The state of the Giants and Suns

Tasmanian saint

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With the Suns being in the comp it allows channel7 in Qld, to put every Lions and Suns game on free to air TV. Plus a Friday night game, Thursday night game and 1 other game each week.

The broadcast revenue equates to @ $23 odd million per club and the AFL hand back $23 million to the Suns, as the largest handout, going on a sliding scale to WC who get @ $11 million (they're the wealthiest, income of $83 million last year) The average is $15 million.

So IMO, on the facts I can find on the internet the broadcast revenue covers the cost of the Suns and the other clubs that need a hand.

The rest of the revenue gets spent on things like buying Marvel a couple of years ago and also doing up Docklands area.
a large percentage of the purchase of marvel stadium was done buy the ten ant clubs st kilda bulldogs who had atrocious stadium deals for well over a decade you really need to get your facts straight on this point mate
 

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Tasmanian saint

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As to what the Gold Coast is like as a city, a population and a place to live, yes. Otherwise your opinion is about as useful and informed as that of a camel herder from a remote Egyptian village.


How many clubs from all sports have been successful on-field on the Gold Coast? Every club gets bigger attendances when they're doing well and poorer attendances when they're struggling on the field, including your own mob. I don't need to read your article, I know that the Gold Coast has never had a winner to back in the first place, except in motor racing, and the Gold Coast 600 is very well supported.
The super cars are well supported every where they go not just The Gold Coast didn’t the Indy cars stop going there though as the race was losing heaps of money through lack of support!
 

Kappa

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So no one else is allowed to comment unless they live in Queensland like you which automatically makes them experts on the matter certainly not biased are you ?? I also lived on the Gold Coast and North Queensland for 7 years what I find most worrisome for the suns is the large amount of people like you that actually believe more draft picks are the answer 😂 there are a lot of things the afl could do that would actually help a significantly larger salary cap pay to have there reserves play in the vfl instead of neafl more development coaches these are things that would drastically help them long term but people like you think a draft pick will magically turn them around I question your knowledge of the game with some of the comments you make !
GWS Sydney and Brisbane all play in the neafl and are are doing pretty well...
 

Tasmanian saint

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GWS Sydney and Brisbane all play in the neafl and are are doing pretty well...
Have you ever watched a neafl game ?the league is an absolute joke suburban level comps in Melbourne would be better standard when the neafl top team can beat the second placed team buy 140 points that tells you how poor it is !
 

Kappa

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Have you ever watched a neafl game ?the league is an absolute joke suburban level comps in Melbourne would be better standard when the neafl top team can beat the second placed team buy 140 points that tells you how poor it is !
And? It doesn't seem to impact GWS Brisbane or Sydney, all of them have tasted top 4 success while playing in the neafl.
 

werdna78

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a large percentage of the purchase of marvel stadium was done buy the ten ant clubs st kilda bulldogs who had atrocious stadium deals for well over a decade you really need to get your facts straight on this point mate
Where did said clubs get the money from? As they are not rolling in cash. The money for Marvel came from the AFL. The AFL bought Marvel, so they then could change the tenant agreements with the clubs who were getting screwed.

Update: 2017 AFL Financial Report, shows the AFL took out a $200 million dollar loan to pay for Marvel, not the clubs. It is under Total non-current liabilites on page 90. Facts are right.
 
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Blackas87

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Where did said clubs get the money from? As they are not rolling in cash. The money for Marvel came from the AFL. The AFL bought Marvel, so they then could change the tenant agreements with the clubs who were getting screwed.
You realise there was always an agreement that the AFL were to buy the Docklands stadium in 2025 for a $1. That was after the original owners had paid the debt off and made a profit. The debt was paid off by the clubs playing at the stadium with bad stadium deals. The AFL bought it early but not at the full price the stadium is worth.
 

werdna78

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You realise there was always an agreement that the AFL were to buy the Docklands stadium in 2025 for a $1. That was after the original owners had paid the debt off and made a profit. The debt was paid off by the clubs playing at the stadium with bad stadium deals. The AFL bought it early but not at the full price the stadium is worth.
Yep, AFL by default. The AFL has been distributing money to clubs for years, that's its function. Since 2005 they have handed out over 2.5 billion dollars to the clubs. With Bulldogs receiving $172 million, Saints $171, North $161 million, Brisbane $159 million, Melbourne $154 million and Carlton $143 million.
 

