2nds The SANFL Thread

[*PAF]

The SANFL is playing hardball because it is banking on it being too costly for the AFL teams to join another competition.
By the SANFL it means SANFL clubs because unlike in WA the AFL clubs have no saying in the football commission in SA.

Once push comes to shove and the AFL gets involved it will have no choice but to join the debate in a constructive manner and common sense will finally prevail. Atm there is no mission, no statement, no nothing coming from the SANFL, just plain old recalcitrance ... because it can.

 

[alex_is_on_fire]

The SANFL is playing hardball because it is banking on it being too costly for the AFL teams to join another competition.
By the SANFL it means SANFL clubs because unlike in WA the AFL clubs have no saying in the football commission in SA.

Once push comes to shove and the AFL gets involved it will have no choice but to join the debate in a constructive manner and common sense will finally prevail. Atm there is no mission, no statement, no nothing coming from the SANFL, just plain old recalcitrance ... because it can.

But your assuming the AFL care and actually get involved.

Look, I hope they do and we end up with an 18 team national reserves competition with playing list of 50 players. But I doubt they AFL will even care. They won't care about our 2 clubs until they can make some money or look like losing money but a reserves side won't change either if those 2 things.

They (the AFL) will see the status quo as being good enough.

 

[Team DJ]

But your assuming the AFL care and actually get involved.

Look, I hope they do and we end up with an 18 team national reserves competition with playing list of 50 players. But I doubt they AFL will even care. They won't care about our 2 clubs until they can make some money or look like losing money but a reserves side won't change either if those 2 things.

They (the AFL) will see the status quo as being good enough.

16 teams was perfect. The difference between best and worst is far to much. Bye Bye Roos and Dogs, welcome the Southern Saints (Tas) and we're away

 

[Tarasque36]

Win win, what a load of crap. It might be for Port, Adelaide and Port Magpies but its not a win for the other 8 clubs.
Would you like Adelaide to be competing against clubs in the AFL with a salary cap 20x that of Adelaide's?
I think not. Would you like it if other AFL clubs had totally different access to players to draft from than that of Adelaide? I think not. Would you like it if other AFL clubs had access to funding from the AFL that Adelaide will never get? I think not!
This is the exact point, this is what's being asked of the SANFL clubs and this is what you selfishly and myopically call a win win.
What a crock!

Really? Its that simple? Extra salary cap, different access to players, funding from the AFL.... Thats what they are crying about?
Do they forget there wont be access to their top 22 (or 23) players? Different access, yes.. but restricted! I'm unaware of SANFL current recruiting rules I must admit. And funding...that most wont go to the team playing SANFL anyway.... Weak excuses.
Hope they continue with it tho, cos I want the Reserves team in the VFL so I can watch!
(Therefore would it not help the finances of the SANFL because people like me (if I was in SA) would go to more games? Bonus gate recepits, extra drinks/food sold.)

 

[chazwazza]

Really? Its that simple? Extra salary cap, different access to players, funding from the AFL.... Thats what they are crying about?
Do they forget there wont be access to their top 22 (or 23) players? Different access, yes.. but restricted! I'm unaware of SANFL current recruiting rules I must admit. And funding...that most wont go to the team playing SANFL anyway.... Weak excuses.
Hope they continue with it tho, cos I want the Reserves team in the VFL so I can watch!
(Therefore would it not help the finances of the SANFL because people like me (if I was in SA) would go to more games? Bonus gate recepits, extra drinks/food sold.)

Maybe you misunderstand me.
My point is, the SANFL, like the AFL runs the comp under a series of equalization rules, the main ones being the salary cap, the draft and the dividing up of money returned to all clubs.
If Adelaide and Port want to field teams in the SANFL then they need to abide by those rules. It would be inherently unfair on the other 8 clubs that have strived to play by these rules for over 100 years that two clubs are given carte blanche to do as they will concerning these basic rules.
Will the other SANFL clubs be allowed to break the salary cap of $375,000 as they wish?
Will the other SANFL clubs receive direct funding from the AFL?
Will the other SANFL clubs get to participate in drafting players via the AFL draft?
All of these are an obvious answer of NO. As it should be.
However due to this, it causes an unfair playing field. The SANFL is a stand alone comp that is all about a fair playing field and a proud and viable comp in its own right. It's clubs, players and supporters deserve and have the right to protect this, and protect it fiercely.
I get very frustrated that many Adelaide or Port supporters that are pro AFL reserves teams in the SANFL refuse to aknowlege these inadequacies, I'm sure they wouldn't want their own AFL club to be playing under such blatantly unfair standards, I as an Adelaide supporter definately wouldn't and therefore I don't expect it to happen to other clubs and comps.
Again, if they want to join the SANFL then they need to find a way to abide by the basic rules. I can't see how they can possibly do this without massively breaking the SANFL salary cap.

