Society/Culture The terror of 'socialism' being fed as a moral ideology.

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Contra Mundum

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It was always going to take something big to make humanity lose faith in religion and money is the route of all evil. It all makes complete sense to me! Your generalizing is showing btw!
I’m a Catholic mate - I know these things - JPII came from Poland hated the shit out of the Polish Commos - he reigned for 30 years and appointed Cardinals that also hate commos.

That is why they all hate pope Frank



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Gethelred

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Suspect a lot of people who advocate for ‘socialism’ casually don’t really mean socialism. Most advocates for capitalism agree with a social safety net where it’s feasible etc. The argument then is more about the level of taxation and government spending and regulation.

Where people actually advocate socialism, and there’s no shortage of people genuinely calling for ‘ending the profit motive’ and municipilisation en masse, most reasonable people run for the hills and it’s in the interests of those just advocating for better healthcare etc to draw a line and differentiate themselves from the extreme.
I rather think you're using the term socialism to refer to things that happen under communism, rather than what most would consider to be socialist policies. But then, it isn't as though people on the left don't conflate right wing policies with extreme right conditions, either.
 

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Gavin Excell

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I rather think you're using the term socialism to refer to things that happen under communism, rather than what most would consider to be socialist policies. But then, it isn't as though people on the left don't conflate right wing policies with extreme right conditions, either.
The real history of socialism v the text book.wannabe hopes are miles apart
 

Gethelred

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Its a fascinating book if only for the banality of socialism and its impact on people.
The millions impacted by the horror of socialism russia 39-56 would hardly be known by modern left warriors
The real history of socialism v the text book.wannabe hopes are miles apart
Has anyone ever told you that you're fun? Because you are.
 

A Cut Above

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What I want is a society that integrates the best of socialism and the best of capitalism then spits out the pips. Which thankfully is fairly close to the society we have, though injustices & corruption will always exist.

I do think 100% unbridled Communism has proved more destructive to societies than 100% unbridled Neo-Capitalism, but in my humble estimation both are somewhat sound in theory but unworkable in practice. Give me a less ideologically-zealous system any day.
 

nut

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How many people around even want a vege patch? Surely changing tastes and more varied, cheaper fresh food in the supermarket is more likely to be driving the lack of demand for space to grow vege a than a sinister plan to keep the population under control?
 

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DrEvil_

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Social media has turned into a communist state, when you stop and think about it.

It started out as a backlash against the established msm.

Everyone had a voice, we were all equal, and it was online utopia of open communication and idea exchange.

Now 5 men control the entire internet, and if you disagree with any of them or use the wrong pronoun, they send Kathy Griffin around to kill you and all your high school mates.

Welcome to hell.
Ironically that's the result of capitalism isn't it?
 

Anja_Nees

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I rather think you're using the term socialism to refer to things that happen under communism, rather than what most would consider to be socialist policies. But then, it isn't as though people on the left don't conflate right wing policies with extreme right conditions, either.
No, the things I’ve referred to are absolutely socialist objectives. Parties that call themselves socialist no longer push so hard for them, which is my point. They should stop calling themselves socialist so as not to be conflated with the above.
 

Gethelred

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No, the things I’ve referred to are absolutely socialist objectives. Parties that call themselves socialist no longer push so hard for them, which is my point. They should stop calling themselves socialist so as not to be conflated with the above.
Regimes that did what you refer to labeled themselves socialist, but history has judged them communist in hindsight, usually due to their collective allocation of resources coupled with standardization of income outside of the ruling classes. It also does not help that socialism is more an umbrella term than a government type, where communism is a style of governing, with attributes that can be identified. There are plenty of modern governments that could be considered socialist in terms of their policy output, without also being communist in structure.

Flying in fear of turning this into yet another shitfight, this is rather where a significant amount of those on the right get it wrong, going after socialism due to conflating it with communism; you can have socialist policies within a capitalist context, often to the betterment of the society in question, but you cannot have capitalism with a communist government structure; you can have capitalist aspects, but not capitalism. By conflating the two, one side seeks to demonise their opposition and 'win', regardless of argument. Whether they do it deliberately or actually make the mistake of thinking the two are the same is conjecture, but doing so is incorrect.
 
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Regimes that did what you refer to labeled themselves socialist, but history has judged them communist in hindsight, usually due to their collective allocation of resources coupled with standardization of income outside of the ruling classes. It also does not help that socialism is more an umbrella term than a government type, where communism is a style of governing, with attributes that can be identified. There are plenty of modern governments that could be considered socialist in terms of their policy output, without also being communist in structure.
Flying in fear of turning this into yet another shitfight, this is rather where a significant amount of those on the right get it wrong, going after socialism due to conflating it with communism; you can have socialist policies within a capitalist context, often to the betterment of the society in question, but you cannot have capitalism with a communist government structure; you can have capitalist aspects, but not capitalism. By conflating the two, one side seeks to demonise their opposition and 'win', regardless of argument. Whether they do it deliberately or actually make the mistake of thinking the two are the same is conjecture, but doing so is incorrect.
OIC it like how Leftists label conservatives as Nazis for standing up for Nationalism.<_<
 

smokingjacket

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Its a fascinating book if only for the banality of socialism and its impact on people.
The millions impacted by the horror of socialism russia 39-56 would hardly be known by modern left warriors
Stalinism was so bad that the Supreme Soviet of the Soviet Union denounced his entire legacy after this death and promised the people of the Soviet Union a different vision of the future.

However, I could make the same argument about insane cruelty of early capitalism as it transitioned from feudalism.
 

Total Power

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The only thing wrong is your statement that central planning causes alcoholism..
What exactly is funny about this? work place condition is actually a contribution factory to alcoholism (not the only factor, check my 2 papers below) this is a fact, lack of life goals, monotonous work and lack of rewards, friendship and entertainment helps alcoholism. You know you will get nowhere in life.



Historically (with a few exceptions: prohibition in the early 1900s and Gorbachev's anti-alcohol campaign in 1985–87), the Russian government has encouraged drinking, as alcohol provided considerable revenue. It also kept the working class in an inebriated state, pre-empting public dissent against inadequate living and working conditions. However, when government control of alcohol production and sales was introduced, a return to former policies was swift, following widespread public discontent (White, 1996 ; Herlihy, 2002 ; Bassik, unpublished work).


https://academic.oup.com/alcalc/article/45/1/104/122295

and
https://academic.oup.com/alcalc/article/42/5/500/211380


if you read the papers you will see how works lacked discipline, this eventually led to the collapse of the soviet system, there is no accountability under socialist system. You can turn up drunk at work and no one will bat an eyelid. Try doing that in Australia and see where it gets you.

The workplace conditions are terrible, this lead to more frustration including absenteeism. Are you denying workplace conditions were terrible? if you don't have accountability, you have nothing. You can turn up drunk at work and this led to fights at workplace. Since wages were almost guaranteed, why would anyone work? It wasn't any different in East Germany/Bulgaria or other Eastern Bloc countries. Workplace conditions were terrible period. It wasn't the only contributing factor to alcoholism but certainly one of the major ones.
 
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