Conspiracy Theory The Russia-Ukraine War

[BlueE]

As for castration, well the only people doing that are Russian fascists.

Wrong. At least the Bellingcat report looked at both sides in some detail and tracked down the soldier in the cowboy hat.

He's very recognisable with the hat on. Strange he then wears it when being filmed participating in horrific war crimes and then this is posted on a Russian channel? The face of the alleged perpetrator cannot be clearly seen in the videos of the act itself.


This he admits is him. But this is supposed to be the same hat? He denies that is him.

Hardly the absolute proof you use as fuel to justify your torrents of abuse. All evidence should be presented to a court for prosecution of war crimes.

Unlike RT claims which are almost always bullshit here is absolute proof of Russians doing it



You're an embarrassment. You continue to parrot Russian propaganda that has long been debunked as continued justification for Russia's invasion of Ukraine (which has been declared illegal by all international organisations).


By doing that you accept the raping / killing / torturing of Ukranian civilians by Russian soldiers.

Wrong.

 

[BlueE]

This thread was started with Tulsi Gabbards comments that "This war and suffering could have easily been avoided if Biden Admin/NATO had simply acknowledged Russia’s legitimate security concerns regarding Ukraine’s becoming a member of NATO, which would mean US/NATO forces right on Russia’s border."

The inability to acknowledge there have been many publically warning about the causes and consequences of teh Ukraine Crisis for over 7 years

"The West is leading Ukraine down the primrose path and the end result is that Ukraine is going to get wrecked." - John J. Mearsheimer



Mearsheimer correctly analysed the problem and predicted possible consequences years ago. Each statement supported by facts and fully accurate in forecasting the future, but some people don't want to hear the truth because they don't want their illusions destroyed.

 

[BlueE]

Both talking about the Roger Walters V CNN host debate.

Roger Waters brands Biden ‘war criminal’ who is ‘just getting started’

Pink Floyd legend Roger Waters is calling President Biden a “war criminal” during his latest US stadium tour — blaming him for “fueling the fire” with the Ukraine war.

nypost.com

 

[bourbons]

Both talking about the Roger Walters V CNN host debate.

Roger Waters brands Biden ‘war criminal’ who is ‘just getting started’

Pink Floyd legend Roger Waters is calling President Biden a “war criminal” during his latest US stadium tour — blaming him for “fueling the fire” with the Ukraine war.

nypost.com

My god

The abject hilarity and irony of Waters imploring someone to read and inform themsleves, a moment after lecturing that no NATO expansion was promised in negotiations with Gorbachev

Did NATO Promise Not to Enlarge? Gorbachev Says "No" | Brookings

Russian President Vladimir Putin has made it well known his antipathy towards NATO, claiming the Alliance took advantage of Russian weakness after the collapse of the Soviet Union in violation of promises allegedly made to Moscow by Western leaders. Steven Pifer argues that no such promises were...

www.brookings.edu

Ukraine: the history behind Russia’s claim that Nato promised not to expand to the east

Russia insists that there was an agreement not to expand Nato eastwards after the end of the USSR. History begs to differ.

theconversation.com

Did The West Promise Moscow That NATO Would Not Expand? Well, It's Complicated.

Mikhail Gorbachev himself said the question of NATO's expansion didn't come up in discussions when he was Soviet leader. That hasn't stopped the assertion that NATO and the United States misled Moscow from becoming a central grievance for Russian President Vladimir Putin and the Kremlin.

www.rferl.org

‘There was no promise not to enlarge NATO’ - Harvard Law School

Robert Zoellick, the U.S. diplomat who helped negotiate the end of the Cold War, says Vladimir Putin’s claims about Ukraine are part of a disinformation campaign.

today.law.harvard.edu

Did NATO ‘betray’ Russia by expanding to the East?

The Kremlin claims the West broke a promise it made in the 1990s not to expand NATO, and is now using this claim to justify threats to invade Ukraine.

www.france24.com

Fact-checking claims that NATO broke agreement on expansion

Two days before Russia invaded Ukraine with an assault that intelligence officials had warned was coming, conservative c

www.politifact.com

 

[mcnulty]

“bullshit ... anybody with an IQ above room temperature knows [an invasion] is nonsense”

Roger Waters, a WEEK before the invasion. I know a lot of those 60/70s rockers abused the old grey matter back in the day, but this is some next level delusion. Or maybe he was just playing to the audience, speaking as he was to RT.