 

[Apsaalooke]

Maybe you misunderstand me.
My point is, the SANFL, like the AFL runs the comp under a series of equalization rules, the main ones being the salary cap, the draft and the dividing up of money returned to all clubs.
If Adelaide and Port want to field teams in the SANFL then they need to abide by those rules. It would be inherently unfair on the other 8 clubs that have strived to play by these rules for over 100 years that two clubs are given carte blanche to do as they will concerning these basic rules.
Will the other SANFL clubs be allowed to break the salary cap of $375,000 as they wish?
Will the other SANFL clubs receive direct funding from the AFL?
Will the other SANFL clubs get to participate in drafting players via the AFL draft?
All of these are an obvious answer of NO. As it should be.
However due to this, it causes an unfair playing field. The SANFL is a stand alone comp that is all about a fair playing field and a proud and viable comp in its own right. It's clubs, players and supporters deserve and have the right to protect this, and protect it fiercely.
I get very frustrated that many Adelaide or Port supporters that are pro AFL reserves teams in the SANFL refuse to aknowlege these inadequacies, I'm sure they wouldn't want their own AFL club to be playing under such blatantly unfair standards, I as an Adelaide supporter definately wouldn't and therefore I don't expect it to happen to other clubs and comps.
Again, if they want to join the SANFL then they need to find a way to abide by the basic rules. I can't see how they can possibly do this without massively breaking the SANFL salary cap.

So what you're saying is that the Crows/Port reserves will be too strong as they have unfair advantages.
Why then do those against this concept argue that they will be too weak due to junior bodies, project players, top ups, injuries, lack of incentive to win a flag etc etc?

Which one is it?

 

[chazwazza]

So what you're saying is that the Crows/Port reserves will be too strong as they have unfair advantages.
Why then do those against this concept argue that they will be too weak due to junior bodies, project players, top ups, injuries, lack of incentive to win a flag etc etc?

Which one is it?

I haven't said any of that. It's some people's argument. My point is that it will be an unfair playing field to have two teams that don't have to fall under the salary cap as one example.
Is that too hard to understand?
Do you see the problem here?
Do you want Collingwood to have a cap of 15 million and Adelaide to have to abide to one of 8.7 million?
Do you think that is fair?
It's a question of ethics. What is fair and just. What the two clubs want is not fair and just for the other 8 clubs.
And I thought the Port board was myopic!

 

[AFC979810]

Hallelujah "At some point the SANFL needs to be left to its own devices".

That's the crux of SANFL posters argument.
Leave the SANFL alone,take the Crows and Power players out of their competition and go somewhere else.
Easy to understand but it seems very hard for some to comprehend.

The SANFL followers support their team, they really don't care which AFL player is there. Sure they support them if they are playing but it's all about the team and a balanced competition.
They don't hate the AFL they just don't want the intrusion of two teams full of AFL listed players.

If the standard goes down so be it but their team they support will still be playing.
The Magpies can play in the SANFL as long as they have no AFL listed players.
There is no conspiracy here against the Crows or Port they just want a competition that has every team playing under the same conditions.

As an aside I heard an interview with Rory Sloane who said he loved his time at North Adelaide. He got to met new people that weren't involved with the Crows and it gave him a chance to get away from the AFL environment. He is still firm friends with those blokes now and still socialises with them.

SANFL clubs at present do enable AFL listed players to met a broader range of people.This at least allows them time away from their working environment.How big a factor it is in keeping a young player happy who knows but it would be hard working and socialising with the same group of players all the time.(Mainly interstate players who have no other network of friends when they arrive.)

Dangerfield coaches at Westies and I'm sure he appreciates the 'variety' it brings to his week.

I know Sando is talking about "the reserves" as everyone being on the same page when playing on the field but off the field surely there must be occasions when you would want to get away from the team and be with other people who still share your same interest.

Surely the weakest argument yet on this topic.

Rory Sloane enjoyed his time at an SANFL club and made some friends? Who gives a shit?

Your argument that having our players play in the SANFL so they have a chance to broaden their social network and be happier is hilarious. Completely 100% irrelevant.

