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Opinion The Way Forward

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Pre-injury JMac was great. He was part of a team that was flying this year. In hindsight, he wasn't close enough to full fitness to impact in the GF, so a bit of ahit luck injury-wise.

One thing I will say is that our midfield composition was unbalanced towards the end of the year. We got rid of a bit of hardness by casting Adams out of the side and went more dynamic, but our dynamic options (Warner, Gulden, JMac) weren't getting the job done.

We need another inside mid in there more regularly, whether that's Adams or Sheldrick or someone else. We need the right balance of hardness and flair, we had too little of the former and the latter suffered as a result. Need to get the balance right, and need to spend the season working our who the right people are and what combinations are most effective. And who are our top 2-4 mids that we call on when we need to lift.
 
Some hot takes based on the season and how I'd try to build the list going forward:

DEFENCE

On paper, a defensive unit of McCartin, Melican, Rampe, Blakey, Roberts, Cunningham, Florent and Fox looks rather solid. There are however two big concerns I have here:

1. Injury-proneness of our taller defenders. McCartin started off the season well but after the concussion he suffered against GWS seemed to lose a lot of confidence and it felt as if Melican was covering hard for his lack of form. You have to wonder whether his concussion history (and perhaps also crucically, his brother's....) is harming his potential and also could mean that his long-term future is in jepoardy. Meanwhile as good as Melican was this season he had played just 14 games in the three seasons prior due to injury, while Rampe's body is starting to show signs of failure. The big problem is after these three there's a huge dropoff to the rest (unless we want to play Fox as an undersized KPD, and honestly other than the GF this year he looked a bit off the pace in general) - Francis was serviceable last year but this year felt like a total disaster, it seems that Hamling's name as a KPD has had a line put through him, we delisted Harry Arnold whereas Will Edwards and Patrick Snell are still a fair way off being reliable options at AFL level.
2. Not enough "balanced" small defenders. Blakey, Roberts and Florent are purely attacking options, meanwhile Cunningham is a lockdown player only at this point in his career ala Nick Smith. We need players that can hurt both ways. It might be a case of Mills playing mostly in defence (but he's also needed in the midfield) or teaching Roberts the defensive side of playing off half-back, but I do think we can be burnt by some of the better small forward lines.

In fairness, it usually doesn't get exposed if our midfield is working, but when it doesn't...

MIDFIELD

Speaking of the devil! The big problem with the midfield is that there aren't enough pure inside ball-winners. Heeney can do it but is better suited to a more balanced role where he can use his athleticism and skills to cut up opposition. Warner's one wood is to burst from the stoppage and make things happen rather than actually win it from the source, whereas Gulden's biggest strengths are his decision-making and endurance, which is why he generally started games on a wing instead. Rowbottom is more of a clearance winner but seems best as an O'Keefe/Kirk-style defensive beast rather than a Kennedy-style first-use winner. Whether Mills and/or Adams can help will be interesting - I'm not sure Mills is that big beast that the midfield needs, while Adams can be a first-use player but looked off the boil this year.

FORWARD

The forward line has two alternating issues - there is decent key forward depth but they are all inconsistent players (well Amartey and McDonald are anyway), whereas we just don't have enough small forwards. In theory, I think an Amartey/McDonald/McLean forward line could work as they seem to complement each other quite well - Amartey the stay at home bustling FF, McDonald the mobile, gets up the ground CHF and McLean the marking target as a third tall/second ruck. The problem is that while Amartey's best can look irresistable, apart from the Adelaide game he usually only shows it for about 15 minutes a game at most. If he can find a way to develop an actual tank, he might be the jigsaw piece we need for everything to work. But I have extreme doubts he ever will. Meanwhile McDonald I think might need a bit more confidence and perhaps we might need to push him up the ground from time to time to get him working a bit more. If one of those two clicks then our forward line will look more consistent, if both somehow do then we may become a scoring powerhouse given how good our attacking midfield is. But until then results like the granny will probably continue to happen.

