the usual suspects

[ah_19]

america is trying to catch the "terrorrist" who commited that crime
here is a list they can start wtih to help out

Palestinians, i think they are getting sick of having american made missiles fired into thier lands by an american funded army
People tend not to like this, especially you giving billions of dollars to israel every year to fund its army, israel which BY christian visitors from the west is declared to be a tottaly racist and evil state that is comparative with the nazi's

Chechnyans- i think they have also had enough american made missiles launched at them by american helicopters and planes, america constanly sells new weapons to the russians to try to kill the chechnyans, despite all this and being outnumbered about 32:1 they cant be beaten, but i still think they wouldnt be too happy

Afghanies- American imposed sanctions kill 1000's every month, maybe the parnets, brothers, or uncles of the countless dead are a bit upset with you, maybe they just want some food, deperation breeds acts like this, they could be responsible, but dont worry america killing 1000's of people in an attemp to capture one man is ok, you are good guys

Turks - you know one of the most oppresive governments in the world which doesnt give people the right to even practice thier religion, the one YOU keep in power and YOU put in power , oppresed people DONT like to be opressed, people who you never see on TV because middle easter people dont have human rights, so america never bothers to "step in", when they protest the right to practice thier own religion in peace they are met wtih riiot police, jailed beaten etc


Saudi Arabians - Another government which you support and YOU hold in power, maybe some of the women got sick of being locked up at home and decided to go for an airplane trip or some of the grandchildren of the real leaders of saudi arabia are a bit upset, you know the real leaders? the ones which you massacred after world war 1 when you INVITED them to peace talks, good thing they were peace loving folk who all came in peace, but hey slaughtering them with machine guns when they got there was for freedom wasnt it???
wasnt it??????????????

Iraqi's - 5 years after the first weapons inspector said that the country was clean of weapons (and got sacked for it) the sanctions still rule, yet the thing is Saddam is only getting more powerfull, youre doing nothing to him, his army, his power or his wealth. Your sanctions are killing the ordinary people, setting the country back 100's of years. AND YOU KNOW IT. your food for oil program may have got you some enemeis, because it actually REDUCED the food going into iraq, eh??. But i dont think its saddam himeself that did this to you, why would he? his children and relatives study in amercia without harm. eh? he wouldnt risk harming them. The ultimate result of the sanctions is, saddam is richer, more powerfull and safer, the sanctions only harm the people, which is what you want isnt it?, cant have a country filled wtih the most knowledgeable people in the world not obey you can we? so lets kill them? think they will mind? hmmm maybe they will, and hang on, didnt YOU put all the people in the middle east in power after that slaughter of the real leaders in the 1920's, so if you put them all in power then, surely someone couldnt have come along and be president without your support?


Egypt - Another county whose oppresive government you support where people arent even allowed to wear a beard, very islamic country isnt it. They have loved being ruled by western powers fot he last 200 years to the steady destruction of the great society they once had, banning women from being doctors, businesswomen etc when you conquered egypt may have pissed off some of them a 100 years ago, another few million suspetcs to look at here


Africa - 10000's die every month in this place, but its good to see you helping them, taking all of thier wealth through multinational corporations to help them, enslaving them in cheap labour and taking all the money they earn as payment on interest to your "donations". Maybe some parents got sick of thier children dying because you took all the wealth of thier lands, but i doubt this option, you took all thier money, they cant afford plane tickets.

And lastly lets not forget Osama Bin Laden.
He is guilty of everything isnt he
This TERRORIST which YOU launched 20 scud missiles at killing 20 students in a university in afghanistan but failed to kill him
does this seem a bit strange to you
trying to kill a terrorist by launching 20 missles into the center of a city, hmmmmm, but hey killing 1000's of afgranis because hes in afghanistan is worth it isnt it, despite the fact that they arrested him 1 year ago, asked for proof that he is a terrorist, said they would hand him over if you had proof, damn you didnt have any, how come? killing 1000's of ppl a month through sanctions to catch a man of which you have NO PROOF of any crimes.
MAYBE next time you teach a man like osama to fight, to be a terrorist and defend his homeland against the russians during the cold war,maybe you should turn around when he is no longer usefull and try to kill him and his family, i dont think he would like that too much, he may turn on you.
And does killing 1000's of innocent people in afghanistan in a war against one man seem right? well of course it is, they arent americans


