The war on coal

[Taylor]

It's a shame nuclear will never be an option in Australia.

The greens and Labor won't support it on ideological grounds, and the Libs are too in the pocket of the coal lobby to support it.
Policy evaluation is dead in Australia.

Is there any other technology that gets the same stigma from early iterations as nuclear?

The right of Labor would support it, but it would tear the party apart in doing so.

The issue with nuclear remains NIMBYism. We can’t even redevelop inner city housing without resident action groups complaining. Where the hell would we put a nuclear power station?

Ideally, they'd be exactly where the coal plants are.

 

[Mofra]

The right of Labor would support it, but it would tear the party apart in doing so.

The issue with nuclear remains NIMBYism. We can’t even redevelop inner city housing without resident action groups complaining. Where the hell would we put a nuclear power station?

NIMBYism is an issue, because there is a natural loss of power (transmission) if the station is too far away from population centres but there are areas that have previously held declining heavy industry / power generation assets that stand as logical fits e.ge Latrobe valley.

 

[its free real estate]

NIMBYism is an issue, because there is a natural loss of power (transmission) if the station is too far away from population centres but there are areas that have previously held declining heavy industry / power generation assets that stand as logical fits e.ge Latrobe valley.

I think you'd have to extend the concept of 'backyard' to 'nearest metropolitan centre'.

 

[Mofra]

I think you'd have to extend the concept of 'backyard' to 'nearest metropolitan centre'.

The advantage of building it adjacent to old industrial or coal centres is removing the need for new transmission infrastructure which is presumably an expensive exercise.

 

[its free real estate]

The advantage of building it adjacent to old industrial or coal centres is removing the need for new transmission infrastructure which is presumably an expensive exercise.

I don't think you're getting what I'm putting down: Melburnians won't want a nuclear power plant within 500km of their city.

 

[Taylor]

The advantage of building it adjacent to old industrial or coal centres is removing the need for new transmission infrastructure which is presumably an expensive exercise.

If you're currently an electrical producer, what is your stake in the transmission lines? If they are owned by the producers I don't see a reason why they would play ball with someone increasing competition and if the government can be pushed into contributing $100m to build a new nuclear power plant then that makes better business sense than spending $100m more yourself when the current market will let you charge more and more as the reliable generation is shut down.

 

[its free real estate]

Let's be honest, if there is a nuclear power plant built anywhere it will be near Adelaide, because lol Adelaide.

 

[Mofra]

I don't think you're getting what I'm putting down: Melburnians won't want a nuclear power plant within 500km of their city.

It's likely they don't but public perceptions can be changed over time. As it stands we're not even having the debate at a national level which is a shame.

If you're currently an electrical producer, what is your stake in the transmission lines? If they are owned by the producers I don't see a reason why they would play ball with someone increasing competition and if the government can be pushed into contributing $100m to build a new nuclear power plant then that makes better business sense than spending $100m more yourself when the current market will let you charge more and more as the reliable generation is shut down.

It's more about building the generation activity where power plants have already shut down to avoid the need for duplication. I'm viewing this more from a government policy perspective.

It's all just pipe dreams anyway - the political landscape makes it very, very unlikely.

 

[its free real estate]

It's likely they don't but public perceptions can be changed over time. As it stands we're not even having the debate at a national level which is a shame.

I’d love to think so, but people are eschewing vaccines for their children based on pseudoscience, so there’s little hope for new nuclear.

 

[Donakebab]

The real issue with nuclear is the astronomical cost and time it would take to get a plant up and running. It would require an absolute shitload of policy legislation, the creation of a whole new regulatory body (which would also need to develop it's legislation), countless legal battles that would need to be overcome both for the expanded mining/build site/disposal site (landholders, local residents, native title, environmental, etc), the increased security costs, the environmental risks and costs... the list goes on.

So the turn around to get a nuclear plant up and running could be more than 20 years. And then even this aside, it may not even be the most cost effective power generation available as solar, wind, thermal and hydrogen technology continues to develop.





Oh and * coal.

 

[Taylor]

It takes three and a half to five years to build a nuclear power plant.

We would adopt the security protocols from the French.

We could be zero emissions, stable and dependable electrical power Australia wide by 2025.

 

[Hawk Dork]

It takes three and a half to five years to build a nuclear power plant.

We would adopt the security protocols from the French.

We could be zero emissions, stable and dependable electrical power Australia wide by 2025.

In your back yard?

 

[Taylor]

In your back yard?

If it fits, sure.

You know there are nuclear power plants floating around that have bombs on them and shoot at each other?

 

[Taylor]

Especially if I can sell the power back to the grid.

 

[Pie eyed]

It's pretty pointless addressing our Magpie friend.
He seems to think that Abbott Point is in Mackay and everything about Adani et al is about Mackay...and Labor!!

Read the first post you halfwit.
What does the sign say?

Abbott Point? Is that what Tony had to say in support of his kiddy raping mate Pell?

 

[Donakebab]

It takes three and a half to five years to build a nuclear power plant.

We would adopt the security protocols from the French.

We could be zero emissions, stable and dependable electrical power Australia wide by 2025.

