Opinion The state of the Giants and Suns

Scotland

TheBrownDog
May 5, 2006
50,439
52,426
AFL Club
West Coast
Exactly last year WC won a flag with a huge help from PP, Richmond won a premiership because one of their best players was a PP and before that Hawthorn built an entire list on the back of bottoming out and getting PP’s.
We did?

We finished last with a record of 4-18 and got picks 4, 26, 29.

I guess Kennedy was effectively a PP traded in.
 

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HavUEvaSeenTheRain

Premiership Player
Apr 20, 2006
4,317
4,309
AFL Club
Carlton
Looking at it further every team but one to win a flag since 2005 have benefited from either father sons or PP’s both of which ruin the integrity of the draft. The only side who I think didn’t was Sydney in 2012 who had COLA.
If ever a side needs a leg up like every one of the past 14 or so premiership sides have had it is GC. I don’t think they should get pick 1 but pick 19 is totally acceptable and they should probably get one again next year.
 

Scotland

TheBrownDog
May 5, 2006
50,439
52,426
AFL Club
West Coast
The asking for picks system sucks and makes whoever is asking look desperate.

I reckon the Suns should look at downgrading early picks to get multiple cracks inside the top 10-15.
 

HavUEvaSeenTheRain

Premiership Player
Apr 20, 2006
4,317
4,309
AFL Club
Carlton
Pick 18.

If you remove PPs Melbourne and WC really miss out on picks 19 and 20.
That’s the whole point of PP it gives teams more chances of finding players. Take away the PP and it may have changed everything with regards to who you recruit and how you tried to build a list. Maybe Melbourne rated Shuey higher than Blease but the combo of Blease and Struass higher than Shuey and Swift.
Maybe if West Coast weren’t gifted that extra pick they think it’s too hard to rebuild through the draft and trade the pick for a run of the mill player.
 

Scotland

TheBrownDog
May 5, 2006
50,439
52,426
AFL Club
West Coast
That’s the whole point of PP it gives teams more chances of finding players. Take away the PP and it may have changed everything with regards to who you recruit and how you tried to build a list. Maybe Melbourne rated Shuey higher than Blease but the combo of Blease and Struass higher than Shuey and Swift.
Maybe if West Coast weren’t gifted that extra pick they think it’s too hard to rebuild through the draft and trade the pick for a run of the mill player.
I think it's clutching at straws. If the AFL simply gave out second round PPs no one would really care and Gold Coast wouldn't improve rapidly.
 

Johnny Bananas

Club Legend
Sep 10, 2010
1,804
2,057
A sugar refinery
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
How immature do you want to be? Every opinion that doesn't suit yours means someone is 'crying'? Grow up.

Yes they are very close, how tiresome that you felt the need to point it out and then followed it up with such an ignorant comment that it somehow means they won't walk from the Suns. If they can both walk to a Vic club in 2 years does that somehow not have the same pull as living in a place they potentially dont want to be in? They can still hang out. This whole myth that mates = never leaving is very media-esque of you but is a total folly.

Interesting that you attempt to put words in my mouth re: supposed Adelaide entitlement but you fail to see the common sense view- why should the goalposts be moved for every other club because one is failing so hard. You can try to dismiss the idea as 'crying' but you wouldn't be able to adequately explain how it ISN'T unfair.

Seriously if you are going to pretend to be an intellectual you need to have some substance.
You're a crack up, mate. Your post was a massive whinge about how Adelaide are treated unfairly if a priority pick is awarded, when every other club loses out from it too, except the club it's awarded to. Adelaide simply lucked into SOS making a foolish trade, they don't have some God-given right to a top two pick. The entitlement you display is staggering.

This isn't the first time a high priority pick would be awarded. Why should the goalposts be moved? Equalisation, and investment. Gold Coast have been failing for so long that the AFL has to do something about it or risk their investment collapsing, and they're not going to jeopardise their ability to compete with the NRL for eyeballs in Queensland. I really don't care if it's fair or not, it's business. The entire draft, salary cap and closed-entry league are not fair. The distribution of talent around the nation relative to where clubs are located isn't fair either. Suck it up and stop whinging.

I never said Rowell and Anderson would never leave, nor did I ever claim to be an "intellectual", interesting choice of words. Now who's putting words in people's mouths?
 

ferrisb

Brownlow Medallist
May 22, 2011
13,802
61,861
The Naughty Corner
AFL Club
Carlton
MFC are the foundation club that started the game. A sporting icon with a rich history of cultural significance that is embedded for all eternity.