I in NO WAY support the terrorist actions against but things need to be put in perspective

The people responsible deserve to die, all of them
but that evil, is NOHTING compared to what america does to the people in this world, killing 1000's per month through sanctions alone in 2 or 3 countries ,especially through thier controlled governments in the middle east, asia and africa.
When you stuff up peoples lives so much, destroy thier hopes,opress them, kill thier relatives, force them to live lives of misery they get desperate, i was in no way surprised at what happened,
if no civilians had died i would have said good work
americas actions througout the world by its politicians kill more people in a more evil manner in 1 week than has died in that attack. They are very selective in what they see of themselves.
they need to be stopped. but you cant fight evil wtih evil because then you are just as bad

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

What has this got to do with the eagles?

Wrong board mate.

 

[AlfAndrews]

Congratulations, ah_19, on successfully articulating what I tried, so clumsily, to get across on the general talk board.

 

[The Truth]

Originally posted by AlfAndrews
Congratulations, ah_19, on successfully articulating what I tried, so clumsily, to get across on the general talk board.

Decided to rejoin us eh Alfy boy?

Piss off - your views are not welcome here

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

All of this might be appropriate to add some balance to cries of war but it is entirely inappropriate during an initial time of shock and mourning for innocent people.

Put yourself in the position of the American people right now. It is so easy to get on your political soapbox from the safety of your own homes. And no doubt, you have been to all the countries concerned and been privy to all the facts of each of these events. Or is it just as likely that in your attempts to not conform to societies views, you have chosen to believe unreservedly what anarchist publications tell you because it makes you different and cool?

The truth is none of us really knows the truth. We know only Propaganda provided by America and all the other countries involved in these events. To air it at a time of grieving is insensitive and self serving.

I'm open minded on these issues. I know there is always blame on both sides but maybe, just maybe, you are the ones being sold a dummy here???

 

[Same Old's]

Originally posted by The Truth


Decided to rejoin us eh Alfy boy?

Piss off - your views are not welcome here

Then what's the points of an opinion board?

 

[jod23]

ah-19 - you are a lost soul it would seem. You try be america for a day and make the entire world happy!!! You try and rule your own country and then have to worry about others and POLICE the entire world. You have that pressure on you and see if you make mistakes!!!!!

America are the good guys, they make mistakes, nobodys perfect but that doesnt mean that they deserved what happened on Tuesday! Pull your head in man and just think about the kind of pressure the United States has been under for a 100 years. Just be thankful the most powerful nation in the world is the USA and not Nazi Germany or Saddam Husseins Iraq or Usama Bin Laden and Afghanistan.

Just stop and think next time Ah-19!

 

[Same Old's]

Jod,

Things arn't that simple as to state this country is the "good guys" and that country is the "bad guys". It's not as clear cut as that.

When you talk about the US being the world's "Police". That's just propaganda. Whenever America gets involved in something it's usually because of self-interest.

 

[jod23]

Originally posted by Same Old's
Jod,

Things arn't that simple as to state this country is the "good guys" and that country is the "bad guys". It's not as clear cut as that.

When you talk about the US being the world's "Police". That's just propaganda. Whenever America gets involved in something it's usually because of self-interest.

Oh cmon SO's it is that clear cut. Just imagine if the USA kept there noses out of everything. Where would we be then??? I know America isnt perfect, no country is but you have to give them there due for leading from the front. They are the world police, if you have a problem ask the US to fix it. Thats the reality and the pressure from that must be enormous.

 

[Smokin]

Tell me when the US has ever attacked WITHOUT giving warning or notice, for NO apparent reason, and then DID NOT take the blame for it after?

Tell me when?

Actually, tell me when EVER a terrorist attacked, then didnt own up? Tell me!!

What we saw the other day was the lowest form of filth on this planet at work. This will be proven when, not if, the US retaliates! Dont be suprised if whole nations get wiped out. It's sad, but America has been the nice guy for too long. This is gonna get very messy. Members of the US govt are stating they have never seen the us Govt and defense force use such words and angered by such an event.

