Opinion The Shield and Ribbon: Updating the Sacred

sverik25

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#26
Agree to disagree on MC and AV.
Would have you prefered if they kept the club motto for AVFC?
Probably, although I'm not overly fussed it's gone. I also prefer the style of the old lion. I can see the strength of the new one in that the edges are sharper and the colours a bit bolder.
 

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Armoooo

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#28
Mate that logo is amazing, who is the poster we have on here that liaise with Finnis? get him onto it.

It is still the same logo but it is stronger, bolder, more modern and doesn't look like it was put together in MSPaint on Windows 95.

Make it happen!!!

Also think we should be making more use of that StK look as well, not as prominently because I feel it will probably age poorly, but it looks pretty slick for the time being.
 

SFgiant

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Thread starter #29
I get where you're coming from but the only one of those updates I actually like is the Blue Jays one. I preferred City and Villa's old logos, although some elements on the new Villa logo are cleaner, I'll give it that.
Also, you could probably use acf fiorentina'a logo update as an example too. They had one of the best updates recently.
From this:
IMG_0403.PNG

To this:

IMG_0402.PNG
 

stfan

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#30
I feel the opposite. I think the club is very conservative toward the shield, so much so that it has been disregarded and ignored as the norm for the past 100 years (probably).

.
As a bit of history the Shield, or rather Club Crest, came about as a "Badge of Courage" in 1933 that was then integrated onto the jumper afterwards and then as the Club Crest.

http://www.redwhiteandblack.com.au/2010/04/22/in-this-round-round-5/
St Kilda vs North Melbourne, Round 5, 1933
St Kilda 4.4, 7.10, 9.17, 13.19 (97)
North Melbourne 3.5, 6.10, 7.13, 11.17 (83)
Crowd: Est. 13,000 at Junction Oval, 2.10pm Saturday, May 27

Legend has it that the St Kilda crest – the club’s logo, and found on the left breast of the jumper – originated on this famous day in the history of the club.

Though Russell Holmesby, who co-authored the St Kilda history book The Point of it All, says there is earlier photographic evidence of the existence of the crest than this day, it was this superbly brave performance by the Saints that embedded the crest into the club’s history.

For it was emblazoned on a “Badge of Courage” ordered by the St Kilda committee, to be given to players who took part in the match. It created a noble meaning for the crest; a symbol that represented the courage and spirit of a club that had tasted little success.

The Saints finished with only 15 men on the field on this day; the St Kilda Football Club was winless and grounded by infighting at the time, and the Shinboners went out to inflict more pain on the club – both physically and morally – with fierce tackling that reached a head in the second quarter: St Kilda captain Clarrie Hindson had broken his fibula and champion forward Bill Mohr had two ribs broken before half-time.

At the long break the Saints led by a goal, but five players were receiving treatment in the rooms, with a number of players ginger from North’s toughness at the man.

In the third quarter, Jack Anderson was knocked unconscious, Bill Roberts felled twice and Roy Bence concussed by friendly fire and carried off.

Despite a melee in the centre of the ground in that term, the Saints extended their lead to 16 points. An early burst in the final term by the Saints yielded two goals, much to the crowd’s rapture. By game’s end two of the 15 Saints still on the ground were badly injured, with ruckman Matt Cave requiring stitches for a gash near his left eye, and Jack George having to prop himself up in the forward pocket after damaging his ankle.

When the siren sounded, the Saints had won by 14 points. The ecsatatic home crowd rushed onto the field and carried the St Kilda players from the ground.

The versatile Stuart King and George Chapman had filled the scoring hole left by the injured Mohr to guide the Saints home, kicking four and three goals respectively.

The crest has since been synonymous with the club and strengthened the tie between St Kilda and the “Saints” nickname – and probably enough to ward off the period in the 1940s where St Kilda were known as the Panthers.

