Strategy The Structure

[The Shag]

Was honestly surprised that it took until yesterday’s game for the commentary team to pick up on how poorly our zone is functioning.
Have sat and watched all year as the opposition have transitioned - almost uncontested- from half back to the forward 50. I think that the theory is meant to be; we allow them a bit of space where it doesn’t hurt too much, and we rely on our (supposedly) strong intercepters (weiters, Jones, Marchbank Simpson) to cut off and hurt on the rebound. This would provide some explanation of why we continue to pick such a tall defensive six. If I’m right, I think this is a good enough spin on the zone... because it’s playing to (what was) one of our strengths - but the theory is just not coming out in practice. At what point are the midfielders instructed to close in and provide pressure to the kickers? Why are our talks not positioned to best intercept? (Or rather, why do their men continue to mark almost uncontested?) Yesterday both the pressure on the incoming kicks and the logical positioning were non existent... and not for the first time this year.

For me this structural breakdown doesn’t just end with the zone though.. watching us try to move up the wing is sometimes unbearable. Do we not have a Plan B when our rebound game is not clicking? Additionally, when the ball is eventually moved inside 50, I have zero confidence in mostly everyone (other than Charlie) to create something.. and his goals are mainly from marks. When the balls hits the ground, our forward 50 pressure and creativity are non existent. I’d also go as far to say my confidence is at a solid 0% when there is a ball up or throw-in in our forward 50.

I thought this would be a good way to open a discussion on what exactly is and isn’t working on the field. What types of players could help to improve the current (theoretical) way we are trying to structure up? Something isn’t clicking... I’d like to discuss why?

Without wanting to go too much into list management and draft territory, a Rankine in our forward half would help, but what else?
Marchbank looked effective on the wing as a strong linkup before philips went down.. so we persist with this?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[blueblooded]

GReat thread and must be discussed and brought to the fore because it is in my opinion the biggest reason these results have happened!

This high press is not working due to:

- poor skills resulting in turnovers which end up in easy transition goals.
- players poorly positioned to protect counterattack transition which result in players looking like they aren’t trying
- players on the park not understanding where they need to be clearly due to lack of experience in that position in the zone (injuries a factor here)
- lack of forward pressure due to no forwards capable of putting pressure on in the forward half resulting in easy kicks out of defence which are giving our mids and backs no chance of interecepting or affecting the contest.

This is just my observation from the games live when the full high press has been implemented.

We have been competitive in games where the zone has been loosened and we play a more man on man game ala Sydney and Geelong and port last week as examples.

Clearly this zone is not working and it must be addressed as it is embarrassing the ease at which oppositions can play against it.

 

[Gavstar]

Hasnt been working most of the year. Lyon despite his stubbornness changed Freo's game plan back one year when it wasn't working. Not sure we have anything worthwhile to fall back to though. I think it's too late this year.

 

[pinot]

Year 1. Was good - very promising.
Year 2. Was average - but saw something being built due to rising star nominations. Gave everyone hope.
Year 3. Freefall.... seems the players do not know what they are doing. Have been completely structureless all year.

After three years , despite a debutant or two here and there you expect the players play to a system. As Hawthorn will tell you, its not the players its the system.

 

[passmark]

Unbalanced list full of holes and devastated by injury.

Wouldn't matter if our game plan was running up and down on the spot while rubbing our tummy and patting our head , we still couldn't pull it off every week.

 

[JustaBattler]

Byrne ASOS Plowman
Williamson MCreadie Docherty

were all unavailable yesterday and the week before and most all weeks before that....in fact all year!!!! FFS!!!

yesterday Simpson was a late out but Marchbank and Weitering couldn't finish the game

No point talking defensive structure or rebound if there are no players on the paddock.

This is what was left to defend against Brisbane

SOJ Jones Lamb
Murphy Rowe Thomas

I blame Weitering for all this.

