Society/Culture The terror of 'socialism' being fed as a moral ideology.

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Soft Downhill Skier

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I've clarified it multiple times I just don't have YOUR perfect answer.
I'm not sure how we can discuss what your friends are saying.

In terms of any society wide push for communism, there is none.

But you mentioned socialism in your title, which is different, but have then focused on communism when you've tried to clarify it.
 

biggiemediums

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I'm not sure how we can discuss what your friends are saying.

In terms of any society wide push for communism, there is none.

But you mentioned socialism in your title, which is different, but have then focused on communism when you've tried to clarify it.
Not my friends mate; too moronic. The discussion I had hoped for was more to do with other experiences in coming across this belief more often or not at all because to me they're the most terrifying of morons regardless of the minority.

Yeah fair enough on the second point, but I haven't claimed that there's a society wide push; so not sure why you need to add that in.

I'm using both Socialism/Communism in the way that the crowd I'm talking about use it and believe it. Have you read the Marx Communist Manifesto; same thing.
 

smokingjacket

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Most the things we call the internet were invented at Bell Labs, not through state research.

The Soviets were nowhere near as advanced.
That depends entirely on what your definition of "most of the things" is and you can make that same argument for the iPhone. Is the most important discovery its creation and R&D or the packaging together of technologies into a new consumable product? Much of this discussion relies on whether the mixed economy or the war economy is a type of capitalism or a hybrid system.

There's no way the internet is developed in a Hayekian market system.
 

CatFan79

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I know I might as well try having a conversation with my dog but would you please tell me how you've arrived at the point where you think the internet and phones aren't allowed under socialism?
When did I say they weren't allowed? It's the principle of it.

Capitalism brings to a society innovation, progression and wealth creation.

Socialism stifles all of the above.
 

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CatFan79

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Yes, its easy for those with security in life, to attack the utopian vision of some young & idealistic kids who feel disenchanted.

If we don't give kids some hope & a stake in society, why would they behave & support a system that they see as unfair & biased against them?.

Its a case of don't shoot the messenger, fix the problem.
Fix the 'problem' of having to accept you start at the bottom and have to work hard to build a life for YOURSELF?

Create a Utopian world where the wealth of others who've worked hard is 'redistributed' to them?

Give me a break!

That's not a problem it's the reality of life and if they can't accept it they're doomed to be losers for life.
 
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This is an example of why it's hard to have a serious discussion around socialism.

Socialism? I kind of agree with him but has anyone challenged that it’s not socialism

Mind you some yankee folks thought bailing out such high flying financiers in the GFC was socialism.

That....was Marx’s capitalist classes looking after its own, apparently idelogically opposed to the previous couple of decades width industry after industry being sacrificed to market forces
 
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When did I say they weren't allowed? It's the principle of it.

Capitalism brings to a society innovation, progression and wealth creation.

Socialism stifles all of the above.
It does it’s fair share of stifling to maintain the status quo where it gets away with it
 

TheGreatBarryB

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Fix the 'problem' of having to accept you start at the bottom and have to work hard to build a life for YOURSELF?

Create a Utopian world where the wealth of others who've worked hard is 'redistributed' to them?

Give me a break!

That's not a problem it's the reality of life and if they can't accept it they're doomed to be losers for life.
Where were these capitalists during GFC when governments and banks were saving their arses. Leave it to the markets and we would have experienced bigger catastrophe.

The bigger cost would have been borne on the ones who could least afford ie loss of jobs, savings etc. not a lot of the responsible wealthy who hide their money in havens and family trusts.

You can have a system that supports innovation and entrepreneurship but you can also balance that with government spending that ensures the gap between the top very few and large bottom is not too huge.

Why cut money to disabled and those on welfare when wealthy get huge tax advantages such as family trusts, super advantages, capital gains tax, negative gearing etc. Wealthy companies earning billions pay **** all tax. Level playing field...huh!
 

CatFan79

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Where were these capitalists during GFC when governments and banks were saving their arses. Leave it to the markets and we would have experienced bigger catastrophe.
If the Government officials DID THEIR JOB and enforced proper regulation rather than allowing themselves to be manipulated it wouldn't have happened.

Government should primarily regulate the free market, but corrupt officials are just looking to get rich off kickbacks.