There’s more chance of James Hird putting on the boots and playing for Essendon again then there is the Demons ever leaving this league.
Melbourne members did vote in favour of merging back in 1996... Not as immune as you think.

And that's coming from a supporter of a core VFL club with a rich history and twice as much success as Melbourne, yet facing an uphill battle to regain relevance...
 

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Rory Walkerfield

Norm Smith Medallist
Oct 6, 2012
8,314
14,439
AFL Club
Adelaide
So there are a clear top 2 in this years draft and GCS are saying give us both of them. After taking two of the top three last year.

And selfishly from an AFC perspective, we took the gamble of trading with CFC our 2019 1st for theirs and now the AFL would go and completely undermine the trading of future picks by slotting in gift picks (not prescribed compensation for free agents but give aways). What confidence does this give clubs to trade future picks again? I don’t trust the AFL but surely they wouldn’t be this dumb. I can understand if they gave GcS the 2020 pick #1 to keep or trade as there have been no 2020 trades yet.
 

Rory Walkerfield

Norm Smith Medallist
Oct 6, 2012
8,314
14,439
AFL Club
Adelaide
You're a crack up, mate. Your post was a massive whinge about how Adelaide are treated unfairly if a priority pick is awarded, when every other club loses out from it too, except the club it's awarded to. Adelaide simply lucked into SOS making a foolish trade, they don't have some God-given right to a top two pick. The entitlement you display is staggering.

This isn't the first time a high priority pick would be awarded. Why should the goalposts be moved? Equalisation, and investment. Gold Coast have been failing for so long that the AFL has to do something about it or risk their investment collapsing, and they're not going to jeopardise their ability to compete with the NRL for eyeballs in Queensland. I really don't care if it's fair or not, it's business. The entire draft, salary cap and closed-entry league are not fair. The distribution of talent around the nation relative to where clubs are located isn't fair either. Suck it up and stop whinging.

I never said Rowell and Anderson would never leave, nor did I ever claim to be an "intellectual", interesting choice of words. Now who's putting words in people's mouths?
The issue is that the AFL slotting in high end 2019 gift picks will fundamentally change the value of trades that have already happened in relation to 2019 picks. The AFl would be changing the value of transactions after the fact. Why shouldn’t Adelaide be compensated for a change in circumastances caused by a decision of the afl after the fact?
 

Tasmanian saint

Senior List
Apr 24, 2018
164
54
AFL Club
St Kilda
You're a crack up, mate. Your post was a massive whinge about how Adelaide are treated unfairly if a priority pick is awarded, when every other club loses out from it too, except the club it's awarded to. Adelaide simply lucked into SOS making a foolish trade, they don't have some God-given right to a top two pick. The entitlement you display is staggering.

This isn't the first time a high priority pick would be awarded. Why should the goalposts be moved? Equalisation, and investment. Gold Coast have been failing for so long that the AFL has to do something about it or risk their investment collapsing, and they're not going to jeopardise their ability to compete with the NRL for eyeballs in Queensland. I really don't care if it's fair or not, it's business. The entire draft, salary cap and closed-entry league are not fair. The distribution of talent around the nation relative to where clubs are located isn't fair either. Suck it up and stop whinging.

I never said Rowell and Anderson would never leave, nor did I ever claim to be an "intellectual", interesting choice of words. Now who's putting words in people's mouths?
The point you’re trying to make is completely wrong when the afl brought in future trading they pretty much put a end to being able to hand out early priority picks even if they did give them the picks it would make no difference the only thing that will help them is large salary cap concessions ! it might sound harsh but every one in the country could see a club on Gold Coast would be a disaster now it’s blowing up in the AFL faces all this after they said Tasmania wouldn’t be able to support there own team 😀
 

General Giant

Hall of Famer
Apr 12, 2012
31,200
22,585
AFL Club
GWS
You mate are a tosser, tell us the "three times" we died but were apparently miraculously "saved", by who? White Knights? No matter how much you detest it, 90% of AFL fans see your club as a plastic franchise.
Why because I called out your mates ridiculous rants?
Went bankrupt multiple times in Sydney and was saved by white knights and the AFL.

90% seems a bit high but it's better than how they see you badwagoning flogs.
 