Although perhaps he does need the company, don’t think the rest of his band mates talk to him much these days.

Nutter. Fancy invoking him

 

[Zidane98]

Incredible that there are actually posters on here that subscribe to the theory that Russia had no choice but to attack Ukraine and it's all the fault of the evil west.

 

[Zidane98]

Look I found clear proof of Biolab engineered anti Russian birds in Ukraine!




Quick, invade/kill/rape/torture Ukranians!

 

[Mofra]

“bullshit ... anybody with an IQ above room temperature knows [an invasion] is nonsense”

Roger Waters, a WEEK before the invasion. I know a lot of those 60/70s rockers abused the old grey matter back in the day, but this is some next level delusion. Or maybe he was just playing to the audience, speaking as he was to RT.

Although perhaps he does need the company, don’t think the rest of his band mates talk to him much these days.

Nutter. Fancy invoking him

Nah I'm now starting to have doubts. Better consult Cindi Lauper and Billy Idol to see what they have to say

 

[Zidane98]

Looks like Neo Nazis have been attracted to Putin / Russia for quite some time

'A model for civilization': Putin's Russia has emerged as 'a beacon for nationalists' and the American alt-right

Russian President Vladimir Putin has emerged as a hero of several prominent alt-right figures, who have gained prominence with the rise of Donald Trump.

www.businessinsider.com

Putin really is the closest thing to a modern day Hitler.

 

[ParapMarkets]

Carrot in this case being about 1/4 of a sovereign country. Seems like that country should probably have some say in it?


Endless war? No. This particular war seems fairly necessary though. Ukraine seems to think it is anyway.

We only ever get one side of the story . There is a clear track record of Western Government’s lying to promote war to the masses and a clear track record of the media being nothing other than a mouthpiece for them in war promotion. Our media is absolutely rotten to the core.

 

[ParapMarkets]

Who invaded who?

The Allies have invaded a whole range of countries. What are the reasons for the invasion? Their reasoning for the invasion included their assertion that Russian nationals were being slaughtered by the thousands in the two Eastern regions. Now, for all I know that assertion is complete BS, but war could have easily been avoided. It looks like the media has sold you on war

 

[mcnulty]

The Allies have invaded a whole range of countries. What are the reasons for the invasion? Their reasoning for the invasion included their assertion that Russian nationals were being slaughtered by the thousands in the two Eastern regions. Now, for all I know that assertion is complete BS, but war could have easily been avoided. It looks like the media has sold you on war

Sold on war? What on earth are you on about??? Putin unilaterally invaded a sovereign country. It’s a war entirely of his choosing.

 

[ParapMarkets]

Sold on war? What on earth are you on about??? Putin unilaterally invaded a sovereign country. It’s a war entirely of his choosing.

If I revenge pr0n your sister and you punch me in the face am I completely exonerated because you’re the one that unilaterally commenced violence?

 

[mcnulty]

If I revenge pr0n your sister and you punch me in the face am I completely exonerated because you’re the one that unilaterally commenced violence?

Ok that’s the dumbest, most inapt analogy I’ve ever heard.

 

[ParapMarkets]

Ok that’s the dumbest, most inapt analogy I’ve ever heard.

No it’s not. There are always two sides to a story. I don’t trust Putin, I don’t like him either but the other side has goaded him into war.

 

[mcnulty]

the other side has goaded him into war.

Simply bullshit.

 

[BlueE]

My god

The abject hilarity and irony of Waters imploring someone to read and inform themsleves, a moment after lecturing that no NATO expansion was promised in negotiations with Gorbachev

Did NATO Promise Not to Enlarge? Gorbachev Says "No" | Brookings

Russian President Vladimir Putin has made it well known his antipathy towards NATO, claiming the Alliance took advantage of Russian weakness after the collapse of the Soviet Union in violation of promises allegedly made to Moscow by Western leaders. Steven Pifer argues that no such promises were...

www.brookings.edu

Ukraine: the history behind Russia’s claim that Nato promised not to expand to the east

Russia insists that there was an agreement not to expand Nato eastwards after the end of the USSR. History begs to differ.

theconversation.com

Did The West Promise Moscow That NATO Would Not Expand? Well, It's Complicated.