The problem with our small forwards is that the drop-off from Papley and Hayward is currently enormous. At a minimum a pressure small forward is required, the dream would be getting someone with genuine pace.

______________________________

I remember many years ago SF51 (or whatever his name was) talking about the concept of a Best 28, in having 28 players that you could realistically expect to play every game. What does Sydney have? I'd say the 23 that played in the granny have all shown that they can be good players, even if some are very inconsistent. From that 23 we will lose Luke Parker.

Outside the 23? Mills missed the granny through injury, while Adams was dropped on the eve of finals. Beyond them it gets a bit dubious. The only other two that seemed to be in the mix regularly were Sam Wicks and Aaron Francis, and both were very ordinary this year, especially Francis. Cleary showed glimpses in his few chances this year, ditto Sheldrick last year. Corey Warner and Caleb Mitchell have had a few chances but don't look wholly convincing yet and will require more seasoning. Then there's Ladhams, who can have an impact from time to time but isn't really someone you can rely on.

I'd say there's 26 players I'd feel at least somewhat confident in, but the point remains I think the depth is really lacking. At a minimum I'd say we need to target a small forward and an inside mid who we can plug and play, possibly also a taller defensive option.

__________________________________________

Who would I target to fix the options? For an inside mid, my dream (out of those who look like they're gettable) would be Matthew Kennedy. Good inside ball winner, big body, on the outer at Carlton, can also go forward and have an impact. Trouble is he apparently doesn't want to leave Melbourne.

I'd also think about Will Brodie and Will Setterfield. Brodie does have limitations but at his best is a very good first-use winner and had a really good 2022. His issue is that his defensive game and tank isn't the best (to put it mildly) - given Longmire didn't like Tom Mitchell's attitude in this regard how is he going to feel about Brodie? Setterfield's probably more of a defensive style inside player like Rowbottom, but he has had some big numbers from time to time and could be a handy depth option.

Small forwards are a hard one to find as I think a lot of clubs also seem to have genuine deficiencies in their mozzie fleet, but I'd like to have a look at Malcolm Rosas. Has excitment, can find the goals, seems on the outer at the Suns. I think he could complement Papley well and free him up to play some midfield minutes from time to time.

Less confident on tall defenders. Could Ethan Phillips or Denver Grainger-Barras be options? Both likely on the outer given who Hawthorn are bringing in. I don't know whether Phillips has the athleticism to handle AFL full-time but he looked promising enough in his one AFL game, and he was a VFL gun for ages. DGB is a bit more speculative but I know we liked him in 2020 and he could be a good intercepting CHB to complement McCartin and/or Melican if he gets it right.

I'd also like to see us look at some VFL guys to improve the depth. If nothing else, I can see them being hungry and wanting the best from the team.

_________________________________

The end of the day though is that unless the side really wants it, results like this will continue.
 

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GoTheSwannies said:
Apologies in advance for the long post, but a few thoughts from me about the way forward.

If I were coach of the swans in 2025 there's a few things that are a must.

Firstly, as a group, we would have to acknowledge the fact we failed to turn up in the 2024 grand final. But then I'd offer the team a way forward in 2025.

First thing to address would be the challenge of backing up after a grand final belting. It's rare for a reason. A team that makes the grand final and gets belted tend to carry a sense of futility into the following year because they did everything they had to throughout the year and overall performed well, only to get embarrassed at the final stage. Looking ahead at all the hard work required the upcoming year with no guarantee they'll reach the stage they'll be able to atone for their failing last year (the GF), it will break some players psychologically. It will be a hill too high for some.

The way I would address it would be to bring the challenge of grand final retribution into the H&A season. Every game would present each player an opportunity to atone for the GF and prepare for the 2025 grand final.

The whole team would be expected to apply grand final-like pressure to their opponent. Each player would be asked to get as much mongrel into their game as is necessary not to get bullied by their opponent. Acts of courage, determination and desperation would be rewarded, and games where a player doesn't go hard enough, is outgrunted by their opponent or is bullied would come into question and would be subject to demotion (with instructions on what's required in the 2s to win their spot back).

