The Serious Covid Thread - For Those Who Want Serious Discussion

[Antz]

I recall they all wore masks and no one spread the virus back then

That's nice that they all wore masks. Have you got proof that no one spread the virus? I agree that people must adhere to the lockdown restrictions. These
anti-lockdown protesters are absolute idiots but the left media will report only on matters that suit their own agenda. Those BLM protesters were idiots as well and were putting the health and safety of Victorians at risk.

 

[sr36]

I won't lie, the hostility I feel towards the anti-lockdown/anti-vaccination protestors doesn't sit easily in me. It is nothing less than rage: that these people are so stupid, that their affinity for superstition and myth could extend this lockdown, that their ignorance and simplistic conception of freedom endangers the lives of other people.

I detest these people. If any of my own family were among them, I'd be sure to never share a table with them again.

Black_White used the term 'collaborators' the other day, which I first chuckled about, but after realised that I feel a bit the same way. Is that right, are these people traitors to the rest of us?

Unlike a collaborator, who acknowledges the broader threat but decides to act out of fear or self-interest, the people marching in the street actually believe or seem to believe that they are fighting the good fight. For them, the cause is just.

My hatred won't persuade them. No matter how many ways I find to express my contempt for them and their views, they won't shift, and might well only reinforce them in their worldview.

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What's the solution? Rational discussion?

These people aren't buying that. We've seen it on this board, the way in which anti-lockdown and anti-vaccination types shut down once their perspectives are challenged. Like Jaidyn Stephenson, they can't handle and therefore don't welcome a reply...unless you're of a like mind.

And then they will claim to be silenced, which is either a tactic to deflect analysis or a mechanism to insulate their beliefs.

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Other than shaming them and a zero tolerance law and order response to any breaches, what can be done?

From an educators perspective, you don't give up, you try different ways to get the message across.

Regardless of the message, I found it unbelievable to see Andrews deliver exactly the same message in exactly the same way using exactly the same mode every day for about 150 days in a row. It was appalling communication.

And the education and communication around the vaccine appears to have been even worse.

You're not going to get any message across to everyone, but they're operating as though educational theory hasn't moved since 1920. It's time they walked the walk of looking at the research - the research on effective communication.

 

[ZEV]

You're not going to get any message across to everyone, but they're operating as though educational theory hasn't moved since 1920. It's time they walked the walk of looking at the research - the research on effective communication.

What would be the best way in your opinion?

 

[Daicos Torpedo]

That's nice that they all wore masks. Have you got proof that no one spread the virus? I agree that people must adhere to the lockdown restrictions. These
anti-lockdown protesters are absolute idiots but the left media will report only on matters that suit their own agenda. Those BLM protesters were idiots as well and were putting the health and safety of Victorians at risk.

I have no proof. I'm pretty sure if you can be bothered to look, the figures before the rally and after did not change due to the rally. The right wing media at the time called blm rallies as they saw fit.

 

[sr36]

What would be the best way in your opinion?

Multi-modes, multi voices, multiple ways of appealing.

I don't think there has even be reasoning to those who don't get the initial reasoning. They've just been written off as beyond reasoning.

You look at the grandstanding from the relevant players about the protests and they're just trying to get pats on the back from people who already agree with them. You're not going to change anyone's mind by opening with "you're an idiot scumbag" I'm not talking about comments from people on social media, who are just venting their frustration, but those speaking from their positions need to temper that as they're just entrenching attitudes amongst those they need to convert.

I don't see any attempt to change minds or campaign a view at all. Hunt is the only one who I think makes an attempt.

 

[ZEV]

I have no proof. I'm pretty sure if you can be bothered to look, the figures before the rally and after did not change due to the rally. The right wing media at the time called blm rallies as they saw fit.

The Melbourne Black Lives Matter protest was 6th June 2020. Have a look at the timing of the second wave in Melbourne.

 

[JB1975]

From an educators perspective, you don't give up, you try different ways to get the message across.

Regardless of the message, I found it unbelievable to see Andrews deliver exactly the same message in exactly the same way using exactly the same mode every day for about 150 days in a row. It was appalling communication.