Mikhail Gorbachev himself said the question of NATO's expansion didn't come up in discussions when he was Soviet leader. That hasn't stopped the assertion that NATO and the United States misled Moscow from becoming a central grievance for Russian President Vladimir Putin and the Kremlin.

www.rferl.org

‘There was no promise not to enlarge NATO’ - Harvard Law School

Robert Zoellick, the U.S. diplomat who helped negotiate the end of the Cold War, says Vladimir Putin’s claims about Ukraine are part of a disinformation campaign.

today.law.harvard.edu

Did NATO ‘betray’ Russia by expanding to the East?

The Kremlin claims the West broke a promise it made in the 1990s not to expand NATO, and is now using this claim to justify threats to invade Ukraine.

www.france24.com

Fact-checking claims that NATO broke agreement on expansion

Two days before Russia invaded Ukraine with an assault that intelligence officials had warned was coming, conservative c

www.politifact.com

There it is! An actual debate on differing points of view was actually allowed on CNN with the real irony being that the interviewer was expecting to make the Walter's beliefs conspicuous by clever questioning and instead exposed the Russian grievance described in some detail in the polifact link.

Waters told Smerconish he should try to figure out what the US would do if the “Chinese were putting nuclear-armed missiles into Mexico or Canada.”

The CNN presenter said: “The Chinese are too busy encircling Taiwan as we speak.”

Pink Floyd co-founder Roger Waters: "Taiwan is part of China and that's been absolutely accepted by the whole of the int'l community since 1948, and if you don't know that, you're not reading enough. Go and read about it."

Is that true or not?

Smerconish was showing the musician a montage on the screen that included a picture of Joe Biden when the musician stated (via Spin): “Well, he’s fuelling the fire in the Ukraine for a start – that is a huge crime. Why won’t the United States of America encourage Zelenskyy to negotiate, obviating the need for this horrific, horrendous war that’s killing we don’t know how many Russians?”

The CNN presenter questioned Waters’ comments, accusing him of getting his views “reversed” by “blaming the party that got invaded.”

“Well, any war, when did it start?” Waters asked. “What you need to do is look at the history, and you can say, ‘Well it started on this day.’ You could say it [Ukraine-Russia conflict] started in 2008 – this war is basically about the action and reaction of NATO pushing right up to the Russian border, which they promised they wouldn’t do when Gorbachev negotiated the withdrawal of the USSR from the whole of eastern Europe.”

Polifact with 21 references looks at the issues when responding to a tweet of Candice Owens (claiming an agreement and not a promise)

The subject of the grievance is whether the U.S. and its Western allies promised the Soviet Union during negotiations over the reunification of Germany that they would not allow NATO to expand its membership east of the Cold War border.

The question has fueled decades of debate and disagreement over what was said around those negotiations, what was meant by it all, and whether Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev and other leaders received certain assurances regarding NATO’s expansion beyond East Germany.

The source of controversy, however, is centered around statements made during the negotiations by Western leaders — particularly James Baker, the U.S. secretary of state, and German Foreign Minister Hans Dietrich Genscher.

One key statement came during a Feb. 9, 1990, meeting between Baker and Gorbachev.

After explaining why the U.S. wanted the reunited Germany to stay within the framework of NATO, Baker told Gorbachev that "if we maintain a presence in a Germany that is a part of NATO, there would be no extension of NATO's jurisdiction for forces of NATO 1 inch to the east."

Those comments, along with similar remarks from Baker’s European allies, like Genscher and Kohl, were part of what researchers at George Washington University’s National Security Archive called a "cascade of assurances" offered to the Soviets.

"There was a discussion about whether the unified Germany would be a member of NATO, and that was the only discussion we ever had," Baker told CNN during a 2009 interview. "There was never any discussion of anything but (East Germany)."