For me, midfield spots are up for grabs at the start of the pre season, and those who are willing to go hardest to win the ball will be rewarded with a starting spot. The season would then present opportunities for those players to prove they're the hungriest mids in the team, and for other hungry mids currently out of the main group to displace them. Whenever the mid numbers are down or the opposition gets a hold of us. We reset for the next quarter and players or asked to perform to premiership quarter standard (turn up the pressure to maximum with the aim of breaking the opposition). The H&A season is an opportunity to identify which of our players can perform at the most challenging moments throughout the season, and they get first crack at the role at the pointy end.

Players who repeatedly fail these tests fall down the pecking order in favour of a "lesser" or younger player who is able to demonstrate they're able to cope with the pressure.

That's obviously only part of the equation, but that would be a starting point for me. With an approach like that it is important to be up front with the players from the start and get buy in. Acknowledge that we ARE facing an uphill battle just to get back into the position to atone for 2024, but that every step along the way will be in service of the goal of not only getting to the grand final, but grabbing it with both hands irrespective of who lines up against us.

Some players will not respond well to the approach, and that's a good thing, because that's a short cut to separating the wheat from the chaff. The players who are really committed to winning a premiership and those who already have a strong internal drive will welcome the opportunity to have everyone on the same page and battle-hardened by the time finals roll around. And those who don't have the work ethic to get on board are part of the problem.

I'm aware that applying premiership pressure isn't possible every quarter of every game, I'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting it needs to be switched on in the 1st quarter, and we need to be able to switch it on if an opponent dominates, or starts pulling back a lead etc. We need to show that we have the killer instinct and we need to be able to turn it on when we need to. And most importantly, we need to figure out which players are capable of being part of that group.

If we have a significant lead, my instructions would be have fun, just make the right decisions and execute, and apply enough pressure not to allow our opponent back in the game. Otherwise, it's back to premiership-quarter mode.
Click to expand...
I like you presenting a positive way to approach the psychological effects of the grand final. Great stuff!
I would add something else. The markers the coaches use to determine B&F need modification to more emphasize defensive effort, pressure and two way running and similar. Scores need to be part of match reviews so they are always front of mind.
Defenders need to be able to finish higher in the B&F and I think a few fans would feel that Rowbottom should have finished higher than he did, maybe Cunningham and JJ too.
 
Chaisa said:
Some hot takes based on the season and how I'd try to build the list going forward:

DEFENCE

On paper, a defensive unit of McCartin, Melican, Rampe, Blakey, Roberts, Cunningham, Florent and Fox looks rather solid. There are however two big concerns I have here:

1. Injury-proneness of our taller defenders. McCartin started off the season well but after the concussion he suffered against GWS seemed to lose a lot of confidence and it felt as if Melican was covering hard for his lack of form. You have to wonder whether his concussion history (and perhaps also crucically, his brother's....) is harming his potential and also could mean that his long-term future is in jepoardy. Meanwhile as good as Melican was this season he had played just 14 games in the three seasons prior due to injury, while Rampe's body is starting to show signs of failure. The big problem is after these three there's a huge dropoff to the rest (unless we want to play Fox as an undersized KPD, and honestly other than the GF this year he looked a bit off the pace in general) - Francis was serviceable last year but this year felt like a total disaster, it seems that Hamling's name as a KPD has had a line put through him, we delisted Harry Arnold whereas Will Edwards and Patrick Snell are still a fair way off being reliable options at AFL level.
2. Not enough "balanced" small defenders. Blakey, Roberts and Florent are purely attacking options, meanwhile Cunningham is a lockdown player only at this point in his career ala Nick Smith. We need players that can hurt both ways. It might be a case of Mills playing mostly in defence (but he's also needed in the midfield) or teaching Roberts the defensive side of playing off half-back, but I do think we can be burnt by some of the better small forward lines.