It was also the basis for the “cross” jumper design worn as a pre-season, home, and then away jumper from 1996 until 2002, including the 1996 pre-season premiership, 1997 Grand Final and 1998 pre-season Final teams, as well as the training jumpers worn in 2009 and, more subtly, 2010.

Most importantly, the crest itself has appeared on every match-worn St Kilda jumper since.
 

SFgiant

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Thread starter #35

stfan

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#36
I've never seen this one before.
View attachment 378771
It looks very holy.
I wonder if this is the same song we sing nowadays.
That was 1935 and so no.

‘When the Saints go marching in’ was written by an unknown songwriter in 1965/66, when the Saints were moving from the Junction Oval to Moorabbin. There are only 14 words in this theme song. The original tune is an American gospel hymn. This song was famously recorded on May 13, 1938 by Louis Armstrong and his Orchestra.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...g/news-story/2704cf5f07f2f33d09d6c03e89d037ac

Give E'm a Cheer Saints

For the lyrics see: http://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-171927602/view?partId=nla.obj-171927838#page/n2/mode/1up
The lyrics actually include: To be the Premier team for ninteen thirty five.. So it may have be a one year only club song.
 

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majortinkle

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#37
That was 1935 and so no.

‘When the Saints go marching in’ was written by an unknown songwriter in 1965/66, when the Saints were moving from the Junction Oval to Moorabbin. There are only 14 words in this theme song. The original tune is an American gospel hymn. This song was famously recorded on May 13, 1938 by Louis Armstrong and his Orchestra.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...g/news-story/2704cf5f07f2f33d09d6c03e89d037ac

Give E'm a Cheer Saints

For the lyrics see: http://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-171927602/view?partId=nla.obj-171927838#page/n2/mode/1up
The lyrics actually include: To be the Premier team for ninteen thirty five.. So it may have be a one year only club song.
I really wanted to ask about the history of our song after finally hearing the by the seaside song that I understand predated When the Saints go Marching in.

That one seems to have been linked to junction oval, so do we know whether it covered all of the post war years or was there something before that. The earliest songs for other clubs seem to date from the mid-20s/30s. If this one was used in 1935 was by the seaside not used between the wars? Does anyone know?
 

SFgiant

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Thread starter #39
I thought I'd give you guys some reasoning for the choice of font for my logo update. I tried to go with a font that mimics the old train and tram signage as seen here;
2lsxh0p.jpg

6f7e8c9ab3299ffc1e8d02c2f440f0f0.jpg
\

Also of note with my logo is that the ribbon now 'fits' the shield, as it goes along with the curvature of the shield.
 

thequarry

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#40
Bump.

SFgiant loving your stuff.

The St Kilda sponsorship announcement with Reflex for the VFLW/AFLW team had the Southern Saints logo on it. Visually I think it looks like a natural progressions (of sorts) for the current club logo, even though it's playing on older-style elements. Really amplifies the cross motif and is much bolder. I think if we ever were able to bring back the larger-style logo on the jumper this would be a far more conducive design that the current one, but as far as I know the AFL is strict on how large official logos can be on the jumper (also depending on placement). Not sure if the club is testing a different design with a general update in mind.

southern saints logo copy.png
 

SFgiant

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Thread starter #41
Bump.

SFgiant loving your stuff.

The St Kilda sponsorship announcement with Reflex for the VFLW/AFLW team had the Southern Saints logo on it. Visually I think it looks like a natural progressions (of sorts) for the current club logo, even though it's playing on older-style elements. Really amplifies the cross motif and is much bolder. I think if we ever were able to bring back the larger-style logo on the jumper this would be a far more conducive design that the current one, but as far as I know the AFL is strict on how large official logos can be on the jumper (also depending on placement). Not sure if the club is testing a different design with a general update in mind.

View attachment 467692
Not a fan personally. I’ll come up with my own concept to add to my proposal soon, but it’s interesting to see that it has the same font as my concept..
 
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#42
Bump.

SFgiant loving your stuff.