If it wasnt for the US there would be many more problems in this world that we currently have.

On the Asian world news last night their commentators are $hitting themselves! They are scared the US is gonna leave their interest in some Asian countries, and concentrate domestically. This, they say, could be catestrophic for asia as basically the US is controlling things there.

This is what irks me about some parts of Europe who "hate" Americans, ie France.

Short, selective memories!

 

[Bloodstained Angel]

Hitman - do you honestly think the United States has never engaged in illegal terrorist acts ?

Think again mate !

In the period 1970-1972 the United States Air Force without warning and with total indiscrimination began a campaign of heavy airstrikes in Cambodia.

The bombing was totally indiscriminate, it was carried on secrecy and it was a total violation of Cambodian neutrality.

It is estimated that at least a quarter of a million innocent Cambodian civilians perished in the carnage.

Cambodia itself, especially theose provinces close to the Vietnamese border was totally devastated, literally bombed back into the stone age.

At the end of it all, the bombing did not even achieve its stated aims.

Just one example of where the United States has readu willing and able to act with complete brutality to protect its own interests.

Its not a black and white world Hitman, The Americans are not 'good guys' wearing white hats. The United States is guided by self interest, just like the rest of us.

... and the United States has shown in the past they will use whatever means necessary, legal or otherwise, to protect those interests.

I'm not condoning what has happened, and I'm not agreeing with ah-19's anti-USA rant there, but please - try and avoid looking at these issues from a moral viewpoint.

There is no right or wrong, there is no good guy or bad guy - there is just the brutal cold reality of international politics where selfish self-interest is the main consideration and the guy with the biggest guns and the fattest wallet usually ends up winning.

cheers

 

[Captain Sensible]

You are right BSA. This is a complicated issue that doesnt have simple black and white answers.

The Yanks need to be very considered with their response. An ill-considered reaction could have huge repercussions for the entire world.

They need to be sure they have the right people in their sights, and not just shoot at the first head that appears over the parapet. It will not be a short and sharp response, the Americans will go and reduce things to ground zero against the people they think have perpetrated this horror.

 

[Pessimistic]

The point I see is the US is asking for unconditional support from the rest of us before revaling it's plans. a US interviewer on CNN was badgering the French president for an unconditional "all the way with LBJ' I thought she was quite rude. Especially as airport security in europe is 100 times that in the US itself.

We all want to help but do we want another vietnam ?

Help to make the world a safer place ? - YES

Help to deduce the amount of arms in the world, and to cut production ? - YES

Help to stop the circumastances and people who create terrorism ? - YES

Help to sate the blood lust of the american people ? NO NO NO

 

[Bloodstained Angel]

Absolutely LocalYokel

I think it is very important for the Americans to be very careful about identifying the perpetrators.

If you are following the news at the moment it seems that there is a quite a persuasive case being built against Osmam Bin Laden as the person chielfly responsible for this.

If that does turn out to be the case then stand by for a sustained and continuing military assualt against Bin Laden and the Afghan state in general.

Don't forget Goerge W. was quite deliberate in saying he regarded terrorists and those that give them support and shelter as one and the same.

Chilling words for Afghanistan but something has to done, and I think the Taliban are gonna get their just desserts very soon.

I'm worried though - Air Power of itself will not achieve anything. If the USA are serious about rubbing out Bin Laden and his Taliban supporters then I think the only sure fir way to do this is to actually miltarily invade Afghanistan itself.

Which could drag the USA into another Vietnam - style nightmare where ground troops are floundering around in a Third World Asian country without a hope of achieveing the aims they were sent there for in the first place - and the body bags will start piling up as well.

I support retribution for what has been done, but the USA must tread warily in its approach to all this, otherwise they could find themselves in 'spot of bother'

cheers

 

[Woodsman]

Of course America is involved in terrorism.

Of course vested American interests are involved in promoting and prolonging dissent, unrest and rebellion for commercial and political reasons.

Of course the American tobacco industry continues to pump out their poisons purely for commercial gain.

Of course American industry continues to produce faulty products that kill people because it is cheaper to pay damages than it is to recall and repair the product.

