Discussion The VFA premierships debate - should they be recognised as elite level premierships?

[Supermercado]

Let the clubs claim whatever they want, but changing the official history (especially including the pre-VFA flags, which is good for Melbourne but just an awful idea overall) is ridiculous.

 

[rbartlett]

My two cents worth is here:

Colin Carter is going about this wrong.
The final tally should be CLUB SPECIFIC, not COMPETITION specific.

So for instance - Richmond's SENIOR team (1st XVIII) has won 13 flags.
Now how that is broken down is secondary. (2 VFA, 10 VFL, 1 AFL). In our early Annual Reports, our club always recognised our VFA flags along with our VFL flags.

So my belief is you simple count what your SENIOR TEAM (1st XVIII) are. Regardless of what competition they played in.
If RichmondFC suddenly left the League and joined, say, the Tasmanian Football League, and won the flag in 2020, well then that would be our 14th flag.
Because that's our SENIOR team playing.

So for Footscray, their 1st XVIII history is 1898, 1899, 1900, 1908, 1913, 1919, 1920, 1923, 1924, 1954, 2016.

Their 2014 'VFL' win falls under the 2nd XVIII history (RESERVES TEAM).

In summary this shouldn't be driven by the competition theyre in. It's driving by the direct lineage of their senior history.

 

[Procrastinator35]

My two cents worth is here:

Colin Carter is going about this wrong.
The final tally should be CLUB SPECIFIC, not COMPETITION specific.

So for instance - Richmond's SENIOR team (1st XVIII) has won 13 flags.
Now how that is broken down is secondary. (2 VFA, 10 VFL, 1 AFL). In our early Annual Reports, our club always recognised our VFA flags along with our VFL flags.

So my belief is you simple count what your SENIOR TEAM (1st XVIII) are. Regardless of what competition they played in.
If RichmondFC suddenly left the League and joined, say, the Tasmanian Football League, and won the flag in 2020, well then that would be our 14th flag.
Because that's our SENIOR team playing.

So for Footscray, their 1st XVIII history is 1898, 1899, 1900, 1908, 1913, 1919, 1920, 1923, 1924, 1954, 2016.

Their 2014 'VFL' win falls under the 2nd XVIII history (RESERVES TEAM).

In summary this shouldn't be driven by the competition theyre in. It's driving by the direct lineage of their senior history.

I have a completely different spin on this absolute kerfuffle altogether....The only thing that's motivating this inane push, is both Colin's & all other Geelong supporters inferiority complex.....There's the bare-bones of it all.

 

[Pessimistic]

Note that after almost 30 years, the VFL felt grown enough to stop quoting pre 1897 premierships

Maybe now its 30ish since 87 or 91, time for AFL to grow up too

 

[the croucher]

Let the clubs claim whatever they want, but changing the official history (especially including the pre-VFA flags, which is good for Melbourne but just an awful idea overall) is ridiculous.

There were NO "pre-VFA flags" because there was no "home-and-away season" major level competition in Victoria prior to the VFA.

Matches played up to and including 1876 were unofficial and randomly organised between club secretaries.

 

[blueycarlton]

Even after the formation of the VFA, club secretaries organized the the games.
When Collingwood entered the VFA in 1892 their secretary had arranged for them to play 17 matches. 18 was the required number of games to play for the VFA premiership.
To help them out, Carlton then cancelled the match they had arranged with Ballarat, and played Collingwood at Victoria Park. It was Collingwood's debut VFA match, it was also a Carlton home game, and the Blues donated the gate takings to Collingwood.

Prior to the VFA, of course there was a competition, and the premier team was recognised by the newspapers. The Victorian competition from 1858 to 1897 was the top comp in the country.

Many Victorian players from many clubs went to Adelaide in the mid 1870's and took a major part in establishing the Victorian game there. George D. Kennedy along with his brother Kirk, Sam Wallace, Billy Dedman, Loch Bracken were just some of the Carlton players who went to Adelaide.
George Kennedy and Sam Wallace started the South Adelaide club, their colours are blue and white, and these two played a large part in starting the S.A.F.A. (SANFL) in 1877.