The St Kilda sponsorship announcement with Reflex for the VFLW/AFLW team had the Southern Saints logo on it. Visually I think it looks like a natural progressions (of sorts) for the current club logo, even though it's playing on older-style elements. Really amplifies the cross motif and is much bolder. I think if we ever were able to bring back the larger-style logo on the jumper this would be a far more conducive design that the current one, but as far as I know the AFL is strict on how large official logos can be on the jumper (also depending on placement). Not sure if the club is testing a different design with a general update in mind.

View attachment 467692
Not really a fan at all, it looks a bit odd.

I really hope we don't go down the Melbourne route and start changing our logo considerably. Especially that it is always used on the jumper, I couldn't imagine a substantial change (other than bolding/sharpening lines).

Looking at the OP I still love it. There's a reason our current logo hasn't really dated like others. On the jumper since the 1930s really tells you something.

Every other club bar Essendon has changed their logo in recent memory.
 

SFgiant

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Thread starter #43
Having a closer look at it, there are a few things that cross my mind.
- The absence of a black border really clutters everything. I'd hate to see what a mess this causes on a white background.
- There is something really off about the ribbons and the cross. They look so awkward. It might be a whole range of factors but the cross seems too fat and the ribbons don't have a natural flow to them. It could be the weird choice of shield that causes this.
- Lastly, In think the 'Southern' Saints name is a bad choice. It's another case of it just feeling 'off' to me. I'd much rather they be called the St Kilda Angels. That way they could use the original strength through loyalty crest.
 

SFgiant

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An update on trying a Southern Saints logo.

The name is a killer. There's no way I could simply incorporate the name in to my shield and ribbon. I can't use S.S.F.C. for obvious reasons, and putting 'SAINTS' in the ribbon would look so out of place, I didn't even bother trying.
I think the best way to bolster the new brand is to simply show it next to the current (or my) shield. A la Atlanta Brave's Minor League affiliates. So what I'm saying is that the club brand and logo is so strong, that it becomes beneficial to simply associate the new team with such a historical (and downright sexy) mark.

Here's what I mean:
STK Southern.png

Here are also some different applications of the logo system. Note that the colours may look a bit off. The colours go weird on my Mac when I screenshot.
Screen Shot 2018-03-11 at 9.36.23 pm.png
 
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#45
One of these things is not like the other...
Looks like us, and possibly Sydney are the only ones whose logo is severely lacking!

Surely time to update to align with our homecoming


E88EC1ED-2C6E-478F-8454-CB422A8C81DA.png
 

Jack Stevens

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#46
One of these things is not like the other...
Looks like us, and possibly Sydney are the only ones whose logo is severely lacking!

Surely time to update to align with our homecoming


View attachment 473107
Yeah it's starting to become really obvious to me that we need a bit of a tidy up.

Carlton are a great example of an AFL club who have refreshed their classic logo, modernising it but maintaining all of its history.

The Saints logos around RSEA Park have dropped the thin black outline, which makes me think that the club realise it's a problem.

 

SFgiant

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Thread starter #47
Yeah it's starting to become really obvious to me that we need a bit of a tidy up.

Carlton are a great example of an AFL club who have refreshed their classic logo, modernising it but maintaining all of its history.

The Saints logos around RSEA Park have dropped the thin black outline, which makes me think that the club realise it's a problem.

The problem is, by removing the outline, you get a bunch of floating shapes with no cohesion when paired with a white background. It definitely works on a black background though.

Here's mine in a similar format to the Carlton one:
STK War.png
 

austinnn

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#48
Yeah it's starting to become really obvious to me that we need a bit of a tidy up.

Carlton are a great example of an AFL club who have refreshed their classic logo, modernising it but maintaining all of its history.

The Saints logos around RSEA Park have dropped the thin black outline, which makes me think that the club realise it's a problem.