Americans directly and indirectly kill millions every year for profit and power.

But

• 
  America is made up of Americans, people who are just like us.
  
  America is the symbol of our western way of life.
  
  We identify very strongly with the American way of life and the American ideals of freedom and democracy.
  
  This disaster has happened in a city that looks very similar to Melbourne or Sydney. Look out the window and that collection of towers that marks the city could be the one that we've been seeing on television over the last two days.
  
  It's virtually happened in our lounge rooms and offices. A blow by blow description right there in our faces.

Emotions are running high and most people are, understandably, not very rational at the moment and wanting to blame. They don't want to know that America might be reaping the harvest it has sown, they just want revenge for the terrible things that have happened this week.

We need time out. We don't have room for political statements, we don't want to see the big picture - we just want to cope with what has happened.

Alf, the views you expressed so soon after those tragic events would normally not have been offensive. Your incredibly bad timing meant that people were incapable of hearing the message that you were trying to send and saw instead an attempt to turn a tragedy into an opportunity for political point scoring. You sacrificed yourself to people who were ready to lash out at anything, their reaction was understandable and predictable.

 

[TigerTank]

I will not respond to the poison being peddled by America-haters who have shown their true colours over this whole affair, except on their: "I'm not condoning this action but ..." lies. You f#cking hypocrites!

Oh, AH (Adolf Hitler?)-19: Chechnia was attacked by T-72 tanks made in Russia, Hind D/E helicopters made in Russia and MiG-27s and SU-24s made in Russia. And the American Government has never EVER made a "Scud" - how about doing some research before you say such childish rubbish. Your comments on Egypt show that you simply have no idea what you are talking about.

-----

In my opinion, a lot of this tension will be defused if the Pakistani Government can convince the Taliban to hand over bin Laden for trial.

Apparantly negotiations are under way - this would be a fine, relatively non-violent outcome, with no bombing necessary.

 

[Westy_Boy]

Just before I reply, although I don't agree entirely with Ah19's post, this was an interesting comment i found on a website:

"Throughout the world, on any given day, a man, woman, or child is likely to be displaced, tortured, killed, or 'disappeared', at the hands of governments or armed political groups. More often than not, the United States shares the blame." -- Amnesty International, 1996


Sorry to "direct" this longwinded post at you, ODN's - but this is the first chance I've had to post my thoughts on this topic.

Originally posted by The Old Dark Navy's
All of this might be appropriate to add some balance to cries of war but it is entirely inappropriate during an initial time of shock and mourning for innocent people.[/B]

Don't governments always twist and turn "facts" after a bombing raid? They don't consider it innapropriate during their time of shock and mourning, when that shock and mourning isn't directly effecting them.

And what were the people killed during the events outlined in Ah19's post? Many of them were innocent people who have families, who have friends and many who had there lives cut short for NO reason, but;

Where was the condemnation of the cruelty against innocent civilians?

Where was the mourning?

Where were the tears?

Where were/are the prayers for the dead?

Where was the aid?

Where was the 24/7 media coverage on CNN?

Where were the declarations of solidarity from nations against those acts of terror?

Put yourself in the position of the American people right now.

Put yourself in the shoes of every citizen in every one of those countries. What happened after every single air attack, after every single trade sanction, after every single death of an innocent citizen - What's the difference? Every loss of human life due to a bombing or what not shouldn't be regraded differently, IMO .... but the Western world always manage to somehow "justify" theirs. Just like the deaths of Americans in that horrific tragedy, there is no justification in the death of innocent civilians anywhere - America's and NATO's actions aren't ending oppression, they aren't destroying extremest groups - they're doing nothing but harnessing more hatred.


Another point: If your country and self has been attacked, what would be your first thought?

Revenge, retaliation, and justice, right ? Fair enough feelings.

America is after that now -- Why aren't heads of state/people from arabic nations "justified" in having similar feelings after what has happened to them in the past? They're human too. After the past days events, it's quite clear that it's "human" nature to want to retaliate after being bombed, isn't it?