What happens big picture if the Crows and Power take their teams to the VFL and as a result the SANFL is left to its own devices separate from the Crows and Power? The SANFL will become the 4th best AFL competition in the land (AFL,VFL,WAFL,SANFL). Better players will go to the VFL/WAFL to try and get a shot at playing AFL.

Lets face it. The SANFL is irrelevant. The Crows need to do whatever they think is best - even if it pisses off the existing SANFL clubs.

 

[CrowAboutIt]

If the crows players want to broaden their social group surely they could just hop on dating sites (oasis/lavalife?) I'm sure they'd meet a few "people" on there and be properly entertained enough for them to stay in SA

 

[Cap]

I haven't said any of that. It's some people's argument. My point is that it will be an unfair playing field to have two teams that don't have to fall under the salary cap as one example.
Is that too hard to understand?
Do you see the problem here?
Do you want Collingwood to have a cap of 15 million and Adelaide to have to abide to one of 8.7 million?
Do you think that is fair?
It's a question of ethics. What is fair and just. What the two clubs want is not fair and just for the other 8 clubs.
And I thought the Port board was myopic!

That's all fine, bit the sanfl can't have it both ways and should allow a crows reserve team in the VFL.

 

[*PAF]

Maybe you misunderstand me.
My point is, the SANFL, like the AFL runs the comp under a series of equalization rules, the main ones being the salary cap, the draft and the dividing up of money returned to all clubs.
...

That is the end of any point you were trying to make.

Dividing up what money? Where does the money come from?
Without the money generated by the AFL clubs the SANFL runs at a loss.
Cook the goose and the supply of golden eggs is gone. Look after the goose and the eggs will continue to come in.
The SANFL has no option but to look after the AFL clubs if it wants to survive, it isn't an us Vs them situation but an us and them.

Unfortunately the SANFL in SA is stuffed and they set up a football commission in much the same way as a government sets up many inquiries and that is by deciding what the outcome will be before starting any investigation. There is no AFL representation in the commission, therefore the commission is not there to do what is best for SA footy but purely to hang on to a stupid theory that the AFL may fall over one day and the glory days will come back.

EDIT:
SA Football Commission
http://www.sanfl.com.au/the_sanfl/sa_football_commission/

The SA Football Commission manages and controls the affairs of the League, including its major financial investments and the appointment of committees.

WA Football Commission
http://wafc.com.au/

The West Australian Football Commission is the caretaker of football throughout the State and responsible for the overall development of the game

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

I haven't said any of that. It's some people's argument. My point is that it will be an unfair playing field to have two teams that don't have to fall under the salary cap as one example.
Is that too hard to understand?
Do you see the problem here?
Do you want Collingwood to have a cap of 15 million and Adelaide to have to abide to one of 8.7 million?
Do you think that is fair?
It's a question of ethics. What is fair and just. What the two clubs want is not fair and just for the other 8 clubs.
And I thought the Port board was myopic!

And yet, the VFL and WAFL will all be operating under this exact system next year.

But of course the SANFL couldn't possibly because the AFL reserves teams would be too strong and disinterested

 

[*PAF]

This is my opinion only so please do not ask for sauce etc.

I think and have posted as much in many threads over many years that there was is opportunity to find a unique SA solution. Unfortunately it looks as if that opportunity has gone and SA will end up copying solutions that other states have come up with. That is like playing catch up football and the best you can end up doing is being as good as them, not better.

There was an opportunity to utilise the AFL clubs to help all SANFL clubs as well as themselves.
Things like a state football recovery/medical centre could have been established and made available to all clubs AFL and SANFL clubs alike. Minimise expenses and maximise outputs. SANFL clubs would have access to facilities they can only dream of and the AFC and Port would be ahead of the pack.
A way could have been worked out for the AFL clubs to share their resources with local SANFL clubs. Gym, coaching clinics, physio etc etc
Curtain raiser games and work out a gate sharing arrangement with the AFL. This would, increase income, TV exposure, SANFL and in particular younger players get to play in front of larger crowds. Older SANFL players get greater opportunities to play in front of AFL scouts (more would want to come over and play in the SANFL), etc etc.

The positives that can be achieved if one wants to look for good solutions are massive but the current attitude of we just want your money and hope fall over so that we can go back to the good old days when we were a significant player has stuffed everything up.

Good solutions are needed but time is running out fast.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Great posts *PAF

Your observation about the us and them mentality instead of us versus them sums it up perfectly. Opportunities missed.

Sadly nose, spite and faces seems to be the order of the day.

 

[chazwazza]

And yet, the VFL and WAFL will all be operating under this exact system next year.