Now understand this

Bolton pulls 2 / 6 forwards downfield in order to add numbers to stoppages so when ball flies into forward 50 - it flies straight back out - Pickett and Charlie were 2 against 4 from 2nd quarter onwards - when Phillips went down...
Hodge LITERALLY had no man on him for the last 2 quarters - he was allowed to stay in space make a cup of tea wait for his forwards to flood and roost a 60 meter bomb into Carlton's defensive 50 - goal every time.

Note how competitive the side was in Q1 before Phillips went down and Marchbank came off. Carlton was by FAR the BETTER SIDE

..down just 2 rotations and a tall forward NO PROBLEMO....

Seriously post match analysis on here is so dumb it beggars belief.

 

[mickelboy182]

Byrne a young unproven kid.
Macreadie a young unproven kid.
Williamson a young unproven kid (has looked good so far though)
ASOS unlikely to ever play again.

The unnecessary ending of that post sums it up really.

 

[JustaBattler]

Byrne a young unproven kid.
Macreadie a young unproven kid.
Williamson a young unproven kid (has looked good so far though)
ASOS unlikely to ever play again.

The unnecessary ending of that post sums it up really.

what is your point ? that Murphy/Lamb and SOJ are better defensive options than the above 3? or that their presence in the defensive mix didnt have much to do with defensive efforts and lack of structure? or that Marchbank/Phillips getting injured made no difference to anything?

or is it that it is all Weiterings fault -

are you adressing teh actual content of what i wrote or misquoting just to be a smart arse?

yeah I stand by my last paragraph very much so

 

[RudyBlue]

Byrne a young unproven kid.
Macreadie a young unproven kid.
Williamson a young unproven kid (has looked good so far though)
ASOS unlikely to ever play again.

True.

Though, they'd still be our preferred options and would've actually been trained as defenders (know our system) over the pre-season.

 

[J-dog]

Byrne ASOS Plowman
Williamson MCreadie Docherty

were all unavailable yesterday and the week before and most all weeks before that....in fact all year!!!! FFS!!!

yesterday Simpson was a late out but Marchbank and Weitering couldn't finish the game

No point talking defensive structure or rebound if there are no players on the paddock.

This is what was left to defend against Brisbane

SOJ Jones Lamb
Murphy Rowe Thomas

I blame Weitering for all this.

Now understand this

Bolton pulls 2 / 6 forwards downfield in order to add numbers to stoppages so when ball flies into forward 50 - it flies straight back out - Pickett and Charlie were 2 against 4 from 2nd quarter onwards - when Phillips went down...
Hodge LITERALLY had no man on him for the last 2 quarters - he was allowed to stay in space make a cup of tea wait for his forwards to flood and roost a 60 meter bomb into Carlton's defensive 50 - goal every time.

Note how competitive the side was in Q1 before Phillips went down and Marchbank came off. Carlton was by FAR the BETTER SIDE

..down just 2 rotations and a tall forward NO PROBLEMO....

Seriously post match analysis on here is so dumb it beggars belief.

Sorry mate but I don't agree with your low expectations. Phillips goes off and so everything goes out the window? That second quarter they annihilated us and Marchbank and Weiters were still in. They ripped us apart from halfback all game, including the first.
Watch it again. Only reason it was close at quarter time was they mucked up a few bad passes going into 50 and we got some lucky free kicks. Their transition was miles better than ours and they did it so easily I felt ashamed watching it.
My question to you is with all these skillful high pick players, why can't we chain 5 passes together in a row? Then ask yourself how can Geelong, Sydney and Hawthorn do it so easily without the high number of first round picks we have?
Please don't make excuses for them. See things for what they are and compare it to the rest. Other teams have plenty of injuries and they manage. Our players are not rubbish and unskilled. They will leave all us BF posters for dead. They train ok but for some reason when they pull on the team jersey on the weekend they turn into hopeless cases who mentally raise they white flag before halftime. A few goals in the last quarter means nothing for us - the other team has already had a wash and a beer and caught the train home. We are only under pressure until halftime and most games we only have 3-4 goals on the board by then. We have lost the game by that stage and the players know it. But why do they let it get so bad? Can't they at least get angry and start belting the crap out of their opponents? Their gonna lose anyway, may as well try and get an advantage somehow and put the team first!
Maybe they are trying too hard to hit targets or something. I don't bloody know and it frustrates the hell out of me that since Ratts we can't put 5 passes together without a turnover.
But what I do know is its not injury that makes us lose to the second, third and fourth last teams by 10 goals each. Save that excuse for when we play the Swans.