In fairness, it usually doesn't get exposed if our midfield is working, but when it doesn't...

MIDFIELD

Speaking of the devil! The big problem with the midfield is that there aren't enough pure inside ball-winners. Heeney can do it but is better suited to a more balanced role where he can use his athleticism and skills to cut up opposition. Warner's one wood is to burst from the stoppage and make things happen rather than actually win it from the source, whereas Gulden's biggest strengths are his decision-making and endurance, which is why he generally started games on a wing instead. Rowbottom is more of a clearance winner but seems best as an O'Keefe/Kirk-style defensive beast rather than a Kennedy-style first-use winner. Whether Mills and/or Adams can help will be interesting - I'm not sure Mills is that big beast that the midfield needs, while Adams can be a first-use player but looked off the boil this year.

FORWARD

The forward line has two alternating issues - there is decent key forward depth but they are all inconsistent players (well Amartey and McDonald are anyway), whereas we just don't have enough small forwards. In theory, I think an Amartey/McDonald/McLean forward line could work as they seem to complement each other quite well - Amartey the stay at home bustling FF, McDonald the mobile, gets up the ground CHF and McLean the marking target as a third tall/second ruck. The problem is that while Amartey's best can look irresistable, apart from the Adelaide game he usually only shows it for about 15 minutes a game at most. If he can find a way to develop an actual tank, he might be the jigsaw piece we need for everything to work. But I have extreme doubts he ever will. Meanwhile McDonald I think might need a bit more confidence and perhaps we might need to push him up the ground from time to time to get him working a bit more. If one of those two clicks then our forward line will look more consistent, if both somehow do then we may become a scoring powerhouse given how good our attacking midfield is. But until then results like the granny will probably continue to happen.

The problem with our small forwards is that the drop-off from Papley and Hayward is currently enormous. At a minimum a pressure small forward is required, the dream would be getting someone with genuine pace.

______________________________

I remember many years ago SF51 (or whatever his name was) talking about the concept of a Best 28, in having 28 players that you could realistically expect to play every game. What does Sydney have? I'd say the 23 that played in the granny have all shown that they can be good players, even if some are very inconsistent. From that 23 we will lose Luke Parker.

Outside the 23? Mills missed the granny through injury, while Adams was dropped on the eve of finals. Beyond them it gets a bit dubious. The only other two that seemed to be in the mix regularly were Sam Wicks and Aaron Francis, and both were very ordinary this year, especially Francis. Cleary showed glimpses in his few chances this year, ditto Sheldrick last year. Corey Warner and Caleb Mitchell have had a few chances but don't look wholly convincing yet and will require more seasoning. Then there's Ladhams, who can have an impact from time to time but isn't really someone you can rely on.

I'd say there's 26 players I'd feel at least somewhat confident in, but the point remains I think the depth is really lacking. At a minimum I'd say we need to target a small forward and an inside mid who we can plug and play, possibly also a taller defensive option.

__________________________________________

Who would I target to fix the options? For an inside mid, my dream (out of those who look like they're gettable) would be Matthew Kennedy. Good inside ball winner, big body, on the outer at Carlton, can also go forward and have an impact. Trouble is he apparently doesn't want to leave Melbourne.

I'd also think about Will Brodie and Will Setterfield. Brodie does have limitations but at his best is a very good first-use winner and had a really good 2022. His issue is that his defensive game and tank isn't the best (to put it mildly) - given Longmire didn't like Tom Mitchell's attitude in this regard how is he going to feel about Brodie? Setterfield's probably more of a defensive style inside player like Rowbottom, but he has had some big numbers from time to time and could be a handy depth option.

Small forwards are a hard one to find as I think a lot of clubs also seem to have genuine deficiencies in their mozzie fleet, but I'd like to have a look at Malcolm Rosas. Has excitment, can find the goals, seems on the outer at the Suns. I think he could complement Papley well and free him up to play some midfield minutes from time to time.