The 8 clubs who formed the VFL had all played in the country's top competition (VFA and Pre VFA), if they want to to recognise their Pre VFL era premierships then that is ok. I received a letter from Carlton a few years ago with the Pre VFL premierships on the letter head. Some Carlton Life Certificates from around the 1920's had the Pre VFL Premierships marked on them. I have no problem in their recognition, but of course other-johnny-come-lately club's do have a problem, because they weren't around as pioneer clubs and did nothing for the development of the game.

I believe it is fair to say that without Carlton, I doubt that Australian Football would have survived much past the 1860's.
The Blues were the only team who could really match the powerful Melbourne club. Carlton were not made up by civil servants/professional people as were Melbourne, or sons of squatters/Geelong Grammar types as was the Pivots. Geelong, then, was too far away and it was too costly to play each second week in Melbourne.
Carlton was the original working man's club, 28 long years before the advent of Collingwood. The matches played between the Reds and the Blues fired the the public's imagination, constantly drawing the largest crowds. Their forth coming matches was the talk of all Melbourne, 10,000 plus flocked to their games. These were some of the largest football crowds in the world. The Australian game was the world's first mass spectator football code.
This close rivalry between these two clubs really put Australian Football on a solid foundation.

The Pre VFL/AFL era, especially the players have all but been disregarded by the VFL/AFL. I think only George Coulthard is the only player to have had some recognition. Sure, he was a great player but there were many others. These pioneers were household names, as famous as any of the 20th Century's or today's stars.

Sorry, got a bit off topic.

 

[Ice-Wolf]

My two cents worth is here:

Colin Carter is going about this wrong.
The final tally should be CLUB SPECIFIC, not COMPETITION specific.

So for instance - Richmond's SENIOR team (1st XVIII) has won 13 flags.
Now how that is broken down is secondary. (2 VFA, 10 VFL, 1 AFL). In our early Annual Reports, our club always recognised our VFA flags along with our VFL flags.

So my belief is you simple count what your SENIOR TEAM (1st XVIII) are. Regardless of what competition they played in.
If RichmondFC suddenly left the League and joined, say, the Tasmanian Football League, and won the flag in 2020, well then that would be our 14th flag.
Because that's our SENIOR team playing.

So for Footscray, their 1st XVIII history is 1898, 1899, 1900, 1908, 1913, 1919, 1920, 1923, 1924, 1954, 2016.

Their 2014 'VFL' win falls under the 2nd XVIII history (RESERVES TEAM).

In summary this shouldn't be driven by the competition theyre in. It's driving by the direct lineage of their senior history.

And that is still wrong because the 10 VFL & 1 AFL are the same ******* league.

Should be no breaking up of senior/junior teams just the competition they played in.

So VFA/VFL flags for the highest division in that league and VFL/AFL flags for the highest division in that league and then if you want to include Reserves/lower division or other titles you can as the separate competitions that they are.

Richmond is 2 VFA/VFL, and 11 VFL/AFL
Footscray is 10 VFA/VFL and 2 VFL/AFL
Port is 37 SANFL, 4 Champions of Australia and 1 VFL/AFL
Geelong is 10 VFA/VFL, 9 VFL/AFL, 13 VFL/AFL Reserves etc (Unlike Geelong I'm adding the the 3 recent VFL to the VFA/VFL tally and leaving the VFL/AFL Reserves as the separate competion it was)
St Kilda is 1 VFL/AFL

 

[Ice-Wolf]

Maybe now its 30ish since 87 or 91, time for AFL to grow up too

The VFL and AFL are the same entity it's the ones that want to seperate them that need to grow up.

Do we seperate the records of Brian Harris and Brian Lake or Hertier 'Harry' O'Brien and Hertier 'Tier' Lumumba?

THe VFA/VFL and VFL/AFL are separate concurrent entities.