Blackas87

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Yep, AFL by default. The AFL has been distributing money to clubs for years, that's its function. Since 2005 they have handed out over 2.5 billion dollars to the clubs. With Bulldogs receiving $172 million, Saints $171, North $161 million, Brisbane $159 million, Melbourne $154 million and Carlton $143 million.
All leagues around the world distribute money to the clubs

The clubs are the ones that generate the money for the AFL, the larger clubs generate the most money but the AFL hands it out to the smaller ones to make the league competitive.

It’s the opposite in the England. Man united and Liverpool generate the most money for the premier league, Man U and Liverpool got the largest share from the league distribution.

The Docklands stadium under agreement with the AFL and the owners was for the stadium to be paid off by 2025 and the the AFL to buy it cheaply. for that to happen the AFL forced North, St Kilda and the Bulldogs to play there with bad stadium deals. The money those clubs should of been making themselves through ticket sales, was paying off the debt of building the stadium, that the AFL bought cheaply.
 
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werdna78

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All leagues around the world distribute money to the clubs

The clubs are the ones that generate the money for the AFL, the larger clubs generate the most money but the AFL hands it out to the smaller ones to make the league competitive.

It’s the opposite in the England. Man united and Liverpool generate the most money for the premier league, Man U and Liverpool got the largest share from the league distribution.

The Docklands stadium under agreement with the AFL and the owners was for the stadium to be paid off by 2025 and the the AFL to buy it cheaply. for that to happen the AFL forced North, St Kilda and the Bulldogs to play there with bad stadium deals. The money those clubs should of been making themselves through ticket sales, was paying off the debt of building the stadium, that AFL bought cheaply.
The clubs don't pay the AFL, the AFL distributes the TV revenue to the clubs. The clubs keep any revenue they make from ticket sales (except for finals) merchandise, sponsorship, pokies etc. And then the AFL gives them a handout, with the wealthier clubs receiving less than the poor clubs.

The clubs generate money for the AFL, by being available to play games. The more teams the more games, the more revenue.
 

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Blackas87

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The clubs don't pay the AFL, the AFL distributes the TV revenue to the clubs. The clubs keep any revenue they make from ticket sales (except for finals) merchandise, sponsorship, pokies etc. And then the AFL gives them a handout, with the wealthier clubs receiving less than the poor clubs.

The clubs generate money for the AFL, by being available to play games. The more teams the more games, the more revenue.
I never said the clubs pay the league.

If the clubs jumped to another league, the AFL would not be able to get the tv deal. They can only get the tv deal because of the clubs.

The highest rating clubs are ones that the tv stations want on prime time slots, those clubs are the ones generating tv revenue.

If the top 10 rating clubs left for a rival league, do you think the AFL would be able to get a TV deal to fund the Suns?
 

werdna78

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I never said the clubs pay the league.

If the clubs jumped to another league, the AFL would not be able to get the tv deal. They can only get the tv deal because of the clubs.

The highest rating clubs are ones that the tv stations want on prime time slots, those clubs are the ones generating tv revenue.

If the top 10 rating clubs left for a rival league, do you think the AFL would be able to get a TV deal to fund the Suns?
Sorry, I thought we were talking about the current state of the Suns and Giants. Not a hypothetical break away competition.

The clubs are the ones that generate the money for the AFL, the larger clubs generate the most money but the AFL hands it out to the smaller ones to make the league competitive.
This is where I got confused, you didn't specify TV revenue. But I agree the larger clubs generate more money for the AFL.
 