Less confident on tall defenders. Could Ethan Phillips or Denver Grainger-Barras be options? Both likely on the outer given who Hawthorn are bringing in. I don't know whether Phillips has the athleticism to handle AFL full-time but he looked promising enough in his one AFL game, and he was a VFL gun for ages. DGB is a bit more speculative but I know we liked him in 2020 and he could be a good intercepting CHB to complement McCartin and/or Melican if he gets it right.

I'd also like to see us look at some VFL guys to improve the depth. If nothing else, I can see them being hungry and wanting the best from the team.

_________________________________

The end of the day though is that unless the side really wants it, results like this will continue.
Click to expand...
Don't necessarily agree with everything but a really good thoughtful post worthy of consideration.
 
Kiama Chris said:
I like you presenting a positive way to approach the psychological effects of the grand final. Great stuff!
I would add something else. The markers the coaches use to determine B&F need modification to more emphasize defensive effort, pressure and two way running and similar. Scores need to be part of match reviews so they are always front of mind.
Defenders need to be able to finish higher in the B&F and I think a few fans would feel that Rowbottom should have finished higher than he did, maybe Cunningham and JJ too.
Click to expand...
Definitely agree with that, the second part of adjusting the game plan or implementing a new focus is identifying the particular markers that represent that change. So that at the end of each match the coaches and players can run through those markers and see how things are tracking and what needs more work.

As you said, "defensive effort, pressure and two way running" are probably a core part of what the team needs to focus on.

We would have stats on what markers lead to a win 100% of the time, lead to a win 90% of the time, or conversely, lead to a loss. That would be the starting point on identifying what a win looks like statistically, and you look at what you need to do as a group to achieve that. The team won't meet the highest benchmark every week, but it should be the aim going into each game. E.g. if we get 100 tackles we're guaranteed to win (obviously oversimplifying it here).

The other thing that falls on the coaches is how each line performs as a group. For example, the forward line. Our forwards coach should be responsible for increasing tackles inside the F50, for meeting a benchmark for how many marks are taken I50 based on how many entries there are. And if the marks aren't taken, that the % of spilled marks that are converted into scores/ goals by the small forwards are at a high clip. That would generate a discussion between the line coach and the head coach about the players needed there to achieve the targets (e.g. talls vs smalls).

I'm sure a lot of this already happens, but the club need to adjust what they see as a successful game.
 
2 weeks on and the only emotion I feel is anger and I refuse to move on.

Heads have to roll. Players or coaches or ideally both. It’s just totally unacceptable no matter which way you cut it.

But is the change we seek possible with the current coaching / playing unit ? There are 2 established ways of creating change; build a burning platform or create burning desire. Well, burning desire clearly is absent with this group so the only option is a burning platform. This means more stick and less carrot, low pressure acts, down you go to VFL, no exceptions, feet to the fire etc

Start rewarding hard ball gets, tackling pressure etc not just the flashy stuff. As long as this entitled ‘doesn’t define us’ crap exists, we are done for. Doesn’t define you, you say ? Snap out of it, you’re only as good as your last game and boy was it a stinker.

I will be sending my thoughts and suggestions on the way forward to the club. Let’s see if I get a response.
 
Let's face it, if this was the English P.L., he's not there anymore.

He's been well paid. Too matey, too complacent.

Who was it hugging Chris Fagan at full time in the GF? -It was Leigh Matthews.
How long do you think some our players would last?

75k members apparently. For how long?
 
The King! said:
I am going to keep my Mcdonald can match his draft status stock , odds looking against me, but I still have hope he can give us 50-60 goals a year
Click to expand...
He most definitely can. He won’t peak for another 5 years.

McLean and Armatey, however, should be peaking now. Worryingly, they probably have.
 

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JackHiscoxWasFast said:
2 weeks on and the only emotion I feel is anger and I refuse to move on.

Heads have to roll. Players or coaches or ideally both. It’s just totally unacceptable no matter which way you cut it.