Johnny Bananas

Club Legend
Sep 10, 2010
1,804
2,057
A sugar refinery
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
The issue is that the AFL slotting in high end 2019 gift picks will fundamentally change the value of trades that have already happened in relation to 2019 picks. The AFl would be changing the value of transactions after the fact. Why shouldn’t Adelaide be compensated for a change in circumastances caused by a decision of the afl after the fact?
Except this has happened multiple times before. Richmond and Adelaide both once traded away pick 4, and it later became pick 2 due to Carlton being stripped of their picks. They weren't compensated for trading away a pick where the value changed after the fact. Nor have teams been compensated when they received a future second-round or third-round pick and priority picks pushed them back. Nor have teams been compensated when they received any sort of future pick and a FA compensation pick pushed their picks back. I didn't see any campaign for compensation for Adelaide last year when they had Melbourne's first pick from the Jake Lever trade, and then Gold Coast got pick 3 in FA compensation. A precedent has been set and followed many times over on this issue, and it isn't in favour of compensating a team making a trade to receive a draft pick.

Adelaide took a risk that Carlton would be bad and it paid off. Where that pick falls is almost entirely due to circumstances beyond their control. They have no control over whether Carlton wins their next game or not, and that will affect the number of draft pick they get. So would any AFL decision. It's the same outcome, due to a circumstance beyond their control. Why should they be compensated for that? They had full knowledge that their pick could be pushed back if Gold Coast (or hypothetically any club that finished below Carlton) suffered a loss in FA that gave them a high compensation pick. The same is true for a priority pick, it's no secret that Gold Coast have been abysmal on-field for their entire existence and may qualify for a priority pick.
 
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MemoryLane

Senior List
Jul 8, 2019
200
242
AFL Club
Adelaide
You're a crack up, mate. Your post was a massive whinge about how Adelaide are treated unfairly if a priority pick is awarded, when every other club loses out from it too, except the club it's awarded to. Adelaide simply lucked into SOS making a foolish trade, they don't have some God-given right to a top two pick. The entitlement you display is staggering.

This isn't the first time a high priority pick would be awarded. Why should the goalposts be moved? Equalisation, and investment. Gold Coast have been failing for so long that the AFL has to do something about it or risk their investment collapsing, and they're not going to jeopardise their ability to compete with the NRL for eyeballs in Queensland. I really don't care if it's fair or not, it's business. The entire draft, salary cap and closed-entry league are not fair. The distribution of talent around the nation relative to where clubs are located isn't fair either. Suck it up and stop whinging.

I never said Rowell and Anderson would never leave, nor did I ever claim to be an "intellectual", interesting choice of words. Now who's putting words in people's mouths?
God-given right? She has nothing to do with it.

Adelaide have a right to WHATEVER pick would normally be awarded to Carlton. Whether that's 1, 2 3 or 10. I'm not saying we get a top 2 pick for no reaosn but if Carlton finish 17th, that's what we are owed.

It would forever taint the future of pick swaps if this was allowed to happen. Once again it would be everyone else seeing the long term consequences except for you and the AFL.

You act like me advocating for my club is somehow a bad thing? Sorry that you don't give a s**t about yours or are too afraid to publically.

You can also stop bothering with the whinging, crying comments as a juvenile method to try and shame me into silence - the world can see you are writing without substance and have stooped to trying to bully to 'win'.

Just because the competition isn't fair doesn't mean clubs should bend over and take anything and everything. Every club gives feedback on a multitude of issues, stop being so precious.

Gold Coast have already had a tonne of top 10 picks, adding one more won't help them.

Once again the majority see this except for you.

I doubt that Cochrane even believes it'll help, seems more cry for help to get attention on the issue for any sort of fix rather than specifically another draft pick.

Equalisation does NOT mean you dismantle your trading and drafting mechanisms, particularly when the fix would be better with some extra money.
 

Johnny Bananas

Club Legend
Sep 10, 2010
1,804
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A sugar refinery
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Adelaide have a right to WHATEVER pick would normally be awarded to Carlton. Whether that's 1, 2 3 or 10.
They certainly do. And a priority pick would have pushed Carlton's pick back, just as a FA compensation pick would have.

I'm not saying we get a top 2 pick for no reaosn but if Carlton finish 17th, that's what we are owed.
Wrong. If Carlton finish 17th, you are owed whatever pick they would receive after equalisation measures are allocated. That includes FA compensation. And that includes priority picks.

