TV The Sopranos

mjhen3

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bassmanx

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Re: The Sopranos **Spoilers**

Cheers.

Certainly has generated a lot of discussion that ending. Whether you liked it or not (I liked it) you gotta hand it to Chase, he's a genius.
Vanity Fair magazine has a really good Sopranos story this month.
If you are a fan it is well worth a read.

It's really interesting how much Chase hates TV.

I can't help but think he was just giving the finger to TV in general.
Trying to get people to think rather than spoon feeding them an ending.
 

mjhen3

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Re: The Sopranos **Spoilers**

Vanity Fair magazine has a really good Sopranos story this month.
If you are a fan it is well worth a read.

It's really interesting how much Chase hates TV.

I can't help but think he was just giving the finger to TV in general.
Trying to get people to think rather than spoon feeding them an ending.
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070612/ENT03/706120324&imw=Y

Check out that article as well as the others linked on the side under 'Related Stories".

I think you're right. From what I can gather he wanted to leave it completely open and allow the viewer to be entertained (the last 2 mins was entertainment alright). He even says "I have no interest in explaining, defending, reinterpreting, or adding to what is there".

In 20 years time people will still be discussing what actually happened, to me a great ending to a superb show. I knew he would pull something from left field and he certainly has. Genius.
 

Keithy George

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Re: The Sopranos **Spoilers**

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070612/ENT03/706120324&imw=Y

Check out that article as well as the others linked on the side under 'Related Stories".

I think you're right. From what I can gather he wanted to leave it completely open and allow the viewer to be entertained (the last 2 mins was entertainment alright). He even says "I have no interest in explaining, defending, reinterpreting, or adding to what is there".

In 20 years time people will still be discussing what actually happened, to me a great ending to a superb show. I knew he would pull something from left field and he certainly has. Genius.
I've time to digest the ending and take in what Chase has said and I've come to the following conclusion.

Tony dies in the finale. Why?

Chase said his intention was not to tick people off, it was for entertainment. An ending intended to leave the viewer guessing would tick the viewer off big time. We watched this finale for closure, I think giving the audience 'the finger' as someone alluded to would be going against what Chase said. With that in mind, let's look at what is presented to us...

The penultimate episode goes out with Tony recalling Bobby's words, 'you probably dont even hear it, everything just goes black." Now I ask you, what is the point of re-hashing such a quote from the beginning of a series if it has no relevance? The relevance in the final episode being that the screen abruptly goes black, coincidence?

Second, the shady character sitting at the counter (theorists saying it was Nikki Leotardo) whether it is not is irrelevant. The fact is he looks suspiciously over at where Tony is sitting TWICE, whilst noone else in the cafe is looking over at Tony's booth. He then does the old restroom diversion a la Michael Corleone. In a series, that has been faithful to the symbolism of the Godfather, I ask you, coincidence?

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck......

I think you add the pieces of the puzzle that you are presented with together, and the ending does present itself. Tony is killed, the identity unknown, irrelevant. Just as the identity of Phil's killer in his perspective wouldve been unknown, irrelevant.

Any other explanation would be to ignore the hints that are given to the viewer, if Tony was not murdered despite those signs presented to us, then Chase has deliberately set out to tick us off, which he said he wouldnt do.


DISAGREE WITH THAT WHY DONT YA! :D:cool:
 

Gasometer

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Re: The Sopranos **Spoilers**

Yep. Dead.

And all the moaning about Silvio the past two days...aka "Tone didn't say goodbye"...it is all tied together, he was a sociopath-sentimental who justified his behaviour...he didnt get sentimental over Chris/Silvio/Junior/Paulie...anyone but himself.

The closest he came was with Meadow and Janice, perhaps the only resolutions in the finale. Carm was just as voliatile as up to season 1 and there was no resloution with AJ...he fought with these two the whole six seasons. He still couldnt resolve the Junior issue, he went there warning him off giving Janice the money. He couldnt go back to Melfi, told everyone it sucked and then started bleating to AJ's psych about his issues.

All the others Chase ignored and for the better and that was the pattern of the series; Janice whacked her man early on, Ralphy was barely tolerated for two seasons before getting diced and as for Adriana, well her murder was something else never resolved.

There was no GreenDay songs or happy flashback scenes or the audience cheering them on as the crew took a bow...the typical American audience wanted the typical American ending and are typically whining on about it all over the internet.

Gaso
 

svmac

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Re: The Sopranos **Spoilers**

I'm up to my 4th viewing of the last 2 eps and I am still unconvinced T is dead.