 

[blueycarlton]

"Champions of Australia" does not count.
All the South Australian teams that played for it in Melbourne lost. Most of the Victorian teams that played in Adelaide lost.
It was not the focus of that year, as was the premiership of their local competitions.
The players treated it was an all expenses paid interstate holiday.
You have to remember that Richmond, Footscray and North Melbourne only won VFA flags after the 8 clubs broke away and formed the VFL. They were never top teams up until 1897 although North did come close in one year, finished third I think.
The VFA was from 1896 a second rate competition. The SAFA/SANFL like the WAFL although the top comp in their states were never the equal of the VFL.

 

[footyfan1978]

Even after the formation of the VFA, club secretaries organized the the games.
When Collingwood entered the VFA in 1892 their secretary had arranged for them to play 17 matches. 18 was the required number of games to play for the VFA premiership.
To help them out, Carlton then cancelled the match they had arranged with Ballarat, and played Collingwood at Victoria Park. It was Collingwood's debut VFA match, it was also a Carlton home game, and the Blues donated the gate takings to Collingwood.

Prior to the VFA, of course there was a competition, and the premier team was recognised by the newspapers. The Victorian competition from 1858 to 1897 was the top comp in the country.

Many Victorian players from many clubs went to Adelaide in the mid 1870's and took a major part in establishing the Victorian game there. George D. Kennedy along with his brother Kirk, Sam Wallace, Billy Dedman, Loch Bracken were just some of the Carlton players who went to Adelaide.
George Kennedy and Sam Wallace started the South Adelaide club, their colours are blue and white, and these two played a large part in starting the S.A.F.A. (SANFL) in 1877.

The 8 clubs who formed the VFL had all played in the country's top competition (VFA and Pre VFA), if they want to to recognise their Pre VFL era premierships then that is ok. I received a letter from Carlton a few years ago with the Pre VFL premierships on the letter head. Some Carlton Life Certificates from around the 1920's had the Pre VFL Premierships marked on them. I have no problem in their recognition, but of course other-johnny-come-lately club's do have a problem, because they weren't around as pioneer clubs and did nothing for the development of the game.

I believe it is fair to say that without Carlton, I doubt that Australian Football would have survived much past the 1860's.
The Blues were the only team who could really match the powerful Melbourne club. Carlton were not made up by civil servants/professional people as were Melbourne, or sons of squatters/Geelong Grammar types as was the Pivots. Geelong, then, was too far away and it was too costly to play each second week in Melbourne.
Carlton was the original working man's club, 28 long years before the advent of Collingwood. The matches played between the Reds and the Blues fired the the public's imagination, constantly drawing the largest crowds. Their forth coming matches was the talk of all Melbourne, 10,000 plus flocked to their games. These were some of the largest football crowds in the world. The Australian game was the world's first mass spectator football code.
This close rivalry between these two clubs really put Australian Football on a solid foundation.

The Pre VFL/AFL era, especially the players have all but been disregarded by the VFL/AFL. I think only George Coulthard is the only player to have had some recognition. Sure, he was a great player but there were many others. These pioneers were household names, as famous as any of the 20th Century's or today's stars.

Sorry, got a bit off topic.

Do not say sorry. Rhett and yourself really add some really interesting historical information would not have known if not had read both your posts.

 

[Ice-Wolf]

"Champions of Australia" does not count.
All the South Australian teams that played for it in Melbourne lost. Most of the Victorian teams that played in Adelaide lost.
It was not the focus of that year, as was the premiership of their local competitions.
The players treated it was an all expenses paid interstate holiday.
You have to remember that Richmond, Footscray and North Melbourne only won VFA flags after the 8 clubs broke away and formed the VFL. They were never top teams up until 1897 although North did come close in one year, finished third I think.
The VFA was from 1896 a second rate competition. The SAFA/SANFL like the WAFL although the top comp in their states were never the equal of the VFL.

