The risk of the Hawthorn/North Melbourne path...

[Freomaniac]

I like what hawks are doing but I wish JOM "picked" Eagles.

I understand what north are doing, IMO they have lacked heart or true leadership amongst their players... now they are trying to put in a new feel in the club.

I've said for a while boomer, yes he gets the stats etc but I believed he was holding back the team for a while.

I think the younger players were either scared of leading the club with him around or he was a s**t leader.

I'm glad that swallow is turning over the captaincy he didn't strike me as much of a leader but I don't know the bloke.

I think it's smart and bold what North is doing and it's the right direction however their issue may not be fixed over the preseason but it's a step in the right direction.

crap post! Boomer Holding the team back? Dont make me laugh.

Theres a word I like to use. Its called moderation....

Any team can play few 30 year olds every week and at the same time give debuts to young kids.

How? Just choose your best 22 and play one teenager off the bench. You can debut 5 guys in 1 year and give them 4 games each. Or... debut 4 guys and give them 5 games each then ease them all in the 22 the next season.

Thats How the swans, Hawks and Cats have done it.

 

[HairyO]

crap post! Boomer Holding the team back? Dont make me laugh.

Theres a word I like to use. Its called moderation....

Any team can play few 30 year olds every week and at the same time give debuts to young kids.

How? Just choose your best 22 and play one teenager off the bench. You can debut 5 guys in 1 year and give them 4 games each. Or... debut 4 guys and give them 5 games each then ease them all in the 22 the next season.

Thats How the swans, Hawks and Cats have done it.

We debuted 7 and the Swans 8. Not sure on Geelong but they had a lot of new faces.

And we have more in 2017, with plenty of games for our 2nd and 3rd year kids.

 

[hutchy31]

I think the challenge in assessing list builds is that conventional wisdom around the so-called "premiership window" is being changed by the modern game. With improved preparation and exposure to high quality coaching, training etc at youth level players are coming in AFL-ready at 18. On the flip side, the increasing professionalism at clubs means that many players are playing well into their 30s, and still maintaining a high level while doing it.

I can't remember the actual stats, but the Hawks last couple of flags were among the oldest premiership-winning sides in history. They should have been outside of the premiership window and vulnerable to an established list but with more 20-somethings than 30-somethings.

Conversely, a list that had:
- a few guys in their 30s who'd played 200+ games, who would typically be nearing the end
- only a smattering of players in their "prime" - mid-20s with 100-150 games under their belt
- a bunch of kids with 50 games or less and little to no finals experience

would be considered to be pretty far from a flag. Except they just won it.

Maybe you need a combination of experience and youth now, and not so many guys who are in the 100-150 games group. Maybe it depends more on game style and coach. I'd not be overly critical of "topping up" provided the players are genuine quality - therein lies the difference between the builds at Hawks and North imo (with the notable exception of Vickery, not sure what the hawks are doing there).

 

[Tas]

serious question. How long you been a roos fan?

The reason i asked is because you said north sack coaches if they get 7 wins or less. Last time north got 7 wins was in 2006. Last time north got 5 wins was 1984,

Been watching the games since the mid 70s. Yes, I am old. It is a testament to the club that over my life time it can't even fill on one hand the number of times it has failed to win 7 games or more. There is just a much higher bar of expectation, both internally and externally. The media do not make excuses for my club like they do other perennial underachievers.

 

[Handsome.B.Wonderful]

Been watching the games since the mid 70s. Yes, I am old. It is a testament to the club that over my life time it can't even fill on one hand the number of times it has failed to win 7 games or more. There is just a much higher bar of expectation, both internally and externally. The media do not make excuses for my club like they do other perennial underachievers.

Likewise, I am in my 30's and North has not won less than 7 games in a season since I've been born.

 

[Bokonon]

Been watching the games since the mid 70s. Yes, I am old. It is a testament to the club that over my life time it can't even fill on one hand the number of times it has failed to win 7 games or more. There is just a much higher bar of expectation, both internally and externally. The media do not make excuses for my club like they do other perennial underachievers.

I'm a similar age and never a North fan, but yeah your right. The club has always had more than it's share of success.

 

[captain cotch 9]

Hawthorn is in a hell of a lot better situation that Melbourne was in those days.
Credit to Melbourne they seem to have turned it around but I'd be backing the Hawks to be just fine.
They may slip down for a year or two but they will be back pretty quickly.

 

[Johnny Karate]

Hawthorn have consistently made huge calls throughout Clarkson's tenure which has netted them 4 flags. As for North 3 of the four were cooked whereas Harvey was a bit stiff.

Time will tell if either club mismanaged the situation as horrifically as we did. I strongly doubt it.

 

[Rimmer]

Sheedy had to often reset when coaching Essendon over 27 years and started multiple dynasties which were successful. The time comes for all.

I would have liked Harvey to play another year because even Scott said to Harvey he would be in their best players next year and the year after, meaning he acknowledged Harvey was still good enough despite age. The others let go were fine. North has tried to top up with older players and it has not worked.

Hawthorn ... smarter heads than mine are being scratched over Mitchell. I see Hawthorn were trying to move on either Mitchell OR Lewis to make space for Tom Mitchell and O'Meara ... primarily O'Meara because they could fit Tom Mitchell in. I believe it has backfired on them because they did not want to lose them both and its possible they will miss out on O'Meara too. GC said it all, it was a bad year to try twist their arm on this because they have 3 top 10 picks already. Hawthorn is the weaker for this imo.

 

[B&GBlood]

Mitchell and Lewis were always year to year propositions/contracts. Both players have gone on to contracts for more years and more money than at the Hawks. Some egos might have been bruised, but there is comfort in a fat wallet and longer tenure.

