2nds The SANFL Thread

[Mismatched]

Different case.. Back then we had a veritable Dad's Army of players approaching their 30th birthdays, so the club instituted a policy whereby only the best players were retained after their 30th birthday. Even then we ended up with 6 players aged 30+ on our list at one point.

As of today, we have 2 players aged 30+, Johncock & Callinan. Reilly & Rutten will join them, but Johncock will depart at the end of the year.

Completely different situation.

Different situations most definitely, Torney had a far greater claim to another season than Callinan does. As has been highlighted, Torney played almost every game that year and was in good form. Callinan has played 3 of a possible 11 games (missed rd 1 with injury) for a grand total of 2 goals as a specialist small forward, having failed to perform miserably in our finals campaign the year before.

I'm sorry, but this is very much a player on his last chance and would need to pull something special to remain on our list next year.

 

[Stinger...]

Different situations most definitely, Torney had a far greater claim to another season than Callinan does. As has been highlighted, Torney played almost every game that year and was in good form. Callinan has played 3 of a possible 11 games (missed rd 1 with injury) for a grand total of 2 goals as a specialist small forward, having failed to perform miserably in our finals campaign the year before.

I'm sorry, but this is very much a player on his last chance and would need to pull something special to remain on our list next year.

I have to agree. Callinan just hasn't done enough and assuming he doesn't burn it up in the second half of the year, he'll be fired!

 

[Jack is Back]

LJ has suffered a similar fate to Lynch last year. Our coaching panel couldn't work out what role to give him so they left him in the SANFL. I wouldn't put my money on either player having a long career but I wouldn't write off LJ just yet.

 

[Archie87]

We just have to move on from players like Callinan if we're to go anywhere. He's just too slow, too small and offers nothing defensively. We can't play both him and Porps in the same side. We need to be using his spot up forward to blood young mids as a spot to rotate through.

 

[johnnypanther]

LJ has suffered a similar fate to Lynch last year. Our coaching panel couldn't work out what role to give him so they left him in the SANFL. I wouldn't put my money on either player having a long career but I wouldn't write off LJ just yet.

and unfortunately he got injured at the wrong time - he would be the obvious missing key forward component in our forward line currently because he plays and thinks like a key forward, he can lead and he can kick straight! and he kicks goals. (Jenkins plays like a flanker as does Lynch and Smack is more a stationery target).
Maybe Johnston will never be good enough, but unless he gets a decent crack at it, we'll never know. His career so far has suffered through injuries at the most inappropriate of times.

It is interesting to note that Johnston is only 4 months older than the Power's hyped up "future" (Butcher).

 

[Vader]

Different situations most definitely, Torney had a far greater claim to another season than Callinan does. As has been highlighted, Torney played almost every game that year and was in good form. Callinan has played 3 of a possible 11 games (missed rd 1 with injury) for a grand total of 2 goals as a specialist small forward, having failed to perform miserably in our finals campaign the year before.

There is no argument that Torney was hard done by. He would have been given at least another 1-2 years had our list situation been different from what it was. No argument also that his performances were stronger than Callinan's.

I'm sorry, but this is very much a player on his last chance and would need to pull something special to remain on our list next year.

What's likely to save Callinan is the sheer number of players ahead of him in the chopping order: Johncock, Tambling, Joyce, Riley, LJ, L Thompson, Martin, Jaensch. That makes him #9 on the chopping list at best - and that's before we consider any possible defections (Porps, Smack, Otten). I can't see us cutting the list that deeply, particularly given the Tiprat penalties eliminating us from the 1st and 2nd rounds of the draft. On that basis alone, Callinan survives to play another season.

 

[Vader]

We just have to move on from players like Callinan if we're to go anywhere. He's just too slow, too small and offers nothing defensively. We can't play both him and Porps in the same side. We need to be using his spot up forward to blood young mids as a spot to rotate through.

Hopefully next year he becomes a "depth player" and is gone by 2015. I have no problem with that at all.

What I have a problem with is people suggesting that he should be delisted this year, solely on the basis of age, when there are at least 8 candidates ahead of him on the chopping block, none of whom are performing anywhere near as well as Callinan.

 

[Vader]

and unfortunately he got injured at the wrong time - he would be the obvious missing key forward component in our forward line currently because he plays and thinks like a key forward, he can lead and he can kick straight! and he kicks goals. (Jenkins plays like a flanker as does Lynch and Smack is more a stationery target).
Maybe Johnston will never be good enough, but unless he gets a decent crack at it, we'll never know. His career so far has suffered through injuries at the most inappropriate of times.

It is interesting to note that Johnston is only 4 months older than the Power's hyped up "future" (Butcher).