Tasmanian saint

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The clubs don't pay the AFL, the AFL distributes the TV revenue to the clubs. The clubs keep any revenue they make from ticket sales (except for finals) merchandise, sponsorship, pokies etc. And then the AFL gives them a handout, with the wealthier clubs receiving less than the poor clubs.

The clubs generate money for the AFL, by being available to play games. The more teams the more games, the more revenue.
[/QUOTE]
Is it that hard to understand You just don’t get it do you mate 😂
 

Blackas87

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Sorry, I thought we were talking about the current state of the Suns and Giants. Not a hypothetical break away competition.


This is where I got confused, you didn't specify TV revenue. But I agree the larger clubs generate more money for the AFL.
we are, and you stated tv revenue which is part of the convo I’m following on from.

As you stated the TV revenue covers the Suns. I’m saying clubs that bring high ratings are covering the Suns. Adding the Suns to the league wouldn’t get the league an extra $23million per year on the TV deal.


With the Suns being in the comp it allows channel7 in Qld, to put every Lions and Suns game on free to air TV. Plus a Friday night game, Thursday night game and 1 other game each week.

The broadcast revenue equates to @ $23 odd million per club and the AFL hand back $23 million to the Suns, as the largest handout, going on a sliding scale to WC who get @ $11 million (they're the wealthiest, income of $83 million last year) The average is $15 million.

So IMO, on the facts I can find on the internet the broadcast revenue covers the cost of the Suns and the other clubs that need a hand.
 

jackenny

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Mate that’s like saying a guy that earns $1million dollars a year, spends $999000 has had $1000 profit. A guy earns $50000 spends $40000 has had a $10000 dollar profit. The guy that made a $10000 profit isn’t in the better financial position.

This is the revenue each club generated themselves before AFL handouts last year.

Collingwood $67million
Hawthorn $60million
West Coast $53million
Essendon $52million
Richmond $51million
Geelong $46million
Carlton $45million
Port Adelaide $44million
Adelaide $42million
Fremantle $38million
Sydney $37million
Melbourne $36million
Western Bulldogs $35million
Brisbane $32million
St Kilda $27million
North Melbourne $24million
GWS $16million
Gold Coast $15million

The Suns generate the least amount of money in the league through sponsorships memberships ect....

AFL handouts which the Suns receive 2nd most behind GWS

View attachment 739739

Revenue with AFL handouts, Suns still the least.
View attachment 739740

Suns make a $1.1 million profit after the AFL gives them $24 million. Which is fine, the AFL are investing in growing the game.
Do you mind referencing those numbers?

The link that I gave has the following revenues:

Revenue
  • West Coast – $82,265,015
  • Collingwood – $82,074,011
  • Richmond – $79,777,837
  • Hawthorn – $74,339,727
  • Geelong – $67,944,647
  • Essendon – $65,092,072
  • Carlton – $ 61,627,141
  • Port Adelaide – $59,000,643
  • Fremantle – $58,390,623
  • Adelaide – $ 56,060,913
  • Brisbane – $55,605,874
  • St Kilda – $53,864,218
  • Sydney – $54,084,840
  • Western Bulldogs – $51,576,289
  • Melbourne – $49,010,456
  • GWS – $43,453,413
  • Gold Coast – $40,042,853
  • North Melbourne – $39,618,239
It seems to me the numbers you're using are less up-to-date than mine, so making statements like 'revenue with AFL handouts, Suns still the least' should be called out as clearly untrue.

Also, this: "Mate that’s like saying a guy that earns $1million dollars a year, spends $999000 has had $1000 profit. A guy earns $50000 spends $40000 has had a $10000 dollar profit. The guy that made a $10000 profit isn’t in the better financial position."

No. Your analogy is ridiculous. The Gold Coast is earning a little over $40,000,000 in revenue. Collingwood near the very top is making a little over $80,000,000 in revenue. They have double the revenue, basically. Your example is $50,000 against $1,000,000, which is twenty times the difference. Any reasonable person would sooner rely on the actual numbers and not the ones you pulled from nowhere.