Other figures have said that assurances were made, including Jack Matlock, the last U.S. ambassador to the Soviet Union, and Robert Gates, the deputy national security adviser at the time. Gates said the Soviets "were led to believe" NATO would not expand eastward.

Gorbachev has sent mixed messages. On one occasion, he insisted that he was promised NATO would not "move 1 centimeter further east." In another interview in 2014, he said the question never came up, though he added that NATO’s eventual expansion was "a violation of the spirit of the statements and assurances made to us in 1990." He said:

"The topic of ‘NATO expansion’ was not discussed at all, and it wasn’t brought up in those years. I say this with full responsibility. Not a single Eastern European country raised the issue, not even after the Warsaw Pact ceased to exist in 1991. Western leaders didn’t bring it up, either."

Scholars have landed on both sides of the debate.

Shifrinson, an associate professor of international relations at Boston University, wrote that while no formal agreement restricted NATO’s expansion, Baker and other diplomats had offered the Soviets verbal assurances that NATO would not enlarge to the east.

In an interview with PolitiFact, Shifrinson said that he still holds the same view, and that a new document he recently discovered in the British National Archives supports that case.

Fact-checking claims that NATO broke agreement on expansion

Two days before Russia invaded Ukraine with an assault that intelligence officials had warned was coming, conservative c

www.politifact.com

 

[BlueE]

Nah I'm now starting to have doubts. Better consult Cindi Lauper and Billy Idol to see what they have to say

Missed the point. If he wasn't seen as just a musician, even if expressing his views at Pink Floyd concerts, then he wouldn't have been invited onto mainstream news.

The resulting debate and resulting world wide attention has not been allowed on mainstream news outlets, because of the suppression of anyone with conflicting views to the main stream narrative.

Have you not questioned why respected experts like Mearsheimer and others highlighting media is manufacturing consent are not featured on mainstream news?

 

[Zidane98]

Meanwhile on Russian state TV




This is pretty much straight out of the Goebels / Nazi playbook. It is disturbing and reflects Putins fascist motivations for his war on a peaceful democratic Ukraine.

 

[bourbons]

We only ever get one side of the story . There is a clear track record of Western Government’s lying to promote war to the masses and a clear track record of the media being nothing other than a mouthpiece for them in war promotion. Our media is absolutely rotten to the core.

But what in that 'other side' that we're not getting means Ukraine shouldn't be fighting to repel their invaders?

 

[bourbons]

If I revenge pr0n your sister and you punch me in the face am I completely exonerated because you’re the one that unilaterally commenced violence?

Yes, because Ukraine wanting to join an international framework they see as beneficial to their country is like them revenge porning Russia

Can we get any actual acknowledgement of Ukrainian autonomy, at any stage in this discussion?

 

[bourbons]

No it’s not. There are always two sides to a story. I don’t trust Putin, I don’t like him either but the other side has goaded him into war.

lol

It always comes back to classic wife beater s**t doesn't it. "Look what you made me do".

 

[bourbons]

There it is! An actual debate on differing points of view was actually allowed on CNN with the real irony being that the interviewer was expecting to make the Walter's beliefs conspicuous by clever questioning and instead exposed the Russian grievance described in some detail in the polifact link.

Waters told Smerconish he should try to figure out what the US would do if the “Chinese were putting nuclear-armed missiles into Mexico or Canada.”

The CNN presenter said: “The Chinese are too busy encircling Taiwan as we speak.”

Pink Floyd co-founder Roger Waters: "Taiwan is part of China and that's been absolutely accepted by the whole of the int'l community since 1948, and if you don't know that, you're not reading enough. Go and read about it."

Is that true or not?

Smerconish was showing the musician a montage on the screen that included a picture of Joe Biden when the musician stated (via Spin): “Well, he’s fuelling the fire in the Ukraine for a start – that is a huge crime. Why won’t the United States of America encourage Zelenskyy to negotiate, obviating the need for this horrific, horrendous war that’s killing we don’t know how many Russians?”

The CNN presenter questioned Waters’ comments, accusing him of getting his views “reversed” by “blaming the party that got invaded.”

