and beaten to death in a less than secluded place.

I'll be back in the middle of the year if you want to try and find me

I always wanted to have a tiger bbq

 

[rp84]

There is some madness going on...

Build the club around Kreuzer? The poor lad has barely played a game in two years and looks unlikely to ever be a long term decent player. He has only ever dominated several games, looked extremely positive until the knee and now is absolutely at the cross roads. He looks slow, has lost athleticism and is undersized at his main position.

Someone saying that casboult is in our spine of the future?! How the mighty have fallen. He can catch it like noone else, is improving
Each season but will lklikely never be a top 10 or even top 20 forward.

We need to get serious about where we are headed and that means taking the navy blue glasses off. We criminally overrated our list. This had lead to our current position. Time to get some better talent and list developers involved with the club.

I'm guilty of it too. I always raved about warnock. How wrong I was. Probably isnt in the top 20 of afl rucks. Move on asap.