In any case, it's more like I am saying that Collingwood has a revenue of $82,074,011 and made $112,052 in profit, and the Gold Coast earned $40,042,853 in revenue and made $1,160,912 in profit. Collingwood is obviously a bigger club given that revenue, on top of a greater portfolio in assets, but the Gold Coast is clearly not a failure given that their revenue and profit margins are still in the same picture. It's nowhere near as great a difference as your "50k vs 1mil" example, which was just BS. Again, any reasonable person would sooner rely on the actual numbers and not the ones you pulled from nowhere.

I do appreciate the tacit support for growing the game at the end of your post. But I would appreciate it more if you don't make any more disingenuous arguments and don't try to spruik any more made-up numbers.
 
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Blackas87

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Do you mind referencing those numbers?

The link that I gave has the following revenues:

Revenue
  • West Coast – $82,265,015
  • Collingwood – $82,074,011
  • Richmond – $79,777,837
  • Hawthorn – $74,339,727
  • Geelong – $67,944,647
  • Essendon – $65,092,072
  • Carlton – $ 61,627,141
  • Port Adelaide – $59,000,643
  • Fremantle – $58,390,623
  • Adelaide – $ 56,060,913
  • Brisbane – $55,605,874
  • St Kilda – $53,864,218
  • Sydney – $54,084,840
  • Western Bulldogs – $51,576,289
  • Melbourne – $49,010,456
  • GWS – $43,453,413
  • Gold Coast – $40,042,853
  • North Melbourne – $39,618,239
It seems to me the numbers you're using are less up-to-date than mine, so making statements like 'revenue with AFL handouts, Suns still the least' should be called out as clearly untrue.

Also, this: "Mate that’s like saying a guy that earns $1million dollars a year, spends $999000 has had $1000 profit. A guy earns $50000 spends $40000 has had a $10000 dollar profit. The guy that made a $10000 profit isn’t in the better financial position."

No. Your analogy is ridiculous. The Gold Coast is earning a little over $40,000,000 in revenue. Collingwood near the very top is making a little over $80,000,000 in revenue. They have double the revenue, basically. Your example is $50,000 against $1,000,000, which is twenty times the difference. Any reasonable person would sooner rely on the actual numbers and not the ones you pulled from nowhere.

In any case, it's more like I am saying that Collingwood has a revenue of $82,074,011 and made $112,052 in profit, and the Gold Coast earned $40,042,853 in revenue and made $1,160,912 in profit. Collingwood is obviously a bigger club given that revenue, on top of a greater portfolio in assets, but the Gold Coast is clearly not a failure given that their revenue and profit margins are still in the same picture. It's nowhere near as great a difference as your "50k vs 1mil" example, which was just BS. Again, any reasonable person would sooner rely on the actual numbers and not the ones you pulled from nowhere.

I do appreciate the tacit support for growing the game at the end of your post. But I would appreciate it more if you don't make any more disingenuous arguments and don't try to spruik any more made-up numbers.
Sorry I think my numbers are from the previous year, I don’t just make them up as you’re suggesting.


The revenue in those counts the AFL distribution. The Suns revenue is $40million, but $24million of that is given by the AFL, meaning the Suns generate $16 million themselves.

Collingwood $82million with $10million given by the AFL meaning Collingwood generate $72million themselves.

It’s more like a $72million club vs a $16million.

Yes the Suns are using that $40million wisely and need to be efficient with it to run a profit.
 

werdna78

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we are, and you stated tv revenue which is part of the convo I’m following on from.

As you stated the TV revenue covers the Suns. I’m saying clubs that bring high ratings are covering the Suns. Adding the Suns to the league wouldn’t get the league an extra $23million per year on the TV deal.
That's true, I believe the AFL probably break even with the amount of TV revenue the Suns would bring in. It would also be the case for a couple of teams as well. Silver lining to having the Suns in the comp, at the moment though, is a guaranteed 4 points.