Doesn't really matter how serious the competition was if they won that comp they won that comp and they can include those wins as wins in that comp. I make no judgement of the quality of each achievement or it's merits in the year it was achieved.

i.e. A VFL/AFL flag in a war year when only 4 teams competed is still a VFL/AFL flag etc. a Tally is a tally not judgment on relative quality.

 

[Pessimistic]

Of course the eight hour day achievement was also key to a huge spectator sport developing.

Labour Day[edit]
Labour Day commemorates the achievements of the Australian labour movement. The celebration of Labour Day has its origins in the eight-hour day movement, which advocated eight hours for work, eight hours for recreation, and eight hours for rest. On 21 April 1856 Stonemasons and building workers on building sites around Melbourne, Australia, stopped work and marched from the University of Melbourne to Parliament House to achieve an eight-hour day. Their direct action protest was a success, and they are noted as the first organised workers in the world to achieve an eight-hour day with no loss of pay, which subsequently inspired the celebration of Labour Day and May Day. In Tasmania the public holiday is called Eight Hours Day and in the Northern Territory it is called May Day.

The Labour Day public holiday varies considerably between the various states and territories. It is the first Monday in October in the Australian Capital Territory, New South Wales and South Australia. In Western Australia, it is the first Monday in March. In both Victoria and Tasmania, it is the second Monday in March. In the Northern Territory, and in Queensland[2] it is the first Monday in May.

 

[blueycarlton]

Doesn't really matter how serious the competition was if they won that comp they won that comp and they can include those wins as wins in that comp. I make no judgement of the quality of each achievement or it's merits in the year it was achieved.

i.e. A VFL/AFL in a war year when only 4 teams competed is still a VFL/AFL flag etc. a Tally is a Tally not judgment on relative quality.

The 4 team comp during one year of WW1 was still a fair dinkum competition.
Other clubs dropped out because of travel costs/patriotic duty/being seen to sacrifice something for the war effort. However it deprived the supporters of those clubs, many of them servicemen at home and abroad, a chance to watch or read about their teams when they were stuck in a freezing water filled muddy trench on the Western Front, or in the hot, lice and flea infested waste lands of the Middle East.
As I said, the "Champion of Australia" means nothing. The Premiership means everything.

I asked my Millwall suporting relation in London, what means the most to him.
Is it England winning the World Cup? Is it Millwall becoming European Champions?
He said, "No, it is Millwall winning the Premiership."

Just on the 8 hour day.
Add to that, many workers received a half holiday on Saturday. So they worked Saturday mornings and had the arvo off to watch football. During and after the Gold Rush, Melbourne was the richest city in the word. Workers had the time and the money spend on recreational pursuits, unlike other workers worldwide.

 

[Kwality]

Doesn't really matter how serious the competition was if they won that comp they won that comp and they can include those wins as wins in that comp. I make no judgement of the quality of each achievement or it's merits in the year it was achieved.

i.e. A VFL/AFL flag in a war year when only 4 teams competed is still a VFL/AFL flag etc. a Tally is a tally not judgment on relative quality.

Our history is what it is & attempts to rewrite it should be called out. A VFA flag is just that, genuine & relevant.

 

[worbod]

It is an unjustifiable desire from the AFL to want to steal part of the VFA's history and weld it into the VFL/AFL history.

 

[Ice-Wolf]

Our history is what it is & attempts to rewrite it should be called out. A VFA flag is just that, genuine & relevant.

How am i saying any different?

 

[Ice-Wolf]

As I said, the "Champion of Australia" means nothing. The Premiership means everything.

If Port thinks "Champion of Australia" counts then it counts. It might not mean jack to you, me or anyone else but it means something to them.

Again is not about the relative merit of the achievement, it's just a tally of the achievement.

To bring it back to pre 1897 VFA premierships. They are VFA premierships they go on the VFA/VFL tally not on the VFL/AFL tally as they aren't VFL/AFL records they are meaningless to the offical record of the VFL/AFL competition.