"You don't even hear it"? The bloke that said that line (Bobby) certainly heard it. Took 14 shots to take him down. Sil certainly heard it also.

The Nikki Leotardo line has been debunked and I am unconvinced the trucker is the brother of the dead trucker (will have to grab out my old DVD's to check) and I am pretty sure that the other guys no longer have any need to kill Tony as the contract has long passed.

I think the ending is only an ending for the viewers. The Sopranos continues - Carmela gets more stuff, because she likes stuff... AJ carries on like a tool, because he is one... Meadow finishes law school, makes a poultus of cash... T carries on being boss of NJ... And so on. We just don't see it any more.
 

mjhen3

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Re: The Sopranos **Spoilers**

Chase also said in one of those articles something along the lines of "It's all out there, if people want to put it all together it's there". What it is I'm not quite sure just yet.

I agree with Keithy's points (esp the flashback to Bobby). Two other things I think were there for a reason were: Ep 13 is called Members Only, potential killer wears Members Only Jacket. As well as where Tony enters the Diner and for a split second we see him looking at himself, remember the music doesn't break there at all. Those two definitely hold some significance IMO.

Those two blokes who made the Seven Minute Sopranos (posted earlier in this thread), I'd love to hear their take on it all. Even Chase had acknowledged them (said they were the only one's who truely understood the complexities of Billy Leotardo).
 

bassmanx

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Re: The Sopranos **Spoilers**

http://www.miamipoetryreview.com/2007/06/sopranos-fivetheories-seriesfinale130607.html
1.The Scorsese Theory
Since The Sopranos owes much to Martin Scorsese's Goodfellas (including appearances by Michael Imperioli among others) then maybe Sopranos crime godfather David Chase was tipping his hat to Scorsese in filming his own underwhelming, incomplete, borderline sucky ending. (A criticism Scorsese has often heard) In what seems like a feel-good family moment, Tony Soprano sits with Carmela and AJ for dinner at Holsten's, when Meadow eventually enters the restaurant after a bad parallel parking scare. "Don't Stop Believing" by Journey plays on the jukebox while several shady characters enter the restaurant possibly with murder on their minds. Tony raises his head and the screen cuts to black. Millions of viewers simultaneously shriek that of all times to malfunction, HBO has to do it now. The credits follow and people shriek a second time. The theory that the series finale simply sucked is currently the #1 theory among Sopranos fans.
2.The Tarantino Theory
Some Sopranos loyalists however, understand David Chase's warped sense of humor and appreciate that the ending - a purposely ambiguous fade out that was meant to F with our heads and keep The Sopranos story on our minds forever -- as very characteristic of the show's iconoclastic spirit. Some of the greatest directors in cinema enjoy messing with the audience's head and The Sopranos creative team, knowing full well that everyone (including the master of sass Tarantino) was watching, decided to have one last laugh at our expense. What do we expect from such greasy, unlikable villains, anyway?
3.The David Lynch Theory
In a word, paranoia. The ending, though filmed ambiguously, was nonetheless clearly symbolic of the paranoia that Tony Soprano felt every waking moment of the day, fearing his comeuppance and possibly even done in the presence of his (personal) family. There were numerous potential threats - the fellow who went to take a whiz (and presumably grab a planted gun, in tribute to Coppola's The Godfather) the pair of black dudes, and really, a whole roomful of some Italian and not so Italian looking guys who were clearly established by the camera as possible suspects. A good theory, however, one that was not filmed very well, since Tony Soprano seems oblivious to the crowd and appears to be enjoying himself. (Then again, by now surely he knows how to scout like a made guy)
4.The Alfred Hitchcock Theory
Cinema buffs, help me out. Who introduced the POV shot? Was it Hitchcock? In any event, another theory that is gaining supporters is the idea that Tony Soprano was indeed whacked and that we the viewer were treated to the same dying image as he experienced - namely, nothing. Fade to black. When somebody kills you from behind chances are you won't feel or see anything besides a disappointing, empty blackness. (Not like Tony was going to heaven, right?) This theory is supported by the foreshadowing we see earlier in the show when Tony tells Bobby that everything seems to go blank and silent when you are shot. Tony dying without seeing the face of his killer is somewhat cruel - but maybe just what he deserved?
5.The Woody Allen Theory
4Then again, maybe David Chase started to feel a bit neurotic at all this attention, knowing that the media was savoring the chance to report/criticize the effectiveness of The Sopranos swan song. (After all, they have to leave Paris Hilton alone at least once a week) Knowing that no filmed ending could ever live up to fans' expectations, he decided to do a cop out, and actually let us fill in the blanks. What better way to satisfy the critics than to let them write their own perfect fairy tale ending? Chase hinted at the possibility of a future movie to come, and also at the possibility of no movie to come. If Twin Peaks has taught us anything it's that a series creator should know when to let a good idea die. Or get whacked, so to speak.
Take your pick...
 