Hawks have freed up cash for free agents. While you are wining flags you don't get much chance to get early selections. The Hawks have identified there are better odds of success when you know what you are buying in.
Finally we have a brace of young midds that are wasted at VFL level, their time is now.

What exactly did we do wrong? Of course we did it differently, that is why we have 13 flags since 1961. Surely you can all see by now it isn't an accident.

 

[ManOfClay]

Hawthorn probably have the culture to manage.

North are in a hole.

 

[ozzyoslo]

I think Hawthorn have gone about this a lot smarter in a public / employee relations sense than North or Melbourne.

Whilst I do think Scott tried to do the right thing by the players :- 3 of them were or had approached their used by date. If given another chance to approach the subject regarding Boomer I think Scott now will be better prepared for future dealings.
However to say the Clarkson did it the right way......is a little naive. He nudged Mitchell (knowing it was his last year) but he shafted Lewis any which way you want to look at it.......''yep you're not getting a renewal or extension next year cobber, youre better off to grab an extension elsewhere if you like''.

Only one person can answer this one and thats Lewis..........looking forward in hearing after the launch of his book release when his time is done.

 

[ozzyoslo]

Hawthorn probably have the culture to manage.

North are in a hole.

Jealousy is a curse, happy for you and your club for the win this year.

 

[Draft Pick]

Jealousy is a curse, happy for you and your club for the win this year.

Pot kettle black.

 

[ManOfClay]

Jealousy is a curse, happy for you and your club for the win this year.

I'm sorry. North showed this season they will be a force for years to come. To win nine games in a row and finish eighth was the zenith

 

[yeee_haaaa!!!!!]

We debuted 7 and the Swans 8. Not sure on Geelong but they had a lot of new faces.

And we have more in 2017, with plenty of games for our 2nd and 3rd year kids.

There's no doubt the Hawks gave debuts to a number of youngsters in 2016. The problem for the Hawks is that most of them are just not that good

 

[HairyO]

There's no doubt the Hawks gave debuts to a number of youngsters in 2016. The problem for the Hawks is that most of them are just not that good

Fitzpatrick did enough to beat your mob. Burton will be an absolute star. Sicily was as good a new mid sized forward as weve seen in years. Pittonet was okay given he is 19 and a ruckman and generally take far longer to hit their stride.

The glimpses we saw of Lovell were good and the others may well develop.

And now we add JOM and Mitchell.

 

[The King!]

Hawthorn have added a gun 23 year old who will only get better
A complete jet who should be fit to go and gave up two quality players yep but who were ageing and they were often criticised for having (eg too old)

Freed up cap space for next years free agency which looks good

Coming off sustained unmatched success

How are they in a discussion with north ?

 

[walhawk]

There's no doubt the Hawks gave debuts to a number of youngsters in 2016. The problem for the Hawks is that most of them are just not that good

Two out, three in. How does that open any spots?

 

[ozzyoslo]

I'm sorry. North showed this season they will be a force for years to come. To win nine games in a row and finish eighth was the zenith

Yes and after the 1st nine games of the season you planning to bet your house on you guys winning the flag this year yes.........whats your point? Now that you've seen your side win one now you'll understand that a lot of luck is involved for it to go your way to win one.

But then again after all your injuries you experienced that you're certainties to win again next year huh??

 

[ManOfClay]

Yes and after the 1st nine games of the season you planning to bet your house on you guys winning the flag this year yes.........whats your point? Now that you've seen your side win one now you'll understand that a lot of luck is involved for it to go your way to win one.

But then again after all your injuries you experienced that you're certainties to win again next year huh??

Not certainties. But we have to be in with a shot.

How do you think north are placed: captain has stood down, experienced players left, chairman gone and replaced. A bit like the Bulldogs 2 years ago but without the best coach in the league

 

[Caj]

Hawthorn have added a gun 23 year old who will only get better
A complete jet who should be fit to go and gave up two quality players yep but who were ageing and they were often criticised for having (eg too old)

Freed up cap space for next years free agency which looks good

Coming off sustained unmatched success

How are they in a discussion with north ?

Not sure about that if you look at the sums:

Out Mitchell $600k, Lewis $500k = $1.1m (less if you believe the spiel that the champs all play for free for the love of the club)
In O'Meara $700k, Mitchell $500k, Vickery $500k = $1.7m

Estimates only, but they've added a substantial whack to the salary cap, not reduced it

 

[kirbatron]

There's no doubt the Hawks gave debuts to a number of youngsters in 2016. The problem for the Hawks is that most of them are just not that good

Hence we traded in 2 young guns in JOM & TOM & not gone down the speculative draft pick route this year - we will get back in the draft in the next year or 2 in a big way I feel.

 

[The King!]

Not sure about that if you look at the sums:

Out Mitchell $600k, Lewis $500k = $1.1m (less if you believe the spiel that the champs all play for free for the love of the club)
In O'Meara $700k, Mitchell $500k, Vickery $500k = $1.7m

Estimates only, but they've added a substantial whack to the salary cap, not reduced it

Dunno, I think the vets made space this year to fit the guys in now but wouldnt surprise me if the Hawks have handy cap space next year especially with the cap rising.

Just smart operators

 

[Mitchell Madness]

There's no doubt the Hawks gave debuts to a number of youngsters in 2016. The problem for the Hawks is that most of them are just not that good

Off the top of my head, brand and burton have more than proved themselves with little game time

Then there's Sicily who had only 3 games before this year

Stewart could be anything

Heatherly held his own in his only game

That's 5 players there who should make an impact next year, not too bad for players who just aren't that good