If I were a betting man, I'd put my money on him still being in the SANFL right now, even if he hadn't busted his leg at just the wrong time. The selectors have never shown any interest in him being anything other than a "break glass in case of emergency" type player - the same as Riley & Thompson. With Lynch, JJ & McKernan all fit, LJ would continue to play in the SANFL for as far as the eye can see. He'd probably be preferred to Graham & Thompson for a position on the emergency list each week, but the odds on him actually getting a game (without further injuries opening up a vacancy) would be around 1000:1.

I love how people come up with motherhood statements like "unless he gets a decent crack at it, we'll never know". Sorry, but that's bollocks. Pure bollocks. The coaches see him perform at training on a daily basis. They also watch and/or review all of his SANFL performances. They know exactly what he is and is not capable of. They have a very good idea of what it takes to make it in the AFL (as distinct from the SANFL) and it's abundantly clear that they don't rate him particularly highly at all.

 

[Cap]

Vader, outside your view that people not listed as emergency are miles off selection, what information to you possess that has LJ so far from the selectors minds?

 

[Vader]

Vader, outside your view that people not listed as emergency are miles off selection, what information to you possess that has LJ so far from the selectors minds?

You mean outside the fact that he's never actually been selected, whereas every single one of his direct peers has been given multiple opportunities at the senior level? Sorry.. he played 1 game, in R20 last year, when our finals position had already been secured.. the same number of games as Tambling (who only survived because he had a $300k contract for 2013) and one less than Symes (who was delisted). The only reason he played at all last year was Sando's desire to see every player on his list at least once on the big stage, other than those who still in the foetal stages of their player development. The end result was that we played 38 players last year, 8 of whom played 3 games or less.

Of those 8 players, we can divide them up into 2 groups. Lyons, Brown & Kerridge were all developing kids, who have taken the next step in 2013. Tambling, Johnson, McIntyre, Symes and Luke Thompson are all duds who were, or soon will be, delisted.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

If we have older players who are on the fringe at best, there is fair chance they will be delisted, with a view to the future, given they won't be part of our next flag.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

You mean outside the fact that he's never actually been selected, whereas every single one of his direct peers has been given multiple opportunities at the senior level? Sorry.. he played 1 game, in R20 last year, when our finals position had already been secured.. the same number of games as Tambling (who only survived because he had a $300k contract for 2013) and one less than Symes (who was delisted). The only reason he played at all last year was Sando's desire to see every player on his list at least once on the big stage, other than those who still in the foetal stages of their player development. The end result was that we played 38 players last year, 8 of whom played 3 games or less.

Of those 8 players, we can divide them up into 2 groups. Lyons, Brown & Kerridge were all developing kids, who have taken the next step in 2013. Tambling, Johnson, McIntyre, Symes and Luke Thompson are all duds who were, or soon will be, delisted.

Johnson has not been given a decent chance at AFL level & would have been picked by now if not for the injury. Also, as a tall they take longer to develop. He is a beautiful kick & has some decent attributes, so it is way to early to put him in the dud category with the others who are meh players with no decent attributes.

 

[Vader]

If we have older players who are on the fringe at best, there is fair chance they will be delisted, with a view to the future, given they won't be part of our next flag.

I'd buy that if there weren't at least 8 players in the "dead wood" category who have to be chopped before Callinan.

Johnson has not been given a decent chance at AFL level & would have been picked by now if not for the injury. Also, as a tall they take longer to develop. He is a beautiful kick & has some decent attributes, so it is way to early to put him in the dud category with the others who are meh players with no decent attributes.

How much longer is he expected to take? He was drafted the same year as Davi$, McKernan and Lynch, one year after Walker.

Davi$ has played 45 AFL games.
Lynch has played 19 AFL games.
McKernan has played 29 AFL games.
Tex has played 69 AFL games.
....
LJ has played 3 AFL games - all of them gifted.

His numbers just don't stack up against his peers. He's been left in the dust, because he's just not as good as the rest of the players from his draft.

Players are given "a decent chance" when they prove that they deserve it, through their performances in the SANFL and on the training track. LJ hasn't been given "a decent chance" because he hasn't done enough to earn it. It's got nothing to do with injury, he simply hasn't done enough to justify putting his name in front of the selectors.

Right now, LJ belongs in the same category as Riley & Luke Thompson. "Break glass in case of emergency". These players aren't going to get selected based on their own merits, because they just don't stack up compared to their peers. The only chance these players have of getting selected is if there are sufficient injuries that the selectors have no choice in the matter. For a player in his 5th year on an AFL list, at his 2nd club, that's not good enough. The odds of him being given a 6th year are no better than 50/50. Even Matthew Smith only lasted 5 years, for a not dissimilar output.