It would forever taint the future of pick swaps if this was allowed to happen. Once again it would be everyone else seeing the long term consequences except for you and the AFL.
By that logic pick swaps are already tainted. Brisbane received an end of first round priority pick in 2016 and multiple clubs had made trades for 2nd and 3rd round selections prior to that. They all got shafted, where was the outcry then? Last year everyone besides Carlton got pushed back a spot for the Tom Lynch compensation pick, and the AFL was perfectly happy to let that happen. As they will be for this.

You act like me advocating for my club is somehow a bad thing? Sorry that you don't give a s**t about yours or are too afraid to publically.
Unlike you, I don't have blind entitlement for my club. I long ago learned to accept the world and the AFL aren't fair, and the deck is inherently stacked against many clubs for different reasons. The Lions have the misfortune of being located in a state where Aussie Rules isn't popular. Adelaide dominate a market where Aussie Rules is the only game in town, and only have one competitor for eyeballs. I'm not going to shed any tears if Adelaide loses out on something that practically every club had the potential to lose out on. In fact, every club other than Adelaide and the Gold Coast will lose out on it too, including my own. For some reason you can't see that, perhaps because you had your hopes built up so high for a top two pick.

You can also stop bothering with the whinging, crying comments as a juvenile method to try and shame me into silence - the world can see you are writing without substance and have stooped to trying to bully to 'win'.
It's not my problem if you feel shamed or not. You are complaining repeatedly in an entitled manner, I call that whinging. Get off the internet if you can't handle language that hurts your feelings.

Just because the competition isn't fair doesn't mean clubs should bend over and take anything and everything. Every club gives feedback on a multitude of issues, stop being so precious.
The clubs aren't giving feedback here, it's just you being sad that your precious top two pick may not happen.
 
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Mofra

Moderator
Dec 6, 2005
42,505
105,903
Footscray
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Looking at it further every team but one to win a flag since 2005 have benefited from either father sons or PP’s both of which ruin the integrity of the draft. The only side who I think didn’t was Sydney in 2012 who had COLA.
If ever a side needs a leg up like every one of the past 14 or so premiership sides have had it is GC. I don’t think they should get pick 1 but pick 19 is totally acceptable and they should probably get one again next year.
Their OOC player signings, academy selections and 17 year old concession signings haven't been enough of a leg up?

A couple of kids next year aren't going to make them a better side. Player retention will make them a better side. Perhaps a further increase to the player marketing allowance will help.
 

MemoryLane

Senior List
Jul 8, 2019
200
242
AFL Club
Adelaide
They certainly do. And a priority pick would have pushed Carlton's pick back, just as a FA compensation pick would have.


Wrong. If Carlton finish 17th, you are owed whatever pick they would receive after equalisation measures are allocated. That includes FA compensation. And that includes priority picks.


By that logic pick swaps are already tainted. Brisbane received an end of first round compensation pick in 2016 and multiple clubs had made trades for 2nd and 3rd round selections prior to that. They all got shafted, where was the outcry then? Last year everyone besides Carlton got pushed back a spot for the Tom Lynch compensation pick, and the AFL was perfectly happy to let that happen. As they will be for this.


Unlike you, I don't have blind entitlement for my club. I long ago learned to accept the world and the AFL aren't fair, and the deck is inherently stacked against many clubs for different reasons. The Lions have the misfortune of being located in a state where Aussie Rules isn't popular. Adelaide dominate a market where Aussie Rules is the only game in town, and only have one competitor for eyeballs. I'm not going to shed any tears if Adelaide loses out on something that practically every club had the potential to lose out on. In fact, every club other than Adelaide and the Gold Coast will lose out on it too, including my own. For some reason you can't see that, perhaps because you had your hopes built up so high for a top two pick.


It's not my problem if you feel shamed or not. You are complaining repeatedly in an entitled manner, I call that whinging. Get off the internet if you can't handle language that hurts your feelings.


The clubs aren't giving feedback here, it's just you being sad that your precious top two pick may not happen.
Priority picks don't sit well with people because they are handed out by the AFL at their discretion. Which is bulls**t. At least FA compensation has some logic (even though the AFL still root around with this).

Your claims of me doing it repeatedly only exist because you challenged my first statement. You had already called it whinging so it doesn't even fit your dumb definition (which would basically mean every post on here is a whinge and that you are whinging about me).

I know you keep avoiding the issue of future pick swaps but that really is what we are talking about here. Guarantee you'll keep glossing over it in favour of your ranting autobiography.

I totally acknowledge other clubs lose out and so i cant believe why they aren't upset either but I advocate for my club. I would expect Suns supporters to advocate for this. Your choice to be so cynical and accept anything and everything is your own.