This might have been true years ago but time frames have ballooned recently, with the current global average of 9.4 years. Probably the best comparable example to a build time frame in Australia would be the Hinkley plant in the UK. It was announced in 2010, the build commenced in December 2018 and is expected to be completed in 2025-2027 at a cost of over £20b pounds. So a 15 to 17 year time frame in a country that has an existing nuclear industry.

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

This might have been true years ago but time frames have ballooned recently, with the current global average of 9.4 years. Probably the best comparable example to a build time frame in Australia would be the Hinkley plant in the UK. It was announced in 2010, the build commenced in December 2018 and is expected to be completed in 2025-2027 at a cost of over £20b pounds. So a 15 to 17 year time frame in a country that has an existing nuclear industry.

Why is time frame a problem? We've forecast Loy Yang to be out of service by 2045, we've got 25 years to replace that generation capacity so why is nuclear not a fast enough option?

 

[Theseventhhamster]

Coal's awesome if you ignore the massive negative externalities and the fact it's entirely commercially nonviable.

 

[Kram]

Moving on, Sales asked Mr Shorten about the apparent internal conflict within Labor over the Adani coal mine in Queensland.
The Labor Leader himself has sat on the fence, saying only that he will not be beholden to mining companies on one hand or environmental activists on the other. Some of Labor’s candidates, however, have appeared to pick sides.
“If there’s a miner sitting in Rockhampton tonight and she wants to know, ‘Mr Shorten, do you reckon this mine will be a good thing for my industry and for Queensland?’ What would you say to her?” Sales asked.
“I’d say my view on this mine is going to be based on the best science, whether or not it stacks up. And if it stacks up and passes all the scientific tests, I won’t engage in sovereign risk. We won’t arbitrarily upend things,” Mr Shorten said.
Sales pointed out that Mr Shorten had once told he was “a sceptic” and “not a fan” of the project, and asked him whether his opinion had changed since.
“Adani didn’t get the finance, but now they appear to have it. They were talking about a 60 million tonne mine with 10,000 jobs. Now the promises have shrunk,” he said.
“Various Labor candidates and MPs have had differing positions on Adani. What do you say to the suggestion you’ve created the situation by saying one thing to people in regional Queensland and one thing to environmentalists?” said Sales.
“I’d say that’s wrong. Our position’s very clear,” he responded.

 

[medusala]

22 years ago was Kyoto, none of the signatories have made meaningful reductions, and carbon emissions are higher than ever. Good luck buddy!

Apparently the next generation of humans could be the last!

Wont someone think of the children

 

[Frank Bunn]

Coal's awesome if you ignore the massive negative externalities and the fact it's entirely commercially nonviable.

Yeah nah.

Hazelwood was selling electricity for $30/MWh in its last month of operation. When brown coal stations set the price in Victoria they were winning bids at prices at about $13/MWh.The cheapest electricity in the world comes from 30 to 50 year old brown coal plants.

Unreliable power from solar makes the other baseload generators more expensive, adding $30/MWh to gas generators for example. The back up generators have to be there, not earning money while the sun shines. Then they have to charge more to recoup those costs in a shorter working period. Solar already works out more expensive than coal but the costs of the gas generator backups should be also added to the cost to solar.

 

[Theseventhhamster]

Yeah nah.

Hazelwood was selling electricity for $30/MWh in its last month of operation. When brown coal stations set the price in Victoria they were winning bids at prices at about $13/MWh.The cheapest electricity in the world comes from 30 to 50 year old brown coal plants.

Unreliable power from solar makes the other baseload generators more expensive, adding $30/MWh to gas generators for example. The back up generators have to be there, not earning money while the sun shines. Then they have to charge more to recoup those costs in a shorter working period. Solar already works out more expensive than coal but the costs of the gas generator backups should be also added to the cost to solar.

Sure I guess if you ignore that governments built the plants and gifted them to business. New coal is nonviable, otherwise someone would have built a plant sometime in the last decade or so lololol.

 

[Frank Bunn]

Sure I guess if you ignore that governments built the plants and gifted them to business. New coal is nonviable, otherwise someone would have built a plant sometime in the last decade or so lololol.

The largest power producers in China have asked the government to allow for the development of between 300 and 500 new coal power plants by 2030 in a move that could single-handedly jeopardise global climate change targets.

The cap would enable China to build 2 large coal power stations a month for the next 12 years, and grow the country’s capacity by an amount nearly twice the size of Europe’s total coal capacity.

 

[Theseventhhamster]

The largest power producers in China have asked the government to allow for the development of between 300 and 500 new coal power plants by 2030 in a move that could single-handedly jeopardise global climate change targets.

The cap would enable China to build 2 large coal power stations a month for the next 12 years, and grow the country’s capacity by an amount nearly twice the size of Europe’s total coal capacity.

Awesome copy paste reply. After all these years of shilling you're still very s**t at this.

 

[Pie eyed]

The last Labor government tried to solve the problem with FREE pink batts.

Totally wrong.
That was to stimulate the economy and fight the GFC.
Small business owners many of them Liberal Party members and supporters in their haste to make a profit, killed a couple of unskilled workers.
The Libs and a biased media turned it on Labor. It was their fault in that they should never have underestimated the Insulation Industries greed and lack of ethics.