Supermercado
The straw that stirs the drink
Let the clubs claim whatever they want, but changing the official history (especially including the pre-VFA flags, which is good for Melbourne but just an awful idea overall) is ridiculous.
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My two cents worth is here:
Colin Carter is going about this wrong.
The final tally should be CLUB SPECIFIC, not COMPETITION specific.
So for instance - Richmond's SENIOR team (1st XVIII) has won 13 flags.
Now how that is broken down is secondary. (2 VFA, 10 VFL, 1 AFL). In our early Annual Reports, our club always recognised our VFA flags along with our VFL flags.
So my belief is you simple count what your SENIOR TEAM (1st XVIII) are. Regardless of what competition they played in.
If RichmondFC suddenly left the League and joined, say, the Tasmanian Football League, and won the flag in 2020, well then that would be our 14th flag.
Because that's our SENIOR team playing.
So for Footscray, their 1st XVIII history is 1898, 1899, 1900, 1908, 1913, 1919, 1920, 1923, 1924, 1954, 2016.
Their 2014 'VFL' win falls under the 2nd XVIII history (RESERVES TEAM).
In summary this shouldn't be driven by the competition theyre in. It's driving by the direct lineage of their senior history.
Let the clubs claim whatever they want, but changing the official history (especially including the pre-VFA flags, which is good for Melbourne but just an awful idea overall) is ridiculous.
And that is still wrong because the 10 VFL & 1 AFL are the same ******* league.My two cents worth is here:
Colin Carter is going about this wrong.
The final tally should be CLUB SPECIFIC, not COMPETITION specific.
So for instance - Richmond's SENIOR team (1st XVIII) has won 13 flags.
Now how that is broken down is secondary. (2 VFA, 10 VFL, 1 AFL). In our early Annual Reports, our club always recognised our VFA flags along with our VFL flags.
So my belief is you simple count what your SENIOR TEAM (1st XVIII) are. Regardless of what competition they played in.
If RichmondFC suddenly left the League and joined, say, the Tasmanian Football League, and won the flag in 2020, well then that would be our 14th flag.
Because that's our SENIOR team playing.
So for Footscray, their 1st XVIII history is 1898, 1899, 1900, 1908, 1913, 1919, 1920, 1923, 1924, 1954, 2016.
Their 2014 'VFL' win falls under the 2nd XVIII history (RESERVES TEAM).
In summary this shouldn't be driven by the competition theyre in. It's driving by the direct lineage of their senior history.
The VFL and AFL are the same entity it's the ones that want to seperate them that need to grow up.Maybe now its 30ish since 87 or 91, time for AFL to grow up too
Even after the formation of the VFA, club secretaries organized the the games.
When Collingwood entered the VFA in 1892 their secretary had arranged for them to play 17 matches. 18 was the required number of games to play for the VFA premiership.
To help them out, Carlton then cancelled the match they had arranged with Ballarat, and played Collingwood at Victoria Park. It was Collingwood's debut VFA match, it was also a Carlton home game, and the Blues donated the gate takings to Collingwood.
Prior to the VFA, of course there was a competition, and the premier team was recognised by the newspapers. The Victorian competition from 1858 to 1897 was the top comp in the country.
Many Victorian players from many clubs went to Adelaide in the mid 1870's and took a major part in establishing the Victorian game there. George D. Kennedy along with his brother Kirk, Sam Wallace, Billy Dedman, Loch Bracken were just some of the Carlton players who went to Adelaide.
George Kennedy and Sam Wallace started the South Adelaide club, their colours are blue and white, and these two played a large part in starting the S.A.F.A. (SANFL) in 1877.
The 8 clubs who formed the VFL had all played in the country's top competition (VFA and Pre VFA), if they want to to recognise their Pre VFL era premierships then that is ok. I received a letter from Carlton a few years ago with the Pre VFL premierships on the letter head. Some Carlton Life Certificates from around the 1920's had the Pre VFL Premierships marked on them. I have no problem in their recognition, but of course other-johnny-come-lately club's do have a problem, because they weren't around as pioneer clubs and did nothing for the development of the game.
I believe it is fair to say that without Carlton, I doubt that Australian Football would have survived much past the 1860's.
The Blues were the only team who could really match the powerful Melbourne club. Carlton were not made up by civil servants/professional people as were Melbourne, or sons of squatters/Geelong Grammar types as was the Pivots. Geelong, then, was too far away and it was too costly to play each second week in Melbourne.
