Discussion The VFA premierships debate - should they be recognised as elite level premierships?

[Kwality]

If Port thinks "Champion of Australia" counts then it counts. It might not mean jack to you, me or anyone else but it means something to them.

Again is not about the relative merit of the achievement, it's just a tally of the achievement.

To bring it back to pre 1897 VFA premierships. They are VFA premierships they go on the VFA/VFL tally not on the VFL/AFL tally as they aren't VFL/AFL records they are meaningless to the offical record of the VFL/AFL competition.

VFA flags stsnd alone. Its not rocket science.

 

[Ice-Wolf]

VFA flags stsnd alone. Its not rocket science.

Exactly.

 

[rbartlett]

It is ******* wrong because in the context of Richmond's "senior" ******* flags the AFL the VFL are the same ******* thing!

It's not. 10 of Richmond's flags were under the name VFL. When they won their last it was AFL.
BUT - the name under which they won should be irrelevant. We both agree Richmond have won 13 senior (1st XVIII) flags.

 

[Ice-Wolf]

THE VFL AND AFL ARE THE SAME ******* THING! The letter engraved on the cup is irrelevant as they are the same ******* achievment in the same ******* league!

 

[Kwality]

It's not. 10 of Richmond's flags were under the name VFL. When they won their last it was AFL.
BUT - the name under which they won should be irrelevant. We both agree Richmond have won 13 senior (1st XVIII) flags.

Senior: self serving .. absolute elitist stuff.
Port & Richmond each have 1 x AFL flag, & how ever many State league flags.
The Hawks lead the table with 5 x AFL flags.

 

[Ice-Wolf]

Senior: self serving .. absolute elitist stuff.
Port & Richmond each have 1 x AFL flag, & how ever many State league flags.
The Hawks lead the table with 5 x AFL flags.

No Richmond has 11 VFL/AFL Premierships, Port have 1 VFL/AFL Premiership and the Hawks have 13 VFL/AFL premierships. The VFL and AFL are the same competition just like the SAFA, SAFL and SANFL. Carlton and Essendon lead the VFL/AFL Premiership tally with 16 VFL/AFL premiership.

Again it is just a tally not a determination of relative merit.

 

[Cold Sober]

Let the clubs claim whatever they want, but changing the official history (especially including the pre-VFA flags, which is good for Melbourne but just an awful idea overall) is ridiculous.

Bugger me, someone with common sense.

 

[Kwality]

No Richmond has 11 VFL/AFL Premierships, Port have 1 VFL/AFL Premiership and the Hawks have 13 VFL/AFL premierships. The VFL and AFL are the same competition just like the SAFA, SAFL and SANFL. Carlton and Essendon lead the VFL/AFL Premiership tally with 16 VFL/AFL premiership.

Again it is just a tally not a determination of relative merit.

Port did not ever compete for a VFL flag - the difference between the AFL comp & the State comps (all of them) Is ALL the best play, not just some.
When I hear some apologist claim Polly played only 101 senior games I fall sbout laughing.Stephen Michael didnt play senior footy but was All Aus captain, any independent appraisal .... fair go.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Port did not ever compete for a VFL flag - the difference between the AFL comp & the Stste comps (sll of them) Is ALL the best play, not just some.
When I hear some apologist claim Polly played only 101 senior games I fall sbout laughing.Stephen Michael didnt play senior footy but was All Aus captain, any independent appraisal .... fair go.

It's fair to say that the VFL was the elite comp in Australia throughout the 70's, 80's & 90's, owing to so many of the best Taswegians, Croweaters & Sandgropers coming over to play.....Which is not to say the gap was anywhere near as pronounced as it is today.....The top half dozen players in each of the SANFL & WAFL sides could likely walk into a VFL side back in the day, no worries at all.

 

[Kwality]

It's fair to say that the VFL was the elite comp in Australia throughout the 70's, 80's & 90's, owing to so many of the best Taswegians, Croweaters & Sandgropers coming over to play.....Which is not to say the gap was anywhere near as pronounced as it is today.....The top half dozen players in each of the SANFL & WAFL sides could likely walk into a VFL side back in the day, no worries at all.

No prob with your claim the VFL was the strongest comp & thats why Origin footy evolved, the best of the best.
Was it the 70s when West Aussies captained 4 of the 12 clubs ?

 

[Procrastinator35]

No prob with your claim the VFL was the strongest comp & thats why Origin footy evolved, the best of the best.
Was it the 70s when West Aussies captained 4 of the 12 clubs ?

We all know that both of Adelaide & West Coast Were able to gather together quite competitive sides from the get-go, being given priority access to their own State Code players in their formative years....West Coast made the finals in only their second season, & the Grand Final in only their 5th....They won the Premiership the following year....While Adelaide made finals in only their 3rd season & won the Premiership in their 7th.

 

[Kwality]

Ah the priority, what were the 700 odd players locked away by the established clubs when the new clubs were set up - are you nseriously suggesting the established clubs had duds (by the 100s) on their lists & somehow picking up players outside the locked away is somehow priority - I know this thinking gets a run as an excuse for the failures of established clubs, but please, be hon a new clubs access is anything but priority.

