Opinion The Way Forward

[Bloods86]

Let's assume there was no indication he wanted to go , would you still be thinking of putting him out there ?

Re: Warner, he can go, unless:

1) He re-commits for at least 2 more years right now. If Freo and Eagles want him, pay up, none of this PSD nonsense from the Eagles.

2) He is told about and is OK with a move to half-forward, taking less CBs. He gets to kick goals and celebrate, but is aware he's spending the summer doing marking and tackling drills.

 

[The King!]

We could trade number 11 he won't ever be higher value and probably has hit his peak

 

[ashep]

There is no Warner trade out there that makes us a better side unless you're assuming that he's 100% gone in '26, AND whatever picks we get back turn into stars.

 

[SSwans2011]

A first attempt at a best 23 prior to any trades, and some thoughts:

FB: Cunningham - Melican - Rampe
HB: Mills - McCartin - Blakey
C: McInerney - Heeney - Gulden
HF: Hayward - McDonald - Campbell
FF: Papley - Amartey - Wicks
Foll: Grundy - Rowbottom - Warner
I/C: Sheldrick - Jordon - Fox - Roberts - McLean
EMGs: Florent - Francis - Cleary - Lloyd - Adams

Backline: Our balance of rebound and ability to defend is completely off at the moment, as Saturday showed. I think moving Mills back and leaving him there will help fix this. Fox also needs to play, and it exclusively should be as a defender. We have a number of players we could ask to play that defensive forward role, but few players capable of doing a good one-on-one defensive role in the backline. Blakey's defending is not currently good enough and this must be his key focus this off-season, but he is our most damaging rebound defender and he has been tried in other positions and all of the evidence points towards defence being his best position. Roberts will also play a role back there and his defensive ability has the biggest scope for improvement given his lack of experience in the backline and in general. We also need wings that have the speed and endurance to push back and defend, hence I've selected McInerney and Campell who have previously played there.

Midfield: We need to win more clearances and perhaps more importantly, we need to do a better job of limiting the damage from opposition clearances. Consequently, we simply cannot have Warner and Gulden in the midfield at the same time. They need to be trading the rover position and half forward flank/wing between one another. Rowbottom and Heeney are clearly our most important midfielders and should have the most CBAs. Hopefully Sheldrick and/or Cleary can break into the team and ease the load for Rowbottom. Heeney is the more difficult one to cover when he has his breaks, because he has a good mix of defensive and offensive orientation. I think Campbell and Jordon are two players we have most suited to playing back-up in that role at present. Perhaps Cleary too, but with Sheldrick coming in, we don't want to go too young in there.

Forwards: I'm not sure how I feel about the three tall set-up. The flaws are very clear, but I'm not actually sure dropping one of them does anything to fix it. I think it's more important that we get the structure and leading patterns right and have smalls. We were getting towelled up by gun key defenders, and that won't change if we go smaller. However, if the AFL changes to a 5-man bench next year, that would be very helpful as it would allow us to have a tall on the bench at almost all times, but still give us flexibility with match-ups if we don't have to drop one of them. Papley and Hayward are no-brainers, and I think having the luxury of Campbell and Heeney rotating on a flank would be very useful. It's a toss-up between Wicks and Cleary, I just went Wicks because of how important he was to us when we were playing our best footy early in the season.

Final thoughts: My thoughts on the forward line are probably the most subject to change depending on the trade period and our links to Stringer. If he comes in, one of Amartey/McLean comes out, but I still really hope we don't get him - I just don't think he fixes our issues there. It's just crucial that they get the structure right. We need more from our key forwards, but I'm still backing them to improve as a trio, and I think it's more important that our supply improves. Brisbane we're waltzing it out of the midfield and either lacing out players on leads, or kicking to favourable one-on-one match-ups, while we bombed the ball to their defenders all day. We could have had prime Buddy playing and it wouldn't have helped given the entries.

I actually think getting the balance right in defence and the midfield next year is the more important thing. We need to be more defensively oriented in the midfield and that means less CBAs for Gulden and Warner. And we generally need to be better at defending next year which means not relying on players like Florent, Lloyd, Campbell, etc to plug gaps in the backline, and instead relying more on our wings to give us that drive out of defence.

Lastly, we simply need to come up with a Plan B for when our corridor game has been shutdown. It's an indictment on the coaches that they weren't able to find one this year. It could be as simple as improving our ability to maintain possession and gradually take ground, which means the wingers/forward flanks/midfielders and probably McDonald of the 3 KPFs need to be working harder to find space when it's locked in our back half.

Overall, not particularly huge changes. I really don't think we're that far off it. We have our flaws, but so too does every team. Those flaws just seem a lot worse because we didn't show up to play on Saturday. It won't take major changes to get us into a position where we can compete again next year.