Total_Juddshanks

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Re: The Sopranos **Spoilers**

There was no GreenDay songs or happy flashback scenes or the audience cheering them on as the crew took a bow...the typical American audience wanted the typical American ending and are typically whining on about it all over the internet.
True that, its revealing the number of fans who have flipped out because it didn't end with, I don't know, a ridiculously overplayed one on one shootout between Tony and Phil in the rubble of a terrorist bombed new york.

I guess its a bit elitist, but some people liked the Sopranos because it was innovative, dealt with its characters intelligently, was shot brilliantly and provided a fascinating insight into a bizarre life.

Then there are a lot of people who liked the Sopranos because it had gangster with guns who shot people, hung out in clubs with strippers, and had drug use, gore and plenty of gratuitous violence.

The latter category of people are pissed off no end, and I'm sorry to hear that, but basically Chase had a choice of upsetting either the smart audience by contriving a tritely dramatic ending, or upsetting the stupidos by having an ambigous, intelligent ending which resolved the underlying themes even if it didn't spoon feed the audience plot resolution.

This might be wisdom after the fact, but frankly, after the way the last 6 seasons have unfolded, if you were expecting the Sopranos to tie up loose ends, have you actually been watching it?

IMO, upon repeat viewing, the Sopranos has the best ending of any hit series I can think of. Compare it, for example, to the X Files finale or the Seinfeld Finale.

It just works, it makes you 'get' the characters and the whole series way better, and it makes me want to go back to season 1 and watch the whole thing from start to finish. By those standards, its a sensational resolution.
 

Macca19

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Re: The Sopranos **Spoilers**

No matter what road they took, a percentage of people were always going to be pissed off. Shootout/T dies was too predictable, happy ever after would have been too soppy. I think it was a good ending.

The pieces do seem to fit regarding Tony getting shot at the end. Members Only guy looking over twice, then walking over to the toilet. Its a lot of attention on that guy for him not to play any part in the ending. However, maybe its meant to look that way to decieve the audience. I think if we had have seen Meadow walk in then it went blank then it would definately show that he got killed.

It does leave it up to interpretation and its something which people will debate for some time. That in my books is a good ending.
 

Keithy George

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Re: The Sopranos **Spoilers**

No matter what road they took, a percentage of people were always going to be pissed off. Shootout/T dies was too predictable, happy ever after would have been too soppy. I think it was a good ending.

The pieces do seem to fit regarding Tony getting shot at the end. Members Only guy looking over twice, then walking over to the toilet. Its a lot of attention on that guy for him not to play any part in the ending. However, maybe its meant to look that way to decieve the audience. I think if we had have seen Meadow walk in then it went blank then it would definately show that he got killed.

It does leave it up to interpretation and its something which people will debate for some time. That in my books is a good ending.
Yep. I think that wouldnt have left too much ambiguity. I admit, I was right shitted off at the edning first time I saw it, like everyone else in the world I was cursing the TV, and then cursed some more when the credits rolled and I realised THAT was the end. However, I have warmed to the final scene in particular and am intrigued by it.

I just think given what we are shown, the BEST explanation is that Tony was shot. What does annoy me is how Chase has (deliberately probably) given the conspiracy theorists a field day with some of the lookalikes in the cafe. eg. Truckers brother who was killed by Chris, black guys hired out by Tony's mother in the first series to kill him, the woman who looked a lot like (and I have not checked closely) Janice. I think it was the guy at the counter. Someone on the Net has conveniently tried to tie up the ending by saying that counter guy is Nikki Leotardo despite the fact he was not credited as such and was not the same person at that played by Nikki in Members Only episode.

Bloody hell, its like the JFK conspiracy! And like the JFK conspiracy, there too many people at the scene to definitively point the finger at one person. The simplest explanation is usually the best one, the guy at the counter did it, his identity is irrelevant.
 

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Gasometer

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Re: The Sopranos **Spoilers**

The finale is also typical of the season finale's of I think 3 and 5 where the proverbial seems likely to hit the fan but it fizzes out. I think 3 it looks like its all heading south and they finish up at a family function unresolved and 5 is where John Sacks and Tony get chased thru the snow only to have Sacks arrested and Tony escape.