 

[Kwality]

We all know that both of Adelaide & West Coast Were able to gather together quite competitive sides from the get-go, being given priority access to their own State Code players in their formative years....West Coast made the finals in only their second season, & the Grand Final in only their 5th....They won the Premiership the following year....While Adelaide made finals in only their 3rd season & won the Premiership in their 7th.

Examples of why VFL flags are that, AFL flags are something again … stil chuckling over the suggestion Stephen Michael didn't play a senior game but was All Aus captain.

 

[Ice-Wolf]

Examples of why VFL flags are that, AFL flags are something again … stil chuckling over the suggestion Stephen Michael didn't play a senior game but was All Aus captain.

Again because you seem to not get it. A tally is a tally it is not a determination of relative merit. The old VFL and AFL are the same competition it doesn't matter what letter is engraved on the cup it is the same achievement.

You seem to be wanting to make a subjective judgement about each Premiership, it is irrelevant. An award won in a competition counts as a award won in said competition it doesn't matter if the award changed it name, it's compostion or even if they changed how they determined how the award was won. See Fairest & Best, McClelland Trophy etc.

When Stephen Michael was selected as All Australian Captain the pool they picked from wasn't restricted to just the AFL Premiership Competition teams now it is, doesn't mean that Stepehen Michael isn't an All-Australian Captain.

Only those like Richmond are floggy enough to break things up with senior etc. that is a purely subjective.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Ah the priority, what were the 700 odd players locked away by the established clubs when the new clubs were set up - are you nseriously suggesting the established clubs had duds (by the 100s) on their lists & somehow picking up players outside the locked away is somehow priority - I know this thinking gets a run as an excuse for the failures of established clubs, but please, be hon a new clubs access is anything but priority.

I'm not entirely sure that you've read the context of my post in the way I meant it....I was rather more pointing to the strength of those 2 competitions, in being able to furnish 2 teams that were so successful in the AFL environment so quickly.....I would have assumed that was rather stark & obvious from my post....Loosen those interstate rivalry blinkers for a change.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Examples of why VFL flags are that, AFL flags are something again … stil chuckling over the suggestion Stephen Michael didn't play a senior game but was All Aus captain.

There were plenty of elite players back in the day that simply refused to come across & play in the VFL....You can see the strength of the 'go-home' factor still in effect today....But Yes, indeed.....That is no argument against the fact that many of them were just as good & capable footballers as their VFL counter-parts were.

 

[Kwality]

I'm not entirely sure that you've read the context of my post in the way I meant it....I was rather more pointing to the strength of those 2 competitions, in being able to furnish 2 teams that were so successful in the AFL environment so quickly.....I would have assumed that was rather stark & obvious from my post....Loosen those interstate rivalry blinkers for a change.

Accept I came across in my reply not accepting the validity of your point on flsgs, you are quite right - I took the point you made to highlight the difference between the VFL ( & all the State leagues) & the AFL.

 

[Our Game]

The VFA flags the current AFL teams won before 1897 are just that VFA flags as there was no VFL between 1877 and 1897
The clubs should recognize them as such in their histories as all current Victorian AFL clubs and Sydney Swans/South Melb and Brisbane /Fitzroy Lions all started in the VFA.

University was the only VFL club that didnt come from the VFA

 

[Michael Riley]

There are some words here that are very blurry if used historically. 'Elite' is an excellent example, as there was no 'elite' football prior to the AFL era, there was only a concept of 'Senior football'.

I have finished an article on how the word 'Premiership' has changed in its meaning over time.
For example, the first VFA premiership was 1888. There was no official decider before that time.

http://www.boylesfootballphotos.net.au/article137-The-Evolution-of-the-Premiership-1870-1888

 

[Michael Riley]

The argument that the VFL should incorporate the VFA era from 1877-1896 rests on the argument that

"For several decades after the VFL was formed in 1897, those earlier years were celebrated and ‘owned’ by our VFL Founders. But then, they disappeared from our records - for political reasons understandable at the time." - RECLAIMING THE AFL’s FORGOTTEN YEARS

Stepping through the split in 1896 paints a very different picture of events. While I certainly agree that the early VFL years saw celebration of the past, I see nothing about 'owning' it.

A New Association – Formation of the VFL 1896-1897 | Boyles Football Photos

www.boylesfootballphotos.net.au

 

[Pessimistic]

Nothing changes. Theres a second power struggle going on behind the scenes.

never saw the mentality in headworking to make your competition smaller

 

[Supermercado]

Haven't heard much about this recently but I know Colin Carter got the sooks on massively when his proposal was challenged.

 

[Michael Riley]

Looks like Colin Carter is stepping down at Geelong at the end of 2020. Hopefully this means that the political energy behind the idea has dropped off.

 

[Michael Riley]

University was the only VFL club that didnt come from the VFA

University played in the VFA for four seasons but had dropped to the Metropolitan league in the late 1890's
VFA 1885 to 1888
MJFA 1892, 1905-1907
VFL 1908-1914
VJL 1919-1920
MAFA/VAFA 1921+

 

[Procrastinator35]

Haven't heard much about this recently but I know Colin Carter got the sooks on massively when his proposal was challenged.

Well he would, given he's so invested in his team looking better from a historical stand-point, as compared to others, than they really are.

The whole idea just smacks of a one-eyed parochial investment on his behalf….Nothing more, nothing less.