 

[Ticky009]

There is no Warner trade out there that makes us a better side unless you're assuming that he's 100% gone in '26, AND whatever picks we get back turn into stars.

Take the trade

 

[Kapers]

There is no Warner trade out there that makes us a better side unless you're assuming that he's 100% gone in '26, AND whatever picks we get back turn into stars.

Yes and no, if we trade Warner, it would only be for players to get with said picks.

 

[Kapers]

I think the future is the groundball. Winning the groundball all around the game is what rocketed Hawthorn up the ladder, and contributes to pressure as you always have players around the ball.

I agree with everyone, ditch the three talls, go small, and don't look back.

 

[The King!]

I think the tall forwards if you stick with that works better with a Adams, Wicks or Cleary offering some chase and pressure that was missing in September.

But I hope we are more open to trying different ideas and seeing what works month to month

 

[Dubai Quacker]

I think the tall forwards if you stick with that works better with a Adams, Wicks or Cleary offering some chase and pressure that was missing in September.

But I hope we are more open to trying different ideas and seeing what works month to month

The 3 tall forward set-up doesn’t work in high-pressure games where the mids are curtailed.

I think that’s been proven.

The whole season needs to be fundamentally about winning & preparation of something that’ll serve you well for finals. If we stick with the same setup of McL, McD and Armatey, to me it suggests that once again, we haven’t learned.

Added to that - McLean and Armatey just aren’t that good, whilst McDonald is still a work in progress who may or may not become what we all hope.

There’ll be some who say we rarely have all 3 talls on the field, which is true - but it still means we have one less small/medium forward in the 22.

 

[The King!]

The 3 tall forward set-up doesn’t work in high-pressure games where the mids are curtailed.

I think that’s been proven.

The whole season needs to be fundamentally about winning & preparation of something that’ll serve you well for finals. If we stick with the same setup of McL, McD and Armatey, to me it suggests that once again, we haven’t learned.

Added to that - McLean and Armatey just aren’t that good, whilst McDonald is still a work in progress who may or may not become what we all hope.

Does any forward set up work if the mids are smashed?

I think the being locked into the structure no matter what was the issue this year and we won't ever change it attitude. At times we should have gone smaller or whatever

 

[Dubai Quacker]

Does any forward set up work if the mids are smashed?

I think the being locked into the structure no matter what was the issue this year and we won't ever change it attitude. At times we should have gone smaller or whatever

Problem is - when the mids aren’t dominating (which is inevitable from time-to-time), the long kicks inside 50 are pointless - we can’t mark it & the ball just pings straight back out.

Granted, the effort from the mids was appalling & the defensive structure baffling - but just locking it inside attacking 50 occasionally would help!

Hayward is our only dangerous attacking weapon who also lays a tackle or two.

Sorry - still frustrated.

 

[mcs095]

Problem is - when the mids aren’t dominating (which is inevitable from time-to-time), the long kicks inside 50 are pointless - we can’t mark it & the ball just pings straight back out.

Granted, the effort from the mids was appalling & the defensive structure baffling - but just locking it inside attacking 50 occasionally would help!

Hayward is our only dangerous attacking weapon who also lays a tackle or two.

Sorry - still frustrated.

I'd love Bolton to be employed to be there every day in pre-season (or get Kirky doing it) and teaching the lot of them to tackle properly, and not leaving until they all can. Some of the attempted tackles on Saturday were utterly pathetic.

We definitely need more speed in the forward line to create additional pressure - even at the cost of one of the three talls going out. Cleary imo, if he has a good pre-season, should be there from Rd 1, given a clear role and be allowed to build into it - even with ups and downs. His few games he played he showed he had real potential.

 

[SSwans2011]

I think the 3 KPFs can work if they are surrounded by quick and dangerous smalls that can get on the move to draw their men away from the contest and provide elite forward heat when the ball hits the deck.

Adams was really just playing there to give us another midfielder and Parker was really just a fourth key forward in terms of how he was playing.

Have the 3 keys and Hayward and Papley, then one of Cleary/Wicks with Campbell, Heeney, Sheldrick, Warner, McInerney and Gulden rotating through there and the forward line will be far more dangerous. Jordon to play lockdown roles as required, just don't play Fox in that defensive forward role ever again for the love of God. Speed should be a prerequisite for all players that spend any time playing forward next year outside of the three talls.

 

[Kbroome]

I think the 3 KPFs can work if they are surrounded by quick and dangerous smalls that can get on the move to draw their men away from the contest and provide elite forward heat when the ball hits the deck.

Adams was really just playing there to give us another midfielder and Parker was really just a fourth key forward in terms of how he was playing.

Have the 3 keys and Hayward and Papley, then one of Cleary/Wicks with Campbell, Heeney, Sheldrick, Warner, McInerney and Gulden rotating through there and the forward line will be far more dangerous. Jordon to play lockdown roles as required, just don't play Fox in that defensive forward role ever again for the love of God. Speed should be a prerequisite for all players that spend any time playing forward next year outside of the three talls.