Corrupt Governments caused the GFC, bailing banks out is about as anti-Capitalist as you can get.

Why cut money to disabled and those on welfare when wealthy get huge tax advantages such as family trusts, super advantages, capital gains tax, negative gearing etc. Wealthy companies earning billions pay **** all tax. Level playing field...huh!
Who's talking about cutting money to disabled?

The top 1 percent of taxpayers account for more income taxes paid than the bottom 90 percent combined. Not to mention, the wealthy contribute a higher percentage of their income to charity than any other.



BTW don't kid yourself into thinking taking money from rich people is in any way an effective way to improve the lives of poor people.
 
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They are largely capitalist. Some communist characteristics remain though, like being led by a dictator and having 2 million odd in gulags.
Sounds like a smaller proportion than the USA. Not that I’m defending it. It will be interesting to watch as it becomes the superpower
 

TheGreatBarryB

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The top 1 percent of taxpayers account for more income taxes paid than the bottom 90 percent combined. Not to mention, the wealthy contribute a higher percentage of their income to charity than any other.
Well of course in actual dollars the very top earn multi millions, even a small percentage is more than someone on base wage. I’m talking about the guy on base pay that pays a greater percentage of their pay on tax than corps and individuals earning m/billions and paying single figure % tax.

As for fault, yes let’s praise the entrepreneurs and risk takers when they make millions/billions but let’s blame governments when they **** up
 

CatFan79

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Well of course in actual dollars the very top earn multi millions, even a small percentage is more than someone on base wage. I’m talking about the guy on base pay that pays a greater percentage of their pay on tax than corps and individuals earning m/billions and paying single figure % tax.
Your argument simply doesn't stack up and I've proven it.

As for fault, yes let’s praise the entrepreneurs and risk takers when they make millions/billions but let’s blame governments when they **** up
All depends on whether your focus is creating a more productive, wealthier society in general or just complaining because some people have more than you.

Like basically everyone who preaches Socialism, sounds like the latter.
 

smokingjacket

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When did I say they weren't allowed? It's the principle of it.

Capitalism brings to a society innovation, progression and wealth creation.

Socialism stifles all of the above.
Up until the Chinese Communist Party embraced markets and unleashed the power of the CCP to build a different economy, the Soviet Union was the best example of rapid human and economic development the world had seen.

In fact from a starting point of complete de-industrialisation, the Soviet Union was able to quickly catch up and then lead the West in many scientific industries, causing a total panic in the West and precipitating huge state investment in science during the Cold War.

There are many criticisms you can make of communist states but insufficient innovation and progress isn't one of them. Modernity is at the core of socialism.
 

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That depends entirely on what your definition of "most of the things" is and you can make that same argument for the iPhone. Is the most important discovery its creation and R&D or the packaging together of technologies into a new consumable product? Much of this discussion relies on whether the mixed economy or the war economy is a type of capitalism or a hybrid system.

There's no way the internet is developed in a Hayekian market system.
But that doesn’t make it necessarily socialism as the requirement for it. The Nazis has the best rocket engineers in the world, for instance.
Up until the Chinese Communist Party embraced markets and unleashed the power of the CCP to build a different economy, the Soviet Union was the best example of rapid human and economic development the world had seen.

In fact from a starting point of complete de-industrialisation, the Soviet Union was able to quickly catch up and then lead the West in many scientific industries, causing a total panic in the West and precipitating huge state investment in science during the Cold War.

There are many criticisms you can make of communist states but insufficient innovation and progress isn't one of them. Modernity is at the core of socialism.
They copied what the Brits did in the 19th century, got really good at heavy industry, then failed at the next step. Their automotive industry, for instance, was laughable. More quality cars produced in West Germany than the entire Soviet bloc.

The US had them whipped technologically by about 1965.
 
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FireKraquora

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Up until the Chinese Communist Party embraced markets and unleashed the power of the CCP to build a different economy, the Soviet Union was the best example of rapid human and economic development the world had seen.

In fact from a starting point of complete de-industrialisation, the Soviet Union was able to quickly catch up and then lead the West in many scientific industries, causing a total panic in the West and precipitating huge state investment in science during the Cold War.

There are many criticisms you can make of communist states but insufficient innovation and progress isn't one of them. Modernity is at the core of socialism.
Would you prefer to live in China/Russia, or a western capitalist country?
 
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