 

[SurreyBlue]

Sorry mate but I don't agree with your low expectations. Phillips goes off and so everything goes out the window? That second quarter they annihilated us and Marchbank and Weiters were still in. They ripped us apart from halfback all game, including the first.
Watch it again. Only reason it was close at quarter time was they mucked up a few bad passes going into 50 and we got some lucky free kicks. Their transition was miles better than ours and they did it so easily I felt ashamed watching it.
My question to you is with all these skillful high pick players, why can't we chain 5 passes together in a row? Then ask yourself how can Geelong, Sydney and Hawthorn do it so easily without the high number of first round picks we have?
Please don't make excuses for them. See things for what they are and compare it to the rest. Other teams have plenty of injuries and they manage. Our players are not rubbish and unskilled. They will leave all us BF posters for dead. They train ok but for some reason when they pull on the team jersey on the weekend they turn into hopeless cases who mentally raise they white flag before halftime. A few goals in the last quarter means nothing for us - the other team has already had a wash and a beer and caught the train home. We are only under pressure until halftime and most games we only have 3-4 goals on the board by then. We have lost the game by that stage and the players know it. But why do they let it get so bad? Can't they at least get angry and start belting the crap out of their opponents? Their gonna lose anyway, may as well try and get an advantage somehow and put the team first!
Maybe they are trying too hard to hit targets or something. I don't bloody know and it frustrates the hell out of me that since Ratts we can't put 5 passes together without a turnover.
But what I do know is its not injury that makes us lose to the second, third and fourth last teams by 10 goals each. Save that excuse for when we play the Swans.

Bingo!

 

[FairKouta]

We need a hibberd melksham type injection in our youth filled team like the demons did. They are both hardened senior players.
This trade period will shape our future and atleast we know now what we need. I think it is possible our players do not completly understand our game plan.

 

[J-dog]

We need a hibberd melksham type injection in our youth filled team like the demons did. They are both hardened senior players.
This trade period will shape our future and atleast we know now what we need. I think it is possible our players do not completly understand our game plan.

We need some cojones. The end.

 

[J-dog]

Just to prove a point I ask everyone on here, who on our team pushed themselves against the opposition's will and took the game on and thought about what they were doing and made passes that would hurt the other team.
I can think of only 1 and he's a third year player 19yo.
Everyone else on our team has to stop and think about what to do after they get the ball and generally make a rubbish short pass and then jog toward the guy they passed to. WTF?!
This guy thinks about it before he gets the ball. If we don't have a problem with gameplan or structure, how do even the other shit teams do it so much easier than us when they have lots of shit and young and raw players too?
They know where to go and what to do.
Why don't we?

 

[Stamos]

There are some structural issues coming from the coaching side (seriously, 2 ruckmen? WTF), but the vast majority are to do with personal.

Talent aside, so many of the players that have been completely missing, or underdone when they've played, are vital to our structure, and we simply don't have the players (even significantly lesser players) that are able to cover them within the structure. Our list was already thin and unbalanced, but each injury adds exponentially to the domino effect.

eg For the people questioning the including Williamson amongst our crucial outs, he would be our preferred choice to take the kick-ins (along with Docherty, also missing). This means the job falls to the likes of Daisy and Simmo, neither of whom are very good at taking the kick-ins, but then we also miss them being able to take the 2nd or third possession, which they are much better suited to, and then this falls to other players. It means the ball comes back in, more often and more quickly, and adds to the scoreboard pressure, and the pressure more generally. This is but one example.