“Well, any war, when did it start?” Waters asked. “What you need to do is look at the history, and you can say, ‘Well it started on this day.’ You could say it [Ukraine-Russia conflict] started in 2008 – this war is basically about the action and reaction of NATO pushing right up to the Russian border, which they promised they wouldn’t do when Gorbachev negotiated the withdrawal of the USSR from the whole of eastern Europe.”

Polifact with 21 references looks at the issues when responding to a tweet of Candice Owens (claiming an agreement and not a promise)

The subject of the grievance is whether the U.S. and its Western allies promised the Soviet Union during negotiations over the reunification of Germany that they would not allow NATO to expand its membership east of the Cold War border.

The question has fueled decades of debate and disagreement over what was said around those negotiations, what was meant by it all, and whether Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev and other leaders received certain assurances regarding NATO’s expansion beyond East Germany.

The source of controversy, however, is centered around statements made during the negotiations by Western leaders — particularly James Baker, the U.S. secretary of state, and German Foreign Minister Hans Dietrich Genscher.

One key statement came during a Feb. 9, 1990, meeting between Baker and Gorbachev.

After explaining why the U.S. wanted the reunited Germany to stay within the framework of NATO, Baker told Gorbachev that "if we maintain a presence in a Germany that is a part of NATO, there would be no extension of NATO's jurisdiction for forces of NATO 1 inch to the east."

Those comments, along with similar remarks from Baker’s European allies, like Genscher and Kohl, were part of what researchers at George Washington University’s National Security Archive called a "cascade of assurances" offered to the Soviets.

"There was a discussion about whether the unified Germany would be a member of NATO, and that was the only discussion we ever had," Baker told CNN during a 2009 interview. "There was never any discussion of anything but (East Germany)."

Other figures have said that assurances were made, including Jack Matlock, the last U.S. ambassador to the Soviet Union, and Robert Gates, the deputy national security adviser at the time. Gates said the Soviets "were led to believe" NATO would not expand eastward.

Gorbachev has sent mixed messages. On one occasion, he insisted that he was promised NATO would not "move 1 centimeter further east." In another interview in 2014, he said the question never came up, though he added that NATO’s eventual expansion was "a violation of the spirit of the statements and assurances made to us in 1990." He said:

"The topic of ‘NATO expansion’ was not discussed at all, and it wasn’t brought up in those years. I say this with full responsibility. Not a single Eastern European country raised the issue, not even after the Warsaw Pact ceased to exist in 1991. Western leaders didn’t bring it up, either."

Scholars have landed on both sides of the debate.

Shifrinson, an associate professor of international relations at Boston University, wrote that while no formal agreement restricted NATO’s expansion, Baker and other diplomats had offered the Soviets verbal assurances that NATO would not enlarge to the east.

In an interview with PolitiFact, Shifrinson said that he still holds the same view, and that a new document he recently discovered in the British National Archives supports that case.

Fact-checking claims that NATO broke agreement on expansion

Two days before Russia invaded Ukraine with an assault that intelligence officials had warned was coming, conservative c

www.politifact.com

Congrats on finally addressing something that was the actual point of a post.

Your giant wall of text seems to confirm that there was no agreement in place. Vague assurances from other parties, the "spirit" of the deal, mixed messages from Gorbachev himself, and Baker stating "There was never any discussion of anything but (East Germany)."

Strange then of Waters to frame this as an ironclad promise in the interview. Seems like he needs to read a bit more.

 

[bourbons]

Meanwhile on Russian state TV




This is pretty much straight out of the Goebels / Nazi playbook. It is disturbing and reflects Putins fascist motivations for his war on a peaceful democratic Ukraine.

ParapMarkets - is this the 'other side' you were talking about?

 

[Zidane98]

Undoubtedly it is the west's fault that Ukraine wants to go down the path of democracy, freedom and paths to integration with the EU.


It couldn't possibly have anything to do with Russia being an imperialistic aggressive neighbor. Surely Russia is just a peaceful misunderstood nation surrounded by special operations, wars and invasions that is defending the rights of Ukranians to be free & independent.