And the education and communication around the vaccine appears to have been even worse.

You're not going to get any message across to everyone, but they're operating as though educational theory hasn't moved since 1920. It's time they walked the walk of looking at the research - the research on effective communication.

I've done tertiary teaching, still do from time to time, and I know that communicating a message is some blend of art and science. A bit of theatre, too.

I can certainly agree that the messaging about various aspects of the pandemic has been --across the board-- worse than poor. Dan's determination to be the ever-present face of the Victorian experience is something which always concerned me, but I recognise that he felt he was filling a void, and he ended up focusing so much more on what must be done rather than more carefully explaining why it had to be done.

In emergency circumstances, maybe that was all he could do.

To my mind, the failure of the federal government to provide a systematic, creative and flexible program of communication has been especially egregious. While the States have sought to respond to the situation on the ground as best as they can, there has been remarkably little advice or guidance about the nature of the threat, how Australia might be impacted, what we need to protect, and how the wellbeing of everyone depends upon the commitment of individuals.

Sceptics have been allowed to peddle nonsense, States have been left to defend their own efforts to protect the community, and all the while the Commonwealth government wavered with Astra Zeneca and told everyone that mass vaccination wasn't a race.

Who knows how history will view Andrews, but Scott Morrison will be condemned as the man who wasn't there.

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Having said all that, we're hardly in a position to give up. The imperative remains the same, no matter the message or its delivery.

But I can't say that I know what you mean by 'effective communication'. I'm sure that there are plenty of people out there who aren't anti-vaccination, but are simply unmotivated or complacent or somewhat stubborn. Those people can be bargained with.

Others are not for the turning. They're not waiting for a lesson; they think they know it all, that they know more than government, than science. How to discuss with these recalcitrant types?

The short and sad answer might be that we can't.

 

[ZEV]

Multi-modes, multi voices, multiple ways of appealing.

I don't think there has even be reasoning to those who don't get the initial reasoning. They've just been written off as beyond reasoning.

You look at the grandstanding from the relevant players about the protests and they're just trying to get pats on the back from people who already agree with them. You're not going to change anyone's mind by opening with "you're an idiot scumbag" I'm not talking about comments from people on social media, who are just venting their frustration, but those speaking from their positions need to temper that as they're just entrenching attitudes amongst those they need to convert.

I don't see any attempt to change minds or campaign a view at all. Hunt is the only one who I think makes an attempt.

You make a really rational strong point that I entirely agree with.

From someone with little experience in the field it seem's to be a marketers paradoxical nightmare, how to make a vaccine go viral?

 

[Antz]

I have no proof. I'm pretty sure if you can be bothered to look, the figures before the rally and after did not change due to the rally. The right wing media at the time called blm rallies as they saw fit.

My point being is that there is a time and place to express your beliefs and protest. It's just plain stupid to protest out on the streets in a middle of a statewide lockdown during a global pandemic, no matter what issue or cause including BLM.

 

[Kirby]

My point being is that there is a time and place to express your beliefs and protest. It's just plain stupid to protest out on the streets in a middle of a statewide lockdown during a global pandemic, no matter what issue or cause including BLM.

Victoria wasn’t in a statewide lockdown at the time of the BLM protests.

 

[sr36]

I've done tertiary teaching, still do from time to time, and I know that communicating a message is some blend of art and science. A bit of theatre, too.

I can certainly agree that the messaging about various aspects of the pandemic has been --across the board-- worse than poor. Dan's determination to be the ever-present face of the Victorian experience is something which always concerned me, but I recognise that he felt he was filling a void, and he ended up focusing so much more on what must be done rather than more carefully explaining why it had to be done.

In emergency circumstances, maybe that was all he could do.

To my mind, the failure of the federal government to provide a systematic, creative and flexible program of communication has been especially egregious. While the States have sought to respond to the situation on the ground as best as they can, there has been remarkably little advice or guidance about the nature of the threat, how Australia might be impacted, what we need to protect, and how the wellbeing of everyone depends upon the commitment of individuals.