But why is it different for the Middle East? If this kind of tragedy had have happened in ANY middle eastern country, with an even greater loss of life, and their president/prime minister had come out and said "we are going to retaliate violently against whoever did this", what would have been the reaction? Not supportive, that's for sure. So why are America's calls of "retaliating violently" applauded?

To air it at a time of grieving is insensitive and self serving.

Given the background of the situation, I think that Ah19's timing is appropriate. Everyone sees anything that gives examples of past events as being "anti american", and as political pointscoring - I see it more as a question of "why?" - The world has to examine and understand "why". What led those "people" to inflict that horror on innocent civilians? This is a VERY simplistic view, but; If you don't find the question, you wont find the solution to rectify it.

If Bush's comments -- "we were attacked because we are a beacon of freedom" -- were sincere, and he truly believes that as the sole reasoning behind any attack on America instead of reasons such as those given in this topic, how the hell is this kind of mindless killing ever going to end? How the hell are we going to find a long term solution to avoid WWIII?

And no doubt, you have been to all the countries concerned and been privy to all the facts of each of these events.

I'm sure he hasn't -- I certainly haven't and don't know the full situation in those countries -- i don't pretend to -- but I'm also sure that about 80% of everyone on this board (and probably American and Australian society in general) would not know ONE thing about ONE of those points Ah19 alluded to. It is not reported, it is not frowned upon. Most people only see one point of view -- The US are the "good guys", the middle east are the "bad guys".

I mean look at Jod: He has the gall to say that Ah19 is a "lost soul" merely because he has been provided information which Jod has probably NEVER, EVER seen before. Don't those points have some truth in them? Why is someone that reports them a lost soul?

Or is it just as likely that in your attempts to not conform to societies views, you have chosen to believe unreservedly what anarchist publications tell you because it makes you different and cool?

Different and cool? These are wars and lives we're talking about here, ODN's. If someone posts these views, I very much doubt they're doing it to be "out there" or "go against the trend".

The truth is none of us really knows the truth. We know only Propaganda provided by America and all the other countries involved in these events.

I agree 100%. Both Ah19's and Jod23's posts (and probably mine here) are good examples of both sides of this. But I would argue that Jod23's opinion, and I quote "America are the police - they're the good guys has been the subject of far more "brainwashing", ignorance, and propoganda than Ah19's. In some of the instances that Ah19 mentioned, he's fairly noted that many of those regimes and dictatorships are killing and destroying their people -- He has no problem with labelling them as the "bad guys" -- In Jod's view, no matter what the USA does, in the end they're still the good guys.



Tuesday night's events were acts of evil -- innocent people who have NOTHING to do with politics, suffering and crimes on the middle east, were killed because the actions of delluded pathetic excuses for human beings who decided to fly a plane into the side of a building. I want them to rot in hell. Not one of those victims deserved to die. Friends, wives, husbands, fathers, mothers, sisters and brothers were killed for NO reason whatsoever. NO ONE deserves this -- Not innocent americans, not innocent people from the middle east.

 

[Bee]

Westy, that is the best and most sensible post I have read in here since this whole thing happened.

Thank you.

 

[1AD]

Originally posted by Smokin
Tell me when the US has ever attacked WITHOUT giving warning or notice, for NO apparent reason, and then DID NOT take the blame for it after?

Tell me when?


Short, selective memories!

I agree with you BUT During the Vietnam board America secretly bombed Cambodia (Neutral country ) to what they said was the stone age.
Chile..The CIA helped the Pinochet regime exterminate what they considered the enemy (this included children)

CIA helped Saddam get into power etc

There are numerous examples of America helping other countries with state sponsered killing.
(remember Ollie North?)

NOT ONE innocent person deserves to die and I condemn the killing but please spare us the USA must be right scenario.

 

[pants42]

Well written westy a balanced view, thanks

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Westy, I won't quote your last post responding to me. We'll spare the extra page in the thread.

I respect your opinion and it is very intelligent and possibly quite correct. Still has nothing to do with what I was trying to say.

I am not comparing the plights of Americans or Arabs or any other country. I am not saying one country deserves more consideration or sympathy than any others. I am not responsible for the volume of or lack of coverage afforded to their respective plights. I am merely saying that some people are mourning for the American people and rather than belittle that mourning, perhaps those with political views could choose their times a little more carefully and respectfully. If thousands of innocent Arabs were killed and there were a rash of grieving posts about it, it would be entirely inappropriate for anyone to straight away start going on about how they deserved it because their country did this or that.