And what about Pussy? I remember the big controversy over his demise when it happened...that they would whack him out at sea.

In other words, we were led to believe that something would happen only to be either let down with anticlimax or shocked with the brutality.

Gaso
 

Gasometer

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Re: The Sopranos **Spoilers**

...oh and did anyone hear Peter Ford (Celebrity know it all) on 3AW this morning tell us that the producers wanted that ending so a movie could be made, "it certainly wouldn't have been the writers decision." :rolleyes:

Gaso
 

LeonMcS

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Re: The Sopranos **Spoilers**

Any talk of a future movie seems destined to be set in the past, possibly involving Tonys father and his crews era. Amazing finish, was incredibly traumatised originally by the sudden cut to black, cue swearing and gnashing of teeth as I chided myself for not reading the torrent comments then dumbstruck silence as the credits appeared...'Thats it? Thats it?'

But, like some others here, after letting it digest, I think Chase has pulled off the impossible. No other scenario would have had the same impact. We'll still be talking about this in twenty years.

The last four minutes, the restaurant scene was easily the most excrutiatingly suspense filled tense moments in viewing history. I was counting the clock down, waiting for the bang when, well we all know the rest. The Bobby flashback fills the 'Tony got whacked' scenario, but as I read somewhere else, I prefer to think it was us, the viewer who got whacked. Simply put, our time was up. Fuggedaboutit, all over.

Really hope thats all their is, their is nothing more to add. Now to get back the first four seasons from my mate so I can experience it again.

Some great posts here on this, wish I'd remembered to visit here sooner.
 

JoondalupJ

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The way the show is shown on TV here is hard to follow...what series? are they in order? For not too much cash, got the 1st 6 series on dvd. Working through the episodes one by one. Just finished Ser2. It has to be the only way of doing it.
It is the only way of watching this sereis . Plus you have to listen and consentrate as well. Go from 1 to 6 .I am a fanatic of this program
it is the best thing I have ever seen in my life on TV or movies.
I have seen all the series up to the first half of series 6 and am waiting for the finish which I beleive may leave room for a "FINISH OFF COMPLETELY
MOVIE".I have watched all my tapes and DVD's twice and have just started watching sereis 1 again for the 3rd time and I am getting things AGAIN that I missed the first two times. This is classic extremely high quality drama and its not shoot em up mafia stuff ,this is gritty down to earth stuff that really shows the world top and bottom of these gangsters and of a society that actually exists and the way "their way of life" is almost normal to them when they go home to the wife and kids.The show is about everything in life .
You are embarking on a fantastic journey of entertainment and information
YOU WILL LOVE EVERY SECOND OF IT!
 

Guido

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Re: The Sopranos **Spoilers**

The simplest explanation is usually the best one, the guy at the counter did it, his identity is irrelevant.
I'm thinking that they may not have even shown the killer.

When they pan to the black guys, the door opens behind them and we don't see who comes in - the door chimes were less obvious, and for some reason Tony didn't take any notice at all (as he did every other time someone entered.)

And that last second we see him, he's looking ever so slightly to his right - as if looking at someone in the aisle - rather than straight ahead (or even slightly to the left) as he did the other times the door opened.

And that last look on Tony's face ... I reckon he saw the bloke, and he knew what was coming.
 

Total_Juddshanks

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Re: The Sopranos **Spoilers**

And that last look on Tony's face ... I reckon he saw the bloke, and he knew what was coming.
Yep true.. the last two or three frames show the beginning of a recognition/surprise/oh shit look on Tony's face, and his left arm reaches down below the table, as if he was going for his gun.

Given that the director has just savagely cut a longer shot (ie, its not like James Gandolfini was told to act 'something' for a split second, they would have told him to act surprised/menaced or whatever, and then cut most of the shot), I reckon we see just the split second beginning of Tony reacting to a threat.

Bizarro theory time, assuming it wasn't some random who had been stalking Tony all episode, the following people knew Tony was going to be in the diner

-Carmela
-AJ
-Meadow
-AJ's Girlfriend (she was there when Carmela tells him)

Alternatively, prior to going there, Tony stopped by and saw Junior, was he tailed from there?

Logically, one of those people must have either been in on the hit, or inadvertently told someone who was. I could see AJ's gf getting leant on by Paulie or something, but perhaps the craziest theory- was it AJ who shot Tony? He's been all over the place for most of the season, he's emotionally erratic, he's previously tried to knife Junior, and his demeanour at the diner was quite odd.
 