Sceptics have been allowed to peddle nonsense, States have been left to defend their own efforts to protect the community, and all the while the Commonwealth government wavered with Astra Zeneca and told everyone that mass vaccination wasn't a race.

Who knows how history will view Andrews, but Scott Morrison will be condemned as the man who wasn't there.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Having said all that, we're hardly in a position to give up. The imperative remains the same, no matter the message or its delivery.

But I can't say that I know what you mean by 'effective communication'. I'm sure that there are plenty of people out there who aren't anti-vaccination, but are simply unmotivated or complacent or somewhat stubborn. Those people can be bargained with.

Others are not for the turning. They're not waiting for a lesson; they think they know it all, that they know more than government, than science. How to discuss with these recalcitrant types?

The short and sad answer might be that we can't.

By effective communication, I quite simply mean communication that serves its purpose. Dan was very good at giving clear direct messages, but a big part of his purpose was persuasion of attitudes, behaviours and beliefs. I dont think he did this at all. He simply preached to the converted and called the non-converted, idiots. And it's gone down hill since Dan.

If you're wavering, most people will side with those who tell them they are smart and know things others can't see, rather than the person calling them an idiot.

Basically there doesn't seem to be any genuine attempt to persuade people with logical concerns about the vaccine or lockdown (so logical that the entire western scientific world shared many of them when this first began) These speeches that have a very large element that is designed to persuade, just aren't effective attempts to persuade.

Obviously there are some, I'd say few, who began beyond persuasion, but that number has grown.

 

[Antz]

Victoria wasn’t in a statewide lockdown at the time of the BLM protests.

Refresh my memory, I thought there was a lockdown of some sort? I definitely remember there being strict rules in place.

 

[Kirby]

Refresh my memory, I thought there was a lockdown of some sort? I definitely remember there being strict rules in place.

There were some restrictions at that stage but we had come out of the first lockdown.

 

[Antz]

There were some restrictions at that stage but we had come out of the first lockdown.

Ok, they still broke the law and put lives at risk.

 

[ZEV]

Refresh my memory, I thought there was a lockdown of some sort? I definitely remember there being strict rules in place.

I don't think we called them lockdowns back then didn't we call them stage 3 and stage 4 restrictions?

 

[sr36]

There were some restrictions at that stage but we had come out of the first lockdown.

It seems years ago, as it was when Dan was more aligned with Gladys and wanted to manage covid in an open economy.

I remember reading that it was very controversial due to covid and organisers being arrested for some kind of breech?

 

[JB1975]

By effective communication, I quite simply mean communication that serves its purpose. Dan was very good at giving clear direct messages, but a big part of his purpose was persuasion of attitudes, behaviours and beliefs. I dont think he did this at all. He simply preached to the converted and called the non-converted, idiots. And it's gone down hill since Dan.

If you're wavering, most people will side with those who tell them they are smart and know things others can't see, rather than the person calling them an idiot.

Basically there doesn't seem to be any genuine attempt to persuade people with logical concerns about the vaccine or lockdown (so logical that the entire western scientific world shared many of them when this first began) These speeches that have a very large element that is designed to persuade, just aren't effective attempts to persuade.

Obviously there are some, I'd say few, who began beyond persuasion, but that number has grown.

Not to sound defensive, but I think that you're bringing too much emphasis on Dan's purported failings. The Sydney protests had a healthy turnout of around 5,000 people, compared to around 2,000 in Melbourne, which tells us nothing except that the problem is bigger than the messaging of the premiers.

Given the fact that politicians rank extraordinarily low in terms of perceived trustworthiness, they are probably not in the best position to deliver the most important information about the pandemic and its issues. This is compounded by the belief among many that the government is busily implementing a conspiracy of global proportions. Dan was never going to have much luck with that, or any other elected representative.

At the very least it has needed --and needs-- a devoted bureau to devise, craft and communicate the message, with the added hope that politicians won't undermine their work.

I agree that the numbers of difficult people has grown. Got no evidence for that one, just a vibe.