The other comment I made is that none of us here in Australia or in most parts of the world truly know what has occurred in many of the situations mentioned and as such are forming our opinions depending on the information we are fed. Fact!

Your sound arguments would have been best served responding to somebody that was actually arguing one side of the argument.

All I am saying is, a respectable period of mourning for the dead please!

 

[ah_19]

thank you westy
very intellgently and informatively written
this world would be 100 times a better place if people would question things like you.

i dont wnat to insult you jod, but you seriuosly need to stop listening to american propaganda, i couldnt beleive that you actually beleive that stuff
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=11463
amnesty international site, read about your good guys there

ww3 is probobly here, i beleive westy will choose the right side when it comes to it, i hope ONLY that the rest of you are informed enough to think logically on it.

 

[ah_19]

TigerTank, talk on egypt?

Quote by the first Jewish president of Brittan a long time ago
"As long as they have this, they are unconquarable"
he said, holding up the koran in parliment
if you want i will find his name, and the date
after 100 years of trying to conquer egypt, he showed them how, ever since then they have done everything they can do destroy islam in egypt, and through most of the world.
When they conqured egypt, the british aristocracy were shocked to find women as doctors, nurses and businesswomen, they quickly banned this because women were too "gentle" for such things. The brittish may be gone but thier mark is still there, and thier henchment still rule.

I have talked to people who have been there, intellgent well informed people whose knowledge of the world is astonishing.
and i would take their word of whats its like over yours anyday.
have you been there? have you talked to people who have been there? if not how do you know? CNN? that zionist controlled news channel?

Chechnya - i will get you a quote from a wester jounalist tommorow on this. but aside from that quote, russia tried to conquer them, it coulndt, america is trying to supply it weapons to win, but it wont, despite being outnumred 32-1, having nothing but machine guns vs planes tanks helicopters and missile launchers they are still fighting, and on open ground. please tell me how?

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Originally posted by ah_19

ww3 is probobly here, i beleive westy will choose the right side when it comes to it, i hope ONLY that the rest of you are informed enough to think logically on it.

Are you serious? I might have totally misinterpreted Westy's words but I am pretty sure he was denouncing the violence regardless of who the orchestrators are. Choose sides? I sincerely hope that this is not the intent of your posting.


Westy, the initial anger might seem like the American retaliation is being applauded but the reality is the rest of the world is saying they have to be very careful about their targets. That any 'collateral damage' would harm their cause greatly. A lot is said in the heat of the moment but the majority of people aren't applauding at all. I recognise that they want to stamp out those that would harm innocent civilians quite deliberately but would pray that no innocent civilians are hurt by that retaliation. At the very least, if innocents are harmed, I would hope that the American government expresses their sorrow at that. Whether it is for the cameras or not, that is what I have always seen during any conflict. America are expected to play by the rules of engagement and are judged accordingly, if they stray from those rules, the world is watching and judging. Many countries and terrorists groups do not honour any rules of engagement but because the world eyes are focussed on the super power, this often goes unnoticed.

We do have a thing known as the tall poppy syndrome in this country and America as a country is subject to this. Do we pass judgement on all countries with the same eyes?

This is very much a two-sided street. I do not advocate violence in any way shape or form. But I also do not subscribe to the turn the other cheek theory. America has the right to protect itself against their attackers, not target civilians. I am sure they will not target civilians deliberately. Right now I am listening to them saying, "we must respond in justice not revenge."

 

[jod23]

Originally posted by ah_19
thank you westy
very intellgently and informatively written
this world would be 100 times a better place if people would question things like you.

i dont wnat to insult you jod, but you seriuosly need to stop listening to american propaganda, i couldnt beleive that you actually beleive that stuff
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=11463
amnesty international site, read about your good guys there

ww3 is probobly here, i beleive westy will choose the right side when it comes to it, i hope ONLY that the rest of you are informed enough to think logically on it.

Where to for you my son...you seem lost. A pity it looks like no one can help.