 

[Vader]

Having compared him with his peers on our list, I thought I'd have a look at how he compares against his peers from the rest of his draft. It doesn't make for pretty reading:
http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_drafts?year=2008&t=N&s=P

LJ was originally drafted by Sydney, at pick #12. Of the first 44 players selected in that draft, only 2 have failed to play 10+ games - LJ (3 games) and Mitch Brown (Geelong - pick #15 - 9 games). Only 5 have failed to play 20+ - Ayce Cordy (Footscray - F/S selection - 17 games), Tom Gillies (Geelong - pick #33 - 15 games) and Mitch Banner (Port - pick #42 - 19 games).

The average games played by the top-20 players is 53.6 games.

Just to reiterate.. LJ has played 3 AFL games.

Of the 79 players selected in his draft (including rookie promotions), only 17 have played fewer games than LJ.

At what point do people begin to accept that he just doesn't measure up to his peers - and admit that it's time to bite the bullet.

 

[Vader]

It's also worth noting that only 3 of the 17 players with fewer games than LJ are still on an AFL list. He is one of only 4 players with less than 9 games to still be on a team list. He's lucky his career has lasted as long as it has.

** One of the players below him on the list is Tom Lee.. who was delisted by Adelaide after 1 year and is now on St Kilda's team list.

 

[cmndstab]

I'm really not that interested in how many games he's played to this point. There can be any number of reasons why a player doesn't play many games early in his career. Simply not being good enough is one (and the most common), but lack of opportunity, team balance, late developer and so on are others.

What I'm interested in is whether he can play a role for our team now, and into the future. His SANFL form has ranged from decent to excellent. I would say that he has done "enough" to warrant a game if we need a player in his position. While Walker was around, we didn't need that player. We now do. Whether he then grasps that position and makes something of it is another story.

Simply saying that "he hasn't played much, so he shouldn't ever play again" is too simplistic. I'd say there would be a fairly high likelihood of his name being thrown up over the last few weeks if he hadn't gotten injured.

 

[Freddy Bassett]

You mean outside the fact that he's never actually been selected, whereas every single one of his direct peers has been given multiple opportunities at the senior level? Sorry.. he played 1 game, in R20 last year, when our finals position had already been secured.. the same number of games as Tambling (who only survived because he had a $300k contract for 2013) and one less than Symes (who was delisted). The only reason he played at all last year was Sando's desire to see every player on his list at least once on the big stage, other than those who still in the foetal stages of their player development. The end result was that we played 38 players last year, 8 of whom played 3 games or less.

Of those 8 players, we can divide them up into 2 groups. Lyons, Brown & Kerridge were all developing kids, who have taken the next step in 2013. Tambling, Johnson, McIntyre, Symes and Luke Thompson are all duds who were, or soon will be, delisted.

Do you think the fact we had 2 gun key forwards last year may of impacted his chances of selection?
And do you think being injured for the majority of this year may have ruined his chances?

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Vader did LJ sledge you or something as you really have an axe to grind with him.

LJ is not in the same bracket as Symes, Luke Thompson, etc ... as he does have weapons, whereas the others are meh players - your 1st mistake.

LJ did play consistent footy at SANFL level prior to his injury & IMO made a mistake not picking him the week he got injured (after the Tex injury).

LJ will be given another year at least to see whether he can make it. Talls take longer to develop & come through the system.

I'm not saying he will make it at AFL level, but it is way too early to make the call.

Most of your reasoning above misses the mark.

 

[Elder van Berlo]

Hopefully next year he becomes a "depth player" and is gone by 2015. I have no problem with that at all.

What I have a problem with is people suggesting that he should be delisted this year, solely on the basis of age, when there are at least 8 candidates ahead of him on the chopping block, none of whom are performing anywhere near as well as Callinan.

If this was true, people would also be calling for Scott Thompson and Ben Rutten (who are only a few months younger than Callinan) to be delisted.

It's not his age that's the problem, it's the lack of either output or up side. In fact, it's already more than arguable that Callinan is on the downhill slide that besets even the best players late in their careers. His performances this year even at SANFL level have ranged from poor to mediocre.

I agree with you that there are others who should go before Callinan. I think it's possible that he may be saved by that fact, particularly given we are unlikely to want to draft all the way to pick 150. But I can't see how people are suggesting that he has somehow earned another year on the list by his performances this year.

 

[Team DJ]

I like how much Vader still backs himself in when everybody and i mean everybody has told him hes wrong.

At least he sticks by his guns. As wrong as they may be

 

[Vader]

Do you think the fact we had 2 gun key forwards last year may of impacted his chances of selection?
And do you think being injured for the majority of this year may have ruined his chances?