But the people wavering are not the most difficult issue. As I suggested above, they can be bargained and reasoned with. The challenge is those who feel like they've found the truth. In an age of splintered media and splintered realities, when seemingly rational people will go to their graves believing that Trump had the election stolen from him, the question of how to change the narrative is a perplexing one.

 

[sr36]

Not to sound defensive, but I think that you're bringing too much emphasis on Dan's purported failings. The Sydney protests had a healthy turnout of around 5,000 people, compared to around 2,000 in Melbourne, which tells us nothing except that the problem is bigger than the messaging of the premiers.

Given the fact that politicians rank extraordinarily low in terms of perceived trustworthiness, they are probably not in the best position to deliver the most important information about the pandemic and its issues. This is compounded by the belief among many that the government is busily implementing a conspiracy of global proportions. Dan was never going to have much luck with that, or any other elected representative.

At the very least it has needed --and needs-- a devoted bureau to devise, craft and communicate the message, with the added hope that politicians won't undermine their work.

I agree that the numbers of difficult people has grown. Got no evidence for that one, just a vibe.

But the people wavering are not the most difficult issue. As I suggested above, they can be bargained and reasoned with. The challenge is those who feel like they've found the truth. In an age of splintered media and splintered realities, when seemingly rational people will go to their graves believing that Trump had the election stolen from him, the question of how to change the narrative is a perplexing one.

I didnt mean to put the emphasis on Dan. Somehow one of nature's accountants is so unexplicably charismatic that he dominates thoughts.

Gladys has lost the plot and is sending out ridiculous mixed messages.

Scomo... *..doesn't even have the courage to recommend AZ in Sydney, clearly wants it but mincing around with "should consider". I actually disagree with you that history will judge him poorly, although it should. Being 4 months behind on vaccination will be a blip. He'll be judged on the bottom lines and Australias will be fabulous compared to most of the world. In many ways his weakness has helped protect Australia, as they have wanted the states to manage covid and be conservative with lockdown rather than locking down early and being conservative with the virus, which has led to disaster and longer lockdowns all around the world. Him being too weak a leader to pull the states in line has been great for the country.

 

[jathanas]

I didnt mean to put the emphasis on Dan. Somehow one of nature's accountants is so unexplicably charismatic that he dominates thoughts.

Gladys has lost the plot and is sending out ridiculous mixed messages.

Scomo... fu**..doesn't even have the courage to recommend AZ in Sydney, clearly wants it but mincing around with "should consider". I actually disagree with you that history will judge him poorly, although it should. Being 4 months behind on vaccination will be a blip. He'll be judged on the bottom lines and Australias will be fabulous compared to most of the world. In many ways his weakness has helped protect Australia, as they have wanted the states to manage covid and be conservative with lockdown rather than locking down early and being conservative with the virus, which has led to disaster and longer lockdowns all around the world. Him being too weak a leader to pull the states in line has been great for the country.

You can use Dan's daily media communication during the 2nd lockdown as a good example of finding a sh*t method of selling the message to those not converted and sticking with it. His grind them down method was combative at worst and not greatly illuminating at best.

To his credit that period is over and I think history will judge him on more than that awful episode in Victoria's history. His party has steered the ship well from that point onwards. We have seen that the NSW "gold standard" was bu**s**t; they're all over the shop. They don't have any magical ability to manage an outbreak any better than Victoria did.

ScoMo by comparison makes the obvious clear i.e. that at least Dan has conviction. I'm pretty sure I can guess what ScoMo stands for but his communication means I have to read between the lines. This country has needed leadership at this time and the feds have offered very little. They've done zilch to unite and solidify when the country was crying for someone to put their b**ls on the line and lead. At least Andrews did that.

For decades my vote has shifted from one major party to another. Neither will get my vote next election. I alone can't shift the balance of power but I want to support the party that will do the most for the environment and the planet my grandkids (if I'm ever lucky enough t have any) will have to live on. Plus, we've seen what these guys can do, time to give others a shot.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

Communication needs to target certain age groups and demographics. In England, across all age groups, 88% of people have had their first shot and 70% have had two. But fewer than 60% of people aged between 18 and 30 have received a single dose of the vaccine despite appointments being available to all. Less than 23% of younger people have had two doses, with the demographic clearly on course to have far less full protection than older groups by the end of the northern summer.