My 2 Bob's worth, my honest view not meaning to offend:

Not a fan of SFGiant's proposal for these reasons:

Prefer the current rounder font used for ST. K. F. C. The proposed font is not as stylish looks a bit like a computer default font. Its too rectangular, too narrow, and the stroke is too thin. The only good point about the font is that it now matches the font in the ribbon, but I'd rather have a mismatch and more style.

The black outline really doesn't work for me. I agree with the theory on the original being thin but that isn't the solution. The club have got the right idea making a white outline as seen above but as SFGiant states, that won't work on a white background.

Other than that, it's fine. I like the reshaping of the ribbon. It's still better than a lot of versions.

I also don't necessarily agree that our logo stands out as outdated amongst the other 17, or that it's time for a change. A word of caution against making changes too linked to current fashions: they look out of date quickly! Look at a lot of the AFL logos from the 90s like Freo and Essendon.
 
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#49
My 2 Bob's worth, my honest view not meaning to offend:

Not a fan of SFGiant's proposal for these reasons:

Prefer the current rounder font used for ST KILDA. The proposed font is not as stylish looks a bit like a computer default font. Its too rectangular, too narrow, and the stroke is too thin. The only good point about the font is that it now matches the font in the ribbon, but I'd rather have a mismatch and more style.

The black outline really doesn't work for me. I agree with the theory on the original being thin but that isn't the solution. The club have got the right idea making a white outline as seen above but as SFGiant states, that won't work on a white background.

Other than that, it's fine. I like the reshaping of the ribbon. It's still better than a lot of versions.

I also don't necessarily agree that our logo stands out as outdated amongst the other 17, or that it's time for a change. A word of caution against making changes too linked to current fashions: they look out of date quickly! Look at a lot of the AFL logos from the 90s like Freo and Essendon.
I know exactly where you’re coming from re: change for change sake, but the current version looks like it was designed on Microsoft Paint, imo.

Time to bring forth an Illustrator CC version :p
 

austinnn

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#50
My favourite combination of Red white and black is white background, black design or text and one single highlight in red instead of black, similar to the original Fisherman's Friends packets. Can't go past that classic look in my opinion. I don't mind if there's less red represented than white and black because it packs so much more of a punch, and absolutely black on white background because white on black looks too tryhard and 90s.

For me, the font used in our crest is as iconic as the crest itself, I can't imagine changing it in anything more than a very subtle way. That K has to be vertically symmetrical in the middle, that C at the end has to be round, the stroke width is absolutely perfect like it is, it doesn't look out of date at all, it just. looks. timeless.

http://www.saints.com.au/video/2014-05-12/the-crest-strength-through-loyalty

this guy makes some pretty good points, and I agree that it doesn't work technically on a small scale or on a white background. It would look like dynamite on a green background!

http://bennewton.com.au/logo-review-st-kilda-saints/

Insterestingly, one of SFGiant's earlier desgins is more appealing, although the stroke width of the new font is still a bit too thin. (PS: Loved his version of the Pies and Crows logos though!)

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/modern-retro-club-logos.1049779/

And I probably agree with the 1st and 3rd points in the below post from this discussion, but I don't see a way to make it happen in an acceptable way. Any time I've seen the ST. K. F. C. replaced by St Kilda or even ST KILDA it just looks wrong.

  • It should say St Kilda instead of St K F C.
  • The motto should be in English, not Latin, and needs to be more legible.
  • The black cross needs to be beefed up.

I wonder how the whiners among the St Kilda faithful react to the fact that the proportions of the current crest do not reflect those of the 1966 patch well enough. That is my main gripe.

And as for Riccardo's argument, "we don't have the money for that" -- this is probably the most ridiculous thing I have ever read on these boards. The club is not only professional but is a member of the nation's elite league, with a turnover of millions. It would only cost a few grand.
But then again, I like that us and the Blues are the only 2 clubs to not have our names or nicknames on the logo. We don't need to because we're icons. Live like icons.
 
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