Black JuJu

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Re: The Sopranos **Spoilers**

You can pour over tiny details and bang your head against the screen until it bleeds but that ending simply leaves the viewer to believe what they like. It's frustratingly anti climatic at first but ultimately a cool ending that makes you think.

If nothing else it might stop the creators of 'Lost' pulling the same shit on us in a couple of years time! ;)
 

Macca19

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Re: The Sopranos **Spoilers**

That article does raise some interesting points about what happens in the background. Cant say I noticed much of that stuff. That scene does look like the last supper (i think i mentioned earlier that I didn’t get the significance of that scene). It is also interesting that the door opens twice more but no chimes go off. Maybe the killer wasn’t MOG but someone that entered after the black guys.

When the trucker comes in, you see him put his hand almost under teh table, like hes getting ready to reach for a gun. The last scene is almost identical so maybe the killer is actually in front of him. Or maybe not.

I still think MOG has too much to do with it for it not to be him. I think the major point is when he walks to the toilet, you can see that he has the perfect line of sight to shoot Tony with the bathroom door open.

It may not be an original ending, but its the perfect ending for the show. Perfect.
 

Keithy George

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Re: The Sopranos **Spoilers**

Thats an interesting analysis, certainly some validity there I think. The last supper, the orange tiger behind Tony (Wow, that cant be coincidence!:eek:) the eating of the onion rings similar to the taking of communion, 'best in the state' reference to Sollozzo in the Godfather. I agree with Macca 19, MOG killed him.

An interesting story developing from the finale, is that viewers in the East Coast of US saw a "meadow ending" that is, the concluding scene of the series was a shot of Meadow about to enter the cafe, which would a different spin on things entirely. Everyone esle got the Tony ending.
 

Black JuJu

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Re: The Sopranos **Spoilers**

I think what some people are over looking is the simple fact of 'Who would want to whack him?'

You can point to shady looking characters (could easily be red herrings to build up the tension) but who would be behind the hit?

He'd made peace with NY, who had agreed to back off and that Phil had to go.
Phil was dead.
There was no real unrest amongst his own men, all the high ranking guys with the exception of Paulie are dead or near dead, and Paulie even resisted a promotion (only to be talked around do to classic Paulie jealously and insecurity, his face was classic when Tony said he'd give it to Patsi instead!)
The FBI don't do 'hits' in family restaurants.
Carlo had flipped but would need Tony alive for his sons plea bargain to be successful.

So who was going to do it?

and don't give me crap about black car jackers, incorrectly identified Leotardo family members and truckers brothers.
 

PREDAT0R

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Re: The Sopranos **Spoilers**

This is about the only TV series in existence that is actually as good as everyone says it is.

Have nearly finished watching season one on DVD, quality.:thumbsu:
You lucky lucky bastard.

6 more seasons to go for you. It's all over for me.

 

Macca19

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Re: The Sopranos **Spoilers**

So who was going to do it?

and don't give me crap about black car jackers, incorrectly identified Leotardo family members and truckers brothers.
The point you raise is very valid.

Im not sure about MOG being a Leotardo, but on face value, all signs point to T dying and MOG being the killer. The constant look overs, the bathroom shot with the direct line of sight, the Members Only jacket, the 'everything goes black'. Thats on face value. The only thing on face value saying that T is still alive, is that the scene ends at 'Dont Stop' in the song.

As you said, it could all have been a front to trick people into thinking that way, but i dunno, theres too many coincidences.
 

Keithy George

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Re: The Sopranos **Spoilers**

I think what some people are over looking is the simple fact of 'Who would want to whack him?'

You can point to shady looking characters (could easily be red herrings to build up the tension) but who would be behind the hit?

He'd made peace with NY, who had agreed to back off and that Phil had to go.
Phil was dead.
There was no real unrest amongst his own men, all the high ranking guys with the exception of Paulie are dead or near dead, and Paulie even resisted a promotion (only to be talked around do to classic Paulie jealously and insecurity, his face was classic when Tony said he'd give it to Patsi instead!)
The FBI don't do 'hits' in family restaurants.
Carlo had flipped but would need Tony alive for his sons plea bargain to be successful.

So who was going to do it?

and don't give me crap about black car jackers, incorrectly identified Leotardo family members and truckers brothers.
Isn't that usually the way though? When you least expect it? BANG!? Lots of characters in this series have been murdered and they have been none the wiser as to what is going on behind there backs. I agree that on the surface noone has a reason to kill Tony, but I dont think that fact alone is significant enough to suggest he wasn't killed
 
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