I would imagine the same age group, 18-30, would be the people mainly fuelling the demonstrations in this country, the age group least likely to adhere to restrictions. The British decision to throw the country open and allow the virus to run its course, at the same time demanding a vaccine passport for participation or entry to a lot of activities, is going to be interesting.

Communicating with the freedom folk will not be easy. I joined a Facebook group called 'Aussies for Open Borders' which is meant to be 'for like minded people who want to see Australia’s international and State borders open to allow them to visit relatives and friends overseas/ interstate and to be able to return without hotel quarantine obligations'.

In fact, the group is predominantly anti-vaxxer, freedom fighter folk. They are not so much interested in opening the borders as living their lives minus vaccines, lockdowns, masks and restrictions. Suggesting that their views and activities are going to actually keep borders closed rather than open earns me a group of angry and laughing emojis as well as a string of nasty replies telling me I am brainwashed etc. Most of the threads this last 2 weeks have been about the forthcoming demonstrations just held. Very little mention is ever made of an overseas relative or dual passport. The group has a lot of very active members who pump out thread after thread, so many of them that I feel like I have infiltrated the organisation as a spy rather than an active member. These people are never going to change their minds. They have an answer to everything or twist the facts to suit their own agenda.

Our potty-mouthed, 'dog returning to its vomit' deputy commissioner Cornelius said the large numbers at the Melbourne demonstration surprised the police. Behind the scenes, these freedom folk are well organised, are connected with like minded people around the globe and disseminate a lot of propaganda type material. They are totally dismissive of mainstream views. Good luck trying to talk sense into the heads of these people!

 

[jathanas]

Communication needs to target certain age groups and demographics. In England, across all age groups, 88% of people in England have had their first shot and 70% have had two. But fewer than 60% of people aged between 18 and 30 have received a single dose of the vaccine despite appointments being available to all. Less than 23% of younger people have had two doses, with the demographic clearly on course to have far less full protection than older groups by the end of the northern summer.

I would imagine the same age group, 18-30, would be the people mainly fuelling the demonstrations in this country, the age group least likely to adhere to restrictions. The British decision to throw the country open and allow the virus to run its course, at the same time demanding a vaccine passport for participation or entry to a lot of activities, is going to be interesting.

Communicating with the freedom folk will not be easy. I joined a Facebook group called 'Aussies for Open Borders' which is meant to be 'for like minded people who want to see Australia’s international and State borders open to allow them to visit relatives and friends overseas/ interstate and to be able to return without hotel quarantine obligations'.

In fact, the group is predominantly anti-vaxxer, freedom fighter folk. They are not so much interested in opening the borders as living their lives minus vaccines, lockdowns, masks and restrictions. Suggesting that their views and activities are going to actually keep borders closed rather than open earns me a group of angry and laughing emojis as well as a string of nasty replies telling me I am brainwashed etc. ****

Wow TGG you went very deep into that rabbit-hole!

 

[Chameleon75]

Communication needs to target certain age groups and demographics. In England, across all age groups, 88% of people in England have had their first shot and 70% have had two. But fewer than 60% of people aged between 18 and 30 have received a single dose of the vaccine despite appointments being available to all. Less than 23% of younger people have had two doses, with the demographic clearly on course to have far less full protection than older groups by the end of the northern summer.

I would imagine the same age group, 18-30, would be the people mainly fuelling the demonstrations in this country, the age group least likely to adhere to restrictions. The British decision to throw the country open and allow the virus to run its course, at the same time demanding a vaccine passport for participation or entry to a lot of activities, is going to be interesting.

Communicating with the freedom folk will not be easy. I joined a Facebook group called 'Aussies for Open Borders' which is meant to be 'for like minded people who want to see Australia’s international and State borders open to allow them to visit relatives and friends overseas/ interstate and to be able to return without hotel quarantine obligations'.