But of course the SANFL couldn't possibly because the AFL reserves teams would be too strong and disinterested

Again not answering certain points directly

 

[*PAF]

Again not answering certain points directly

What points?
For every "black" answer, people like you say "white".
For every "white" answer, people like you will then say "black".

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Again not answering certain points directly

It absolutely, directly answers every single point you have made.

Your reasoning that it will be "unfair" if there are AFL reserves teams in the SANFL could equally be applied to the WAFL and VFL situations.

If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for us IMO.

If you are trying to place the SANFL on some sort of pedestal where the inequities interstate should not apply here then you are living in a delusional 80's world where the SANFL is still king.

 

[Team DJ]

How can people say theyd be too strong?

Port and Sturt are basically reserves now and suck. Chuck in a couple of extra AFL listed guys (some of which are playing reserves atm) and at best theyd be mid table.

 

[*PAF]

How can people say theyd be too strong?

Port and Sturt are basically reserves now and suck. Chuck in a couple of extra AFL listed guys (some of which are playing reserves atm) and at best theyd be mid table.

Ah yeah, but now the same people will turn around and say that not having strong teams is a bad point.
Just like the Cullinan example earlier in the thread that conveniently ignored McLeod, Johncock and Scott Thompson.

 

[chazwazza]

This is my opinion only so please do not ask for sauce etc.

I think and have posted as much in many threads over many years that there was is opportunity to find a unique SA solution. Unfortunately it looks as if that opportunity has gone and SA will end up copying solutions that other states have come up with. That is like playing catch up football and the best you can end up doing is being as good as them, not better.

There was an opportunity to utilise the AFL clubs to help all SANFL clubs as well as themselves.
Things like a state football recovery/medical centre could have been established and made available to all clubs AFL and SANFL clubs alike. Minimise expenses and maximise outputs. SANFL clubs would have access to facilities they can only dream of and the AFC and Port would be ahead of the pack.
A way could have been worked out for the AFL clubs to share their resources with local SANFL clubs. Gym, coaching clinics, physio etc etc
Curtain raiser games and work out a gate sharing arrangement with the AFL. This would, increase income, TV exposure, SANFL and in particular younger players get to play in front of larger crowds. Older SANFL players get greater opportunities to play in front of AFL scouts (more would want to come over and play in the SANFL), etc etc.

The positives that can be achieved if one wants to look for good solutions are massive but the current attitude of we just want your money and hope fall over so that we can go back to the good old days when we were a significant player has stuffed everything up.

Good solutions are needed but time is running out fast.

Some reasonable ideas there.
I don't see how a football medical centre would make Port or Adelaide better than the rest but it's a thought. It's my understanding that some SANFL clubs do use some facilities at Adelaide or Port.
I'll stand corrected though.
Curtain raiser games were tried years ago and stopped then again a few years back with Ports one club push. I went to a Port Sturt game and there would've been about 2-3000 people there. I remember standing near an old magpies lady and her daughter and they were irate that they had to go to footy park to watch the magpies, I'm not sure what they paid to get in. Wasn't a good look. And more and more, the AFL want to lessen the traffic on the grounds and then there's restrictions as to when the curtain raiser needs to finish due to AFL players' warm ups. Sounds ridiculous but that's the AFL. Re scouts, AFL clubs spend a stupid amount of money on scouts all over the country, having SANFL games as curtain raisers isn't going to change anything.

I'm not waiting for the AFL to fall over, and I very rarely hear that said. I enjoy following Adelaide, I'm disappointed that we couldn't hold out for a truly national comp with a view to expand to a relegation system so every club could aspire to the national stage, unfortunately once WA folded and then Port the gig was up and we're left with this bastard son of the VFL.
I'm all for solutions, I'm all for AFL clubs taking their players into a reserves team, but not in the SANFL League, by all means in the reserves. If PAFC can afford it then keep the Magpies in the SANFL league but with no AFL players and having to fall under the salary cap, just like the other 8 clubs.
For the life of me I don't see how you can have two clubs wanting to join a comp and not expect to abide by the intrinsic values of fairness. I'm not anti AFL, I'm pro a workable solution. I'm absolutely pro keeping the integrity of the SANFL league.

 

[Freddy Bassett]

The answer is obvious. An AFL reserves competition. Is the AFL not making enough money?

 

[*PAF]

The answer is obvious. An AFL reserves competition. Is the AFL not making enough money?

Again my opinion only but IMO too expensive (waste of money) and not enough in it for the local leagues.

 

[Freddy Bassett]

Again my opinion only but IMO too expensive (waste of money) and not enough in it for the local leagues.