 

[skadoosh]

Just to prove a point I ask everyone on here, who on our team pushed themselves against the opposition's will and took the game on and thought about what they were doing and made passes that would hurt the other team.
I can think of only 1 and he's a third year player 19yo.
Everyone else on our team has to stop and think about what to do after they get the ball and generally make a rubbish short pass and then jog toward the guy they passed to. WTF?!
This guy thinks about it before he gets the ball. If we don't have a problem with gameplan or structure, how do even the other shit teams do it so much easier than us when they have lots of shit and young and raw players too?
They know where to go and what to do.
Why don't we?

This. The number of times I see our players give off a handball or kick it to a teammate to get rid of the ball, rather than thinking if that pass will be effective startles me. Add in the bonus of that player doing nothing after disposing of the ball thinking, "I got rid of the ball, pressure is off me."

They need to start thinking of footy like chess - one handball to a teammate who is next to you and hit the target is good, but how does that help us score a goal? There is an end target, and that is not to just get rid of the footy from your hands.

 

[RAPPA]

Citing missing players is a cop out. The idea of having a structure and game plan is that it is common knowledge across all players and therefore can be implemented. Whether we had last year's back 6 playing yesterday or not, the fact remains that we had 6 AFL listed players occupying those positions.

Good thread, OP. We either have poorly skilled players that are not implementing the game plan, or a poor game plan that is easily exposed by the opposition.

 

[Soapy V]

Byrne a young unproven kid.
Macreadie a young unproven kid.
Williamson a young unproven kid (has looked good so far though)


The unnecessary ending of that post sums it up really.

Of course they are young and unproven. WE ARE REBUILDING. What do we do? Write off everyone that is young and unproven?

 

[JustaBattler]

Sorry mate but I don't agree with your low expectations. Phillips goes off and so everything goes out the window?

Kreuzer leaves forward line and goes to ruck. Rowe gets shoved forward. Kreuzer is playing with a head guard, he was concussed last week he shouldnt have played this week - he did because he is a warrior. So you have one partially fit player now having to play with little to no rotation all game and forward structure caputski.

Rowe goes forward and SOJ goes back. Simmo is not playing. Marchbank doesn't exit field as soon as he starts feeling funny he is playing feeling NQR for a while he isnt effective something is worng...he leaves..now we are down 2 players and 2 rotations...



"That second quarter they annihilated us and Marchbank and Weiters were still in. They ripped us apart from halfback all game, including the first."

WTF has Brisbane's rebound got to do with Marchbank and Weitering FFS? Teams have been rebounding all year - because of two reasons - ONE is Bolton pulls forwards backwards and gives teams easy exits - see how much gut running Pickett had to do to cover 2 players most of the time...the second reason is Carlton is slow up forward very slow as in snail paced slow- take Pickett aside who is seriously fast second game back btw and the rest are treackle slow - which is why Wright and Lamb have been pulled off forward duties ....Garlett is out injured and we are playing F'ken Graham as a HFF FFS..and Kennedy...

"Watch it again. Only reason it was close at quarter time was they mucked up a few bad passes going into 50 and we got some lucky free kicks. Their transition was miles better than ours and they did it so easily I felt ashamed watching it."

Every team is better at transition than carlton because as I said - every decent runner we have is out injured of backline..Byrne/Cuningham/Simpson/Dochert/Williamson - all out all of em...

"My question to you is with all these skillful high pick players, why can't we chain 5 passes together in a row? Then ask yourself how can Geelong, Sydney and Hawthorn do it so easily without the high number of first round picks we have?"

My question to you is who are all these high draft picks you are talking about?