The problem with that is we don't have those 4-5 tackles per game small forwards e.g. Wicks was like 2, Cleary around the same (and isn't a small forward in reality). Therefore we probably need to get more speed out of a smaller third tall e.g. a marking medium forward

 

[caesar88]

Campbell, Florent & Cleary all must be in our forward line alongside Papley next year. It almost has to be non-negotiable.

 

[sataris]

Campbell, Florent & Cleary all must be in our forward line alongside Papley next year. It almost has to be non-negotiable.

Florent's already been tried as a forward and was severely lacking.

 

[caesar88]

Florent's already been tried as a forward and was severely lacking.

Not much since his first year though. Has put a lot of size on and has about 150 games more experience now. Later in the year he looked pretty good hitting the scoreboard and winning ground balls at full pace inside 50.

 

[KingV23]

Campbell, Florent & Cleary all must be in our forward line alongside Papley next year. It almost has to be non-negotiable.

If you like the three tall set up, where do you fit them in along with Hayward?

 

[zyzzbruh]

Campbell, Florent & Cleary all must be in our forward line alongside Papley next year. It almost has to be non-negotiable.

agreed minus florent. A forward mix of Campbell, Cleary, Papley, Hayward, Amartey/Mclean, Logan, Wicks would be as dynamic as what we could get it. I do think that one of Amartey or Mclean needs to be ditched tho, other than giving grundy a break they're just not giving us any consistency.

2 Years ago i thought Mclean was on his way to becoming a real player, but he just hasn't continued, his contested work as a forward is too static. I think he'd be the guy to look at getting some trade value for. As much as what Amartey shits me at times he is still the better contested player. And we'd still be tall enough with Amartey, Logan and Hayward down there. btw the strength and conditioning team should be looking to beef Logan up big time this off season.

 

[Jeffers]

I reckon 3 tall forwards can work if they are athletic, aggressive and competitive.
Amartey still has potential to be one but needs to follow up on this year. Logan still improving as long as he gets stronger. McLean is the one we need to turf. i reckon he’s hit his ceiling.

 

[Kiama Chris]

Problem is - when the mids aren’t dominating (which is inevitable from time-to-time), the long kicks inside 50 are pointless - we can’t mark it & the ball just pings straight back out.

Granted, the effort from the mids was appalling & the defensive structure baffling - but just locking it inside attacking 50 occasionally would help!

Hayward is our only dangerous attacking weapon who also lays a tackle or two.

Sorry - still frustrated.

Actually this is a very serious point.
If you look at the forward structure when we attack there are three basic setups:
1) 6:6:6 at CBs where sometimes we have two and sometimes three talls. If we get a clean clearance we do OK with someone leading, often Papley, but often Amartey and sometimes another tall. Not really a problem AS LONG AS WE GET THE CLEAN CLEARANCE.
2) On the fast break to a relatively empty forward line. Early in the season we did well on these with any of our forwards getting out the back but oppos woke up to us and planted a wicketkeeper or two and this pretty much dried up.
3) The slow build-up. This is where the problem really lies. Our talls are OK but not good enough to do much in congestion. It isn't about having more or fewer IMO but about them being better at their job. Only Papley is buzzy enough to take advantage of the ground balls and there's no-one else to add attacking pressure. We rely on our midfielders to do that. It worked OK until the GF when everyone disappeared up their fundamental orifices.
During the season we were the best attacking and defensive team so we're not a million miles away (except between the ears it seems).
There are no magic bullet KPFs out there so we need to improve the ones we have, tinker with our structure (Cleary, Wicks, Hanily, Konstanty) and practice what we need to do until it becomes second bloody nature.

 

[zyzzbruh]

I reckon 3 tall forwards can work if they are athletic, aggressive and competitive.
Amartey still has potential to be one but needs to follow up on this year. Logan still improving as long as he gets stronger. McLean is the one we need to turf. i reckon he’s hit his ceiling.

Yep. Would leave us with Amartey doing the secondary ruck work but as long as Logan can beef up, he and Hayward would still be tall enough when Amartey is required to chop Grundy out.

 

[JackHiscoxWasFast]

New sports psychologist and new lawyer should be the 2 least contentious changes.

 

[Adnico26Parker]

One of the first appointments they need to make is Ron Inness’ replacement (do we know if he’s taking anyone with him?)

 

[SwansLifer]

Who would people be willing to trade who has value for a trade that improved the team, say from the 23 on the weekend excluding Parker who is probably off.

Would go with Warner to WCE.
Would also look at "selling high" on Amartey. Not sure what we could get for him. If Melbourne don't go KPF early then maybe an F2 or F3. Think he would have some currency with St Kilda as well.