If the top 10 rating clubs left for a rival league, do you think the AFL would be able to get a TV deal to fund the Suns?
I think that's a discussion for another thread. Don't want to derail the thread.
 
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Blackas87

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That's true, I believe the AFL probably break even with the amount of TV revenue the Suns would bring in. It would also be the case for a couple of teams as well. Silver lining to having the Suns in the comp, at the moment though, is a guaranteed 4 points.



I think that's a discussion for another thread. Don't want to derail the thread.
Not sure they break even yet. The AFL stated these clubs are a 30 year investment into expanding the game. I think everyone needs to understand that first. These clubs aren’t supposed to huge financial successes yet.

Not sure they are a guaranteed 4 points, we only scraped across the line against them
 

jackenny

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Sorry I think my numbers are from the previous year, I don’t just make them up as you’re suggesting.
I am talking about the figures '$50,000 vs $1,000,000'. You made those figures up. It was a terrible analogy and I have no idea why you opened with that in your reply to me. That's where my main issue with your post lies, honestly. It deserved to be chastised.

I am sure you didn't make up the revenue and distribution figures, although I am just as sure and already pointed out that the figures you were using are less up-to-date than mine. It was a little ridiculous for you to be taking a didactic tone while using older figures in any case. It also came across like you were taking a dig at the Suns when you mentioned 'revenue with AFL handouts, Suns still the least' despite that clearly being wrong if you were reading from something more up-to-date.


The revenue in those counts the AFL distribution. The Suns revenue is $40million, but $24million of that is given by the AFL, meaning the Suns generate $16 million themselves.

Collingwood $82million with $10million given by the AFL meaning Collingwood generate $72million themselves.

It’s more like a $72million club vs a $16million.

Yes the Suns are using that $40million wisely and need to be efficient with it to run a profit.
That's more fair. The Gold Coast isn't as financially powerful as Collingwood. Not many clubs are in the AFL. I mostly rankle at those who say the Gold Coast is being run badly when that's simply untrue. It's being run well and turning over a solid profit. It's no West Coast, Collingwood, or Hawthorn, but it's clearly building itself into something sustainable off-field. Obviously the Suns being awful on-field is what causes so much bias against them and makes people think they're still being run by clowns. They're not. Hasn't been the case for years now. The tin sheds era is over and done with. I appreciate your post above where you say that it's a '30 year investment', because that's absolutely true. It's not going to be an overnight success, but there are signs that it's heading in the right direction (junior participation rates jumping up in Queensland and the Suns slowly building up assets to be able to sustain themselves).
 

Pippen94

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I am talking about the figures '$50,000 vs $1,000,000'. You made those figures up. It was a terrible analogy and I have no idea why you opened with that in your reply to me. That's where my main issue with your post lies, honestly. It deserved to be chastised.

I am sure you didn't make up the revenue and distribution figures, although I am just as sure and already pointed out that the figures you were using are less up-to-date than mine. It was a little ridiculous for you to be taking a didactic tone while using older figures in any case. It also came across like you were taking a dig at the Suns when you mentioned 'revenue with AFL handouts, Suns still the least' despite that clearly being wrong if you were reading from something more up-to-date.


That's more fair. The Gold Coast isn't as financially powerful as Collingwood. Not many clubs are in the AFL. I mostly rankle at those who say the Gold Coast is being run badly when that's simply untrue. It's being run well and turning over a solid profit. It's no West Coast, Collingwood, or Hawthorn, but it's clearly building itself into something sustainable off-field. Obviously the Suns being awful on-field is what causes so much bias against them and makes people think they're still being run by clowns. They're not. Hasn't been the case for years now. The tin sheds era is over and done with. I appreciate your post above where you say that it's a '30 year investment', because that's absolutely true. It's not going to be an overnight success, but there are signs that it's heading in the right direction (junior participation rates jumping up in Queensland and the Suns slowly building up assets to be able to sustain themselves).
Neither club will take ever! 30 year investment just means waste of money is prolonged.
 

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