 

[blueycarlton]

If Port thinks "Champion of Australia" counts then it counts. It might not mean jack to you, me or anyone else but it means something to them.

Again is not about the relative merit of the achievement, it's just a tally of the achievement.

To bring it back to pre 1897 VFA premierships. They are VFA premierships they go on the VFA/VFL tally not on the VFL/AFL tally as they aren't VFL/AFL records they are meaningless to the offical record of the VFL/AFL competition.

OK, let the Port Adelaide Magpies count them if they want, as they are the correct descendants.

Then while we are at it, we might was well include all those 8 meaningless Escort/Sterling/Fosters Cup night premierships in the 70's and 80's.
The mighty Port Adelaide Magpies failed to make the Grand Finals of those.

 

[rbartlett]

And that is still wrong because the 10 VFL & 1 AFL are the same ******* league.

Should be no breaking up of senior/junior teams just the competition they played in.

Richmond is 2 VFA/VFL, and 11 VFL/AFL

It's not wrong. Because , as I wrote earlier, I'm listing Richmond's SENIOR flags. And the competition it was played in should be listed with asterix, or footnote. So you and I both agree Richmond has 13 SENIOR flags.

We seem to differ on Footscray's tally.
The Senior and the Reserves flags SHOULD be broken up, even if they were under the same competition banner.

Richmond are on 13 senior flags.
Footscray are on 11 senior flags etc.

It actually doesn't matter what competition the senior flags were won in. All that should matter for the clubs is how many senior flags were won.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

It's not wrong. Because , as I wrote earlier, I'm listing Richmond's SENIOR flags. And the competition it was played in should be listed with asterix, or footnote. So you and I both agree Richmond has 13 SENIOR flags.

We seem to differ on Footscray's tally.
The Senior and the Reserves flags SHOULD be broken up, even if they were under the same competition banner.

Richmond are on 13 senior flags.
Footscray are on 11 senior flags etc.

It actually doesn't matter what competition the senior flags were won in. All that should matter for the clubs is how many senior flags were won.

For the club records absolutely. Hence Richmond’s long storied history they record 13 senior flags for their club records.

For the major competition (AFL / VFL by name) premierships are counted in that competition.
Hence Richmond sits on 11 AFL / VFL flags.

 

[rbartlett]

For the club records absolutely. Hence Richmond’s long storied history they record 13 senior flags for their club records.

For the major competition (AFL / VFL by name) premierships are counted in that competition.
Hence Richmond sits on 11 AFL / VFL flags.

Yep. Whatever the club's history is, the AFL should reference that.

 

[footyfan1978]

What actually happened to the VFA admin in the 1990's ?. Were they effectively broken up and taken over by AFL Victoria or are they part of the board for AFL Victoria ?
Did the breakaway league from 1897 virtually absorb what was left of VFA football in mid 1990's? Does anyone in football actually represent VFA interests anymore or has it virtually stopped existing?
I ask because Colin Carter said on radio the AFL own the VFA....

 

[Ice-Wolf]

It's not wrong. Because , as I wrote earlier, I'm listing Richmond's SENIOR flags. And the competition it was played in should be listed with asterix, or footnote. So you and I both agree Richmond has 13 SENIOR flags.

It is ******* wrong because in the context of Richmond's "senior" ******* flags the AFL the VFL are the same ******* thing!

 

[Ice-Wolf]

OK, let the Port Adelaide Magpies count them if they want, as they are the correct descendants.

It's one club now and no the magpies when they existed as a separate entity were not the correct decendant the Port in the AFL was.

 

[Supermercado]

There were NO "pre-VFA flags" because there was no "home-and-away season" major level competition in Victoria prior to the VFA.

Matches played up to and including 1876 were unofficial and randomly organised between club secretaries.

Yep badly put by me. If you're going to count the 3x Challenge Cup wins of 1870, 1872 and 1876 for us you may as well add 1865, 1868 and 1869 because pretending any of them are the equal of a VFL/AFL flag (even the 1900 one we Bradburied our way to) is bonkers.