In fact, the group is predominantly anti-vaxxer, freedom fighter folk. They are not so much interested in opening the borders as living their lives minus vaccines, lockdowns, masks and restrictions. Suggesting that their views and activities are going to actually keep borders closed rather than open earns me a group of angry and laughing emojis as well as a string of nasty replies telling me I am brainwashed etc. Most of the threads this last 2 weeks have been about the forthcoming demonstrations just held. Very little mention is ever made of an overseas relative or dual passport. The group has a lot of very active members who pump out thread after thread, so many of them that I feel like I have infiltrated the organisation as a spy rather than an active member. These people are never going to change their minds. They have an answer to everything or twist the facts to suit their own agenda.

Our potty-mouthed, 'dog returning to its vomit' deputy commissioner Cornelius said the large numbers at the Melbourne demonstration surprised the police. Behind the scenes, these freedom folk are well organised, are connected with like minded people around the globe and disseminate a lot of propaganda type material. They are totally dismissive of mainstream views. Good luck trying to talk sense into the heads of these people!

I don’t think you can wait for those types to come around. Vaccinate everyone that wants it, make a legitimate effort to convince as many that are reluctant, but after that I don’t think there’s much choice but to let them take their chances with covid.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

I don’t think you can wait for those types to come around. Vaccinate everyone that wants it, make a legitimate effort to convince as many that are reluctant, but after that I don’t think there’s much choice but to let them take their chances with covid.

And at the same time, make people produce evidence they have been vaccinated for participation in anything involving crowds or transport. Once they are denied entry to pubs and night clubs, not allowed to board a plane or holiday in Phuket, some may decide to get the shot despite their abhorrence of it. I can't see it happening at state level though as I am sure I have heard Andrews and Sutton say that they would not wish for the vaccine to become an obligation for citizens. Perhaps the same 'basic rights beliefs' that influenced ALP thinking that led to outdoor breaks in hotel quarantine.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

I didnt mean to put the emphasis on Dan. Somehow one of nature's accountants is so unexplicably charismatic that he dominates thoughts.

Gladys has lost the plot and is sending out ridiculous mixed messages.

Scomo... fu**..doesn't even have the courage to recommend AZ in Sydney, clearly wants it but mincing around with "should consider". I actually disagree with you that history will judge him poorly, although it should. Being 4 months behind on vaccination will be a blip. He'll be judged on the bottom lines and Australias will be fabulous compared to most of the world. In many ways his weakness has helped protect Australia, as they have wanted the states to manage covid and be conservative with lockdown rather than locking down early and being conservative with the virus, which has led to disaster and longer lockdowns all around the world. Him being too weak a leader to pull the states in line has been great for the country.

I'd found Scomo relatively inoffensive till I realised he was just weak and vacillating. Much as I dislike Dan's manner and retain negative memories from last year, Scomo is the one who I will judge most poorly. I see where you are coming from but can't turn such a negative into the positive that you suggest may be viewed through a rear vision mirror.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

Not to sound defensive, but I think that you're bringing too much emphasis on Dan's purported failings. The Sydney protests had a healthy turnout of around 5,000 people, compared to around 2,000 in Melbourne, which tells us nothing except that the problem is bigger than the messaging of the premiers.

Given the fact that politicians rank extraordinarily low in terms of perceived trustworthiness, they are probably not in the best position to deliver the most important information about the pandemic and its issues. This is compounded by the belief among many that the government is busily implementing a conspiracy of global proportions. Dan was never going to have much luck with that, or any other elected representative.

At the very least it has needed --and needs-- a devoted bureau to devise, craft and communicate the message, with the added hope that politicians won't undermine their work.

I agree that the numbers of difficult people has grown. Got no evidence for that one, just a vibe.

But the people wavering are not the most difficult issue. As I suggested above, they can be bargained and reasoned with. The challenge is those who feel like they've found the truth. In an age of splintered media and splintered realities, when seemingly rational people will go to their graves believing that Trump had the election stolen from him, the question of how to change the narrative is a perplexing one.

The numbers for Sydney were 3500 and Melbourne 5000, so we had the bigger turnout.