Both of whom were absent for large parts of the season (Tex due to suspension, Tiprat due to concussion). McKernan played 6 games last year, JJ played 11, Lynch played 6. LJ played 1.

Nope.. I don't buy that excuse. Not for a single second.

As for being injured this year.. he didn't get injured until a week after Tex. His name was never mentioned in selection discussions prior to Tex going down. For R6 he was on the emergency list, which is hardly surprising given that all of our half-decent (and some of them are only half-decent) talls were already in the team. They usually reserve one slot on the extended bench for a tall - and it came down to a choice between LJ, Graham & Thompson (LJ happened to be the least worst option available).

Sorry.. I don't buy that excuse either.

The facts are simple..

• LJ is the worst performed player from the first 45 selections in his draft.
• Of the 17 players from his draft to have played fewer games, only 3 remain on an AFL list - and one of those is on his 2nd life, having been delisted, spending 2 years in the WAFL before getting re-drafted.
• He has spent 4 1/2 years on 2 AFL lists for just 3 AFL games, none of which were due to LJ's performances demanding selection.
• Even with Tex & Tiprat both out of the way, the best he could hope for was the emergency list.
• He is clearly a "break glass in emergency" player, along with Riley & Thompson, with no hope of getting a senior game on his own merits, without injuries creating a vacancy.

Why on earth would they give him a 6th season?

 

[craig crowing]

I like how much Vader still backs himself in when everybody and i mean everybody has told him hes wrong.

At least he sticks by his guns. As wrong as they may be

Well I think Vader is right but think he is wrong .
Why might be right.
Like Lynch last year they just didnt give him a chance when other forwards were stinking it and the week he got injured was Tex first game out and did not get opportunity.
Is it something holding him back internally we dont know or is the opposite to pet Pets getting regular game that Sando does not care about talent only pure aggression.

Why I think wrong.
Think he has talent and even in game last season showed can provide a leading option and WOW can actually kick a goal .
Lets face it how many goals are our resting ruck (Smack etc ) and rotating mids -- forwards scoring apart from Kerridge who has been dumped.
And screamed all last year to get Lynch in and now doing great job for us especially as doesnt have Tex to apply even more pressure on opposition defenders.
We dont get opportunity to get talented players very often with low draft picks and of course now our Trigg restrictions so I believe we should give those we get a real opportunity rather than those going nowhere or limited in talent.
Maybe when back could take JJ role and put him back in Fwd - ruck role as least JJ will score some goals and compete in air and on ground and certainly do no worse than smack in rucking department .

 

[Vader]

LJ is not in the same bracket as Symes, Luke Thompson, etc ... as he does have weapons, whereas the others are meh players - your 1st mistake.

Symes has weapons.. just not enough weapons and not the right weapons to succeed in the AFL. The same, I suspect, goes for LJ.

LJ will be given another year at least to see whether he can make it. Talls take longer to develop & come through the system.

I'm not saying he will make it at AFL level, but it is way too early to make the call.

At the end of this season he will have been on AFL lists for 5 years and Adelaide's list for 2. Barring injury to Lynch, JJ or McKernan it is unlikely that he will add further to his tally by season's end.

Just how many years should we be giving players to prove themselves? Is 5 not enough?

 

[Vader]

If this was true, people would also be calling for Scott Thompson and Ben Rutten (who are only a few months younger than Callinan) to be delisted.

It's not his age that's the problem, it's the lack of either output or up side. In fact, it's already more than arguable that Callinan is on the downhill slide that besets even the best players late in their careers. His performances this year even at SANFL level have ranged from poor to mediocre.

I agree with you that there are others who should go before Callinan. I think it's possible that he may be saved by that fact, particularly given we are unlikely to want to draft all the way to pick 150. But I can't see how people are suggesting that he has somehow earned another year on the list by his performances this year.

I have not argued any other reason why Callinan would/should get another contract for 2014.

As for saying that he has earned another year on the list by his performances.. it's his performance level relative to those ahead of him on the chopping block - most of whom aren't even remotely close to gaining AFL selection.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Symes has weapons.. just not enough weapons and not the right weapons to succeed in the AFL. The same, I suspect, goes for LJ.

At the end of this season he will have been on AFL lists for 5 years and Adelaide's list for 2. Barring injury to Lynch, JJ or McKernan it is unlikely that he will add further to his tally by season's end.

Just how many years should we be giving players to prove themselves? Is 5 not enough?

What weapon did Symes have - ordinary disposal, not overly quick. Apart from giving 100% he didn't have any great attributes.

LJ is a proven goal-kicker at SANFL level & accurate kick for goal. It's not like we are overflowing with goal-kicking forwards at the moment...