Carlton was the original working man's club, 28 long years before the advent of Collingwood. The matches played between the Reds and the Blues fired the the public's imagination, constantly drawing the largest crowds. Their forth coming matches was the talk of all Melbourne, 10,000 plus flocked to their games. These were some of the largest football crowds in the world. The Australian game was the world's first mass spectator football code.
This close rivalry between these two clubs really put Australian Football on a solid foundation.
The Pre VFL/AFL era, especially the players have all but been disregarded by the VFL/AFL. I think only George Coulthard is the only player to have had some recognition. Sure, he was a great player but there were many others. These pioneers were household names, as famous as any of the 20th Century's or today's stars.
Sorry, got a bit off topic.
Doesn't really matter how serious the competition was if they won that comp they won that comp and they can include those wins as wins in that comp. I make no judgement of the quality of each achievement or it's merits in the year it was achieved."Champions of Australia" does not count.
All the South Australian teams that played for it in Melbourne lost. Most of the Victorian teams that played in Adelaide lost.
It was not the focus of that year, as was the premiership of their local competitions.
The players treated it was an all expenses paid interstate holiday.
You have to remember that Richmond, Footscray and North Melbourne only won VFA flags after the 8 clubs broke away and formed the VFL. They were never top teams up until 1897 although North did come close in one year, finished third I think.
The VFA was from 1896 a second rate competition. The SAFA/SANFL like the WAFL although the top comp in their states were never the equal of the VFL.
Doesn't really matter how serious the competition was if they won that comp they won that comp and they can include those wins as wins in that comp. I make no judgement of the quality of each achievement or it's merits in the year it was achieved.
i.e. A VFL/AFL in a war year when only 4 teams competed is still a VFL/AFL flag etc. a Tally is a Tally not judgment on relative quality.
Doesn't really matter how serious the competition was if they won that comp they won that comp and they can include those wins as wins in that comp. I make no judgement of the quality of each achievement or it's merits in the year it was achieved.
i.e. A VFL/AFL flag in a war year when only 4 teams competed is still a VFL/AFL flag etc. a Tally is a tally not judgment on relative quality.
How am i saying any different?Our history is what it is & attempts to rewrite it should be called out. A VFA flag is just that, genuine & relevant.
If Port thinks "Champion of Australia" counts then it counts. It might not mean jack to you, me or anyone else but it means something to them.As I said, the "Champion of Australia" means nothing. The Premiership means everything.
If Port thinks "Champion of Australia" counts then it counts. It might not mean jack to you, me or anyone else but it means something to them.
Again is not about the relative merit of the achievement, it's just a tally of the achievement.
To bring it back to pre 1897 VFA premierships. They are VFA premierships they go on the VFA/VFL tally not on the VFL/AFL tally as they aren't VFL/AFL records they are meaningless to the offical record of the VFL/AFL competition.
And that is still wrong because the 10 VFL & 1 AFL are the same ******* league.
Should be no breaking up of senior/junior teams just the competition they played in.
Richmond is 2 VFA/VFL, and 11 VFL/AFL
For the club records absolutely. Hence Richmond’s long storied history they record 13 senior flags for their club records.It's not wrong. Because , as I wrote earlier, I'm listing Richmond's SENIOR flags. And the competition it was played in should be listed with asterix, or footnote. So you and I both agree Richmond has 13 SENIOR flags.
We seem to differ on Footscray's tally.
The Senior and the Reserves flags SHOULD be broken up, even if they were under the same competition banner.
Richmond are on 13 senior flags.
Footscray are on 11 senior flags etc.
It actually doesn't matter what competition the senior flags were won in. All that should matter for the clubs is how many senior flags were won.
For the club records absolutely. Hence Richmond’s long storied history they record 13 senior flags for their club records.
For the major competition (AFL / VFL by name) premierships are counted in that competition.
Hence Richmond sits on 11 AFL / VFL flags.
It is ******* wrong because in the context of Richmond's "senior" ******* flags the AFL the VFL are the same ******* thing!It's not wrong. Because , as I wrote earlier, I'm listing Richmond's SENIOR flags. And the competition it was played in should be listed with asterix, or footnote. So you and I both agree Richmond has 13 SENIOR flags.
It's one club now and no the magpies when they existed as a separate entity were not the correct decendant the Port in the AFL was.OK, let the Port Adelaide Magpies count them if they want, as they are the correct descendants.
There were NO "pre-VFA flags" because there was no "home-and-away season" major level competition in Victoria prior to the VFA.
Matches played up to and including 1876 were unofficial and randomly organised between club secretaries.