Port have to travel 10 times a year.

 

[*PAF]

Some reasonable ideas there.
...

Just a few from the top of my head. I am sure that if people sat down they could find many more and that is the point (only point) I have been trying to make.

...
I don't see how a football medical centre would make Port or Adelaide better than the rest but it's a thought. ...

This is only an example and I am sure you could find many more, and even better ones.
Port has just purchased an Anti-Gravity Treadmill and would like more but cannot afford it. I believe the Crows have one as I read somewhere that Port was the last club to do so but I could be wrong.
If there was a clinic, Port could buy two, the Crows two and the SANFL 2.
All of a sudden there are 6 available for the AFL clubs (more than enough) and the SANFL clubs have access to new unaffordable but much needed technology. The football department expenses for both AFL clubs have been minimised and outputs immensely maximised. Gain for the AFL clubs, gain for the SANFL clubs.
Please do not tell me (not you personally chaz, but in general) that sharing arrangements cannot be found.

...
Curtain raiser games were tried years ago and stopped then again a few years back with Ports one club push. I went to a Port Sturt game and there would've been about 2-3000 people there. I remember standing near an old magpies lady and her daughter and they were irate that they had to go to footy park to watch the magpies, I'm not sure what they paid to get in. Wasn't a good look. And more and more, the AFL want to lessen the traffic on the grounds and then there's restrictions as to when the curtain raiser needs to finish due to AFL players' warm ups. Sounds ridiculous but that's the AFL. Re scouts, AFL clubs spend a stupid amount of money on scouts all over the country, having SANFL games as curtain raisers isn't going to change anything.
...

Friday night games were a bust for a long time now Friday night is the prime slot.
Had they given up early on ...

...
I'm not waiting for the AFL to fall over, and I very rarely hear that said. I enjoy following Adelaide, I'm disappointed that we couldn't hold out for a truly national comp with a view to expand to a relegation system so every club could aspire to the national stage, unfortunately once WA folded and then Port the gig was up and we're left with this bastard son of the VFL.
...

I was living in Adelaide at the time and IMO the SANFL went for too much and ended up with nothing. Bit of deja vous happening atm. Are the same people involved?

wrt the bastard son of the AFL, what we have now is already better than what we had 15 years ago and with some work it will be better again. As much as any Victorian would not like to hear this, even they must realise than in time it will be a truly National comp and not one ruled by any one of the states. The expansion happening atm will ensure that and that is part of the reason why GWS and GCS must succeed.

wrt Port getting a gig, if it wasn't Port then it should have been Norwood but again that is only my personal opinion and a different debate.

...
...
I'm all for solutions, I'm all for AFL clubs taking their players into a reserves team, but not in the SANFL League, by all means in the reserves. If PAFC can afford it then keep the Magpies in the SANFL league but with no AFL players and having to fall under the salary cap, just like the other 8 clubs.
For the life of me I don't see how you can have two clubs wanting to join a comp and not expect to abide by the intrinsic values of fairness. I'm not anti AFL, I'm pro a workable solution. I'm absolutely pro keeping the integrity of the SANFL league.

The PAFC have already given up their seat in the SANFL for the one club bid and now there is a chance they will lose even more.
IMO best solution is for the Magpies to stay as they are juniors etc and become the reserves team at the same time.
For the AFC it gets a bit trickier as you wouldn't want to start from scratch with underage teams etc but there are options and they have to be found sooner rather than later.


Another aside, Port have pushed most of the issues publicly but IMO that is only because they can (due to make up of the board etc) I am sure that behind the scenes the AFC has been supporting a lot of what Port have done but need to time what they say to avoid backlash.

wrt the integrity of the SANFL league I am not sure any of us knows what that means any more, the SANFL needs to come out with a vision for the future of the SANFL and then we will know.

 

[Elite Crow]

Interesting listening to the heated debate on 5AA this morning.

Went something like this:

Shutts: I reckon it will happen, the SANFL and the clubs are coming to the realisation that commercially a Crows second side in the SANFL makes sense
Rucci: won't happen, I've spoken to the Presidents and they say no
Shuts: I've spoken to the CEOs and they are warming to it
Rucci: but I've spoken to the Presidents and they make the decisions
Shuts: yes, but they are going to take advice from their management
Rucci: youre just a parrot for the Crows
Shuts: you are a w***er.

Ok I made that last bit up but the way Rucci was talking over Shutts and getting all worked up because Shutts was expressing his opinion of what might happen was a disgrace.