If you mean SPS/Fisher/Lob/Charlie - all of them a re a notch above Graham/Lamb/Wright already - it is these rejects and VFL fill ins who are destroying any chance of continuity or class because they just dont have the skill or brains or leg speed to play AFL...

"Please don't make excuses for them. See things for what they are and compare it to the rest. Other teams have plenty of injuries and they manage."

You are pointing the finger at the wrong players above...Carltons list is so thin everywhere that 10 injuries I've listed above are huge outs - forcing Bolton to play 'deckchairs and under developed kids without rest..


"Our players are not rubbish and unskilled" They will leave all us BF posters for dead. They train ok but for some reason when they pull on the team jersey on the weekend they turn into hopeless cases who mentally raise they white flag before halftime. A few goals in the last quarter means nothing for us - the other team has already had a wash and a beer and caught the train home. We are only under pressure until halftime and most games we only have 3-4 goals on the board by then. We have lost the game by that stage and the players know it. But why do they let it get so bad? Can't they at least get angry and start belting the crap out of their opponents? Their gonna lose anyway, may as well try and get an advantage somehow and put the team first!
Maybe they are trying too hard to hit targets or something. I don't bloody know and it frustrates the hell out of me that since Ratts we can't put 5 passes together without a turnover.
"But what I do know is its not injury that makes us lose to the second, third and fourth last teams by 10 goals each." Save that excuse for when we play the Swans.

Read what I wrote before the game - Brisbane are playing like a side between Fremantle who they destroyed and EssenDONE as far as percentage goes they arent 17th on form - they are on the rise.. a lot better than win losses show playing like a 12- 14th NOT 17th.

and we were down 2 rotations for most of the game and 3 in the last quarter.

 

[Soapy V]

Very young list with injuries. Can't even go close to judging structure yet.

 

[JustaBattler]

Citing missing players is a cop out. The idea of having a structure and game plan is that it is common knowledge across all players and therefore can be implemented. Whether we had last year's back 6 playing yesterday or not, the fact remains that we had 6 AFL listed players occupying those positions.

Good thread, OP. We either have poorly skilled players that are not implementing the game plan, or a poor game plan that is easily exposed by the opposition.

Option #3 just poor posters who are clueless.

 

[Soapy V]

But what I do know is its not injury that makes us lose to the second, third and fourth last teams by 10 goals each. Save that excuse for when we play the Swans.

Some people really don't understand that when you are so young what injuries and injuries to key players does. It's massive

We also haven't been to put the same side on the park most weeks. Makes a difference

 

[Blue Bloods]

It seems strange to me that our structure looks solid when playing the top eight teams, but as soon as we play a team we are a real chance to beat the structure falls apart.

Do we change the structure/game plan to try and push for a win, become to attacking and lose our way.

The real bad result this year have been against the lesser teams not the best teams, why is this so?

 

[RAPPA]

Option #3 just poor posters who are clueless.

No, I see the lack of depth is compelling and even with a full list, we still have significant holes. In amongst the three A graders, the two warriors that are our heartbeat, the handful of promising youngsters and some serviceable players, we have several average/below average players that would not get a game in a top 8 team. We played young opposition teams in Fremantle and Brisbane and both teams smashed us and both had notable missing players.
I truly hope that all of our youngsters make it as they have all shown signs of brilliance. But our team, even with a full list, has issues and we can't pin our hopes at this stage on all of our young players next year playing consistently good football (e.g. SPS consistently playing the same type of game as last vs the Pies, or JW playing like his first year etc)

 

[Soapy V]

Year 1. Was good - very promising.
Year 2. Was average - but saw something being built due to rising star nominations. Gave everyone hope.
Year 3. Freefall.... seems the players do not know what they are doing. Have been completely structureless all year.

After three years , despite a debutant or two here and there you expect the players play to a system. As Hawthorn will tell you, its not the players its the system.

and when you have a core of experienced high level players in every week it makes a massive difference.

We are younger this year and have been devastated by injury. Why is this so hard for people to understand?