But is the change we seek possible with the current coaching / playing unit ? There are 2 established ways of creating change; build a burning platform or create burning desire. Well, burning desire clearly is absent with this group so the only option is a burning platform. This means more stick and less carrot, low pressure acts, down you go to VFL, no exceptions, feet to the fire etc

Start rewarding hard ball gets, tackling pressure etc not just the flashy stuff. As long as this entitled ‘doesn’t define us’ crap exists, we are done for. Doesn’t define you, you say ? Snap out of it, you’re only as good as your last game and boy was it a stinker.

I will be sending my thoughts and suggestions on the way forward to the club. Let’s see if I get a response.
Click to expand...
I sent my thoughts to the club after that GF debacle, received nothing back.
 
Kiama Chris said:
I put mine in the current survey. I don't expect a response. They won't know what to say. At best it would be "thanks for sharing your thoughts".
Click to expand...
I'm not sure an honest response is the right thing to do anyway. Need to protect IP.
It is a difficult one. Sometimes honesty is not the best policy.

But people sending them their honest thoughts will have some impact. Hopefully the pressure helps enact positive change where it is needed. The Swans are a community of good people. No need to single out people publicly. That is divisive. Positive change is needed. Hopefully the Swans get enough feedback, they have a hard look at everything, they make the necessary changes and the Swans win the GF in 2025.
 
Last edited:
Swan_Lifer said:
Let's face it, if this was the English P.L., he's not there anymore.

He's been well paid. Too matey, too complacent.

Who was it hugging Chris Fagan at full time in the GF? -It was Leigh Matthews.
How long do you think some our players would last?

75k members apparently. For how long?
Click to expand...


Surely not many drop off as members
 
Day_night_honourer said:
Yeah, dropping membership after reaching minor prems in 2024?...good, bugger off! Find another club.
I expect an increase, even after GF train-wreck.

As for overall supporters, I wonder if Lions will pip us after this year?
(2023 below)

Sydney Swans are the most widely supported AFL club ahead of Collingwood, Brisbane and West Coast - Roy Morgan Research

www.roymorgan.com www.roymorgan.com
Click to expand...

I could see some members opting out of the premiership club maybe... but yeah I would expect an increase in memerships
 

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The King! said:
I could see some members opting out of the premiership club maybe... but yeah I would expect an increase in memerships
Click to expand...
P3 will all get tickets if by way of some miracle we make it. People will support but will be wary of attending the grand final.
 
Can imagine now all us fans at future GF if/when we next attend one. We'll all be bracing ourselves for maximum pain & impact, wondering the size of losing margin and if we can improve on our most recent best of 60 points.

If we won, we'd all be stunned looking at each other going WTF just happened!?! Happy stunned though, unlike the 2014, 2022, 2024 style stunned.
 
Day_night_honourer said:
Can imagine now all us fans at future GF if/when we next attend one. We'll all be bracing ourselves for maximum pain & impact, wondering the size of losing margin and if we can improve on our most recent best of 60 points.

If we won, we'd all be stunned looking at each other going WTF just happened!?! Happy stunned though, unlike the 2014, 2022, 2024 style stunned.
Click to expand...
I’ve attended 2005, 2006, 2012, 2014, 2022 and 2024.

Had tickets for 2016 but knew the umpiring fix would be in so refused to go. Unfortunately I was right. 2006 we didn’t deserve to win, 1-1 v wce felt fair. 2014 was a shocker as was 2022. 2024 takes the cake as the worst ever performance v expectation. The King!, be happy to miss us winning one, only after that will I return. Lots of my mates feel the same way, not going until trust is restored esp if Longmire remains at the helm. New coach may probably go.
 
The King! said:
I could see some members opting out of the premiership club maybe... but yeah I would expect an increase in memerships
Click to expand...
That's my plan, I'm over it. Could never give up my membership but I just can't face another GF disaster and they've finally managed to kill off my enthusiasm.
 
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