I cant believe you log on a forum and get offended by people having competing views. Labelling everything "whinging" is a total waste of time. I dont care that you have a different view to me - we are on a forum, I expect someone to come at me with a diffetent view. It's odd that you seem to hate it.

And you still persist with pointing out the obvious- clubs don't give feedback through BF - when did I ever say they did? Again we are just sharing OUR views. You are so all over the place without ever really saying anything.

Everyone knows that when your comment has descended to telling someone on a FORUM that it doesn't impact the league or club you are done. Unbelievable.
 

Johnny Bananas

Club Legend
Sep 10, 2010
1,804
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A sugar refinery
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Brisbane Lions
Your claims of me doing it repeatedly only exist because you challenged my first statement. You had already called it whinging so it doesn't even fit your dumb definition (which would basically mean every post on here is a whinge and that you are whinging about me).
You decided to be sad because Adelaide wouldn't get the precious top two pick you seem to think they're entitled to. You had a good old whinge about it, that's my view. Die mad about it if you don't like that view.

I know you keep avoiding the issue of future pick swaps but that really is what we are talking about here. Guarantee you'll keep glossing over it in favour of your ranting autobiography.
On the contrary, I have mentioned future trades multiple times. I made a point about the last priority pick that was awarded and you chose to ignore it entirely, that's on you.

I cant believe you log on a forum and get offended by people having competing views. Labelling everything "whinging" is a total waste of time. I dont care that you have a different view to me - we are on a forum, I expect someone to come at me with a diffetent view. It's odd that you seem to hate it.
Nobody is offended here except you buddy, you seem very angry indeed that I dared to label your prattle as "whinging".

And you still persist with pointing out the obvious- clubs don't give feedback through BF - when did I ever say they did? Again we are just sharing OUR views. You are so all over the place without ever really saying anything.
You said it right here:
Every club gives feedback on a multitude of issues, stop being so precious.
You brought up the idea that clubs were giving feedback on this issue, yet there has been no public feedback from clubs on this issue. You're either making crap up or just bringing in irrelevant nonsense and equating yourself with the club.

Everyone knows that when your comment has descended to telling someone on a FORUM that it doesn't impact the league or club you are done. Unbelievable.
Another straw man argument. I never said it didn't impact the league or any club. It does, I just don't care about the impact. Do you have trouble reading?
 

MemoryLane

Senior List
Jul 8, 2019
200
242
AFL Club
Adelaide
You decided to be sad because Adelaide wouldn't get the precious top two pick you seem to think they're entitled to. You had a good old whinge about it, that's my view. Die mad about it if you don't like that view.


On the contrary, I have mentioned future trades multiple times. I made a point about the last priority pick that was awarded and you chose to ignore it entirely, that's on you.


Nobody is offended here except you buddy, you seem very angry indeed that I dared to label your prattle as "whinging".


You said it right here:

You brought up the idea that clubs were giving feedback on this issue, yet there has been no public feedback from clubs on this issue. You're either making crap up or just bringing in irrelevant nonsense and equating yourself with the club.


Another straw man argument. I never said it didn't impact the league or any club. It does, I just don't care about the impact. Do you have trouble reading?
You might need to read up on what multitude means. If you could read you would know that my point was about OTHER issues. This particular one is in it's infancy. Clubs in the past have come out and spoken about issues. Kennett and McGuire would be two easy people to research if you want a headstart.

The rest of your post was yet more attempted bullying/condescending to protect your lack of argument. Tiresome.
 

Coops93

Premiership Player
Aug 19, 2015
3,951
7,567
Gold Coast
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Carlton
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I think a big problem with both teams is that they haven't really been accepted by the wider AFL fanbase. The glee in which people revel in GWS losing another player or losing a final if often due to a "Them being given too much so they deserve it" sort of attitude is somewhat baffling. The Suns are often dismissed as a rabble, despite the fact that in the last 2 years at least the club has really turned itself around organisationally and culturally. But nobody is aware of that and nobody really cares, they're more than happy to see these 2 clubs fail. In this thread alone I've read several times; these 'clubs' - obviously giving the implication that they don't qualify for usage of the term by us high and mighty none expansion club followers. With that sort of attitude how can we expect them to succeed?

There's so much negativity from fans around these 2 teams and I can't really understand why. Why was it a bad thing for the AFL to try and expand the league? Shouldn't we be hoping for these teams to succeed, and indeed even encouraging them to do so? It can only be a good thing for the game if we did.
 

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