The Way Forward

[monty1104]

Recruitment has been a massive problem.

1999- 2001 was an insipid effort, only 2 players remain on the list from that 3 year period:- Hille and Welsh are nothing to get too exited about either.

As for 2002 onwards, only Stanton, Monfries have had a sustained impact, with Ryder and Winderlich just hitting their straps.

I thikn 2006 was a good year for us at the draft table, but it was for most clubs.

Welsh is one of our best players, and has been for the past 2 years. FFS, what else does he have to do to earn respect on here.

 

[Dr Moose]

i dont think our gameplan is the problem either, we do attack when we get an opening, its just that it rarely happens.. we chip because teams flood and it is a way of combating flooding.. we won the first few games because our disposal was great and we didnt have many turnovers. what i saw yesterday was woeful disposal.... ialso think we have a very poor work rate in our midfeild......

Our gameplan was fine for the first 20 yrs. It almost seems like Sheeds is cutting off his nose to spite his face on this one. He hates flooding, and bemoans coaches who employ it. But now that they all seem to, we are being left behind. It's going to be generational change, and either we adapt or our midfielders work twice as hard manning up on opponents to take the advantage out their tactics. Much easier for the Swans or WCe to stick to their principles on this one, but against North, geelong, Bulldogs we're going to get crucified

 

[Merv]

Our gameplan was fine for the first 20 yrs. It almost seems like Sheeds is cutting off his nose to spite his face on this one. He hates flooding, and bemoans coaches who employ it. But now that they all seem to, we are being left behind. It's going to be generational change, and either we adapt or our midfielders work twice as hard manning up on opponents to take the advantage out their tactics. Much easier for the Swans or WCe to stick to their principles on this one, but against North, geelong, Bulldogs we're going to get crucified

Surley you jest.
Our gameplan has changed more times in 20 years than anyone could remember.

 

[Merv]

Welsh is one of our best players, and has been for the past 2 years. FFS, what else does he have to do to earn respect on here.

More than what he has done over the last 2 years.

He has improved imo, now that he plays forward, but to be named as one of our best players?

 

[monty1104]

He would be one of the first picked every week. What i was meaning was one of our most important players.

 

[Audemars Piguet]

He would be one of the first picked every week. What i was meaning was one of our most important players.

Still, it doesnt change the fact that our drafting since 99 has been horrible.

For mine, the way forward is to invest a lot more in the recruitment process.

 

[Shane Hird]

The way forward is this.........



Wait and hope.





We have no choice but to hope and wait for certain players wake up and start performing like elite footballers.....we have made our choices with Watson,Dyson,KB,C.Johns,Winderlich,Laycock and Camporeale at drafts&trading in the past 5 years and we have to live with them atm. Painful to bear,but its the price we have to pay for sheer bad luck with getting some ordinary players.


I mean,how do you explain the good luck WCE have experienced lately with their replacement players in the midfield? Rosa,Hurn and last years Sandover medalist Matt Priddis,have just slotted in very nicely,very quickly without fuss or bother at the house of Coke and Ice.

You wouldn't have believed that 2 years ago (when they unleashed the fab 7 of Judd,Cuz,Braun,Fletcher,Stenglein,Emberly and Kerr) that they could find three more gun on-ballers to replace the older fab 7 members (and the one that turned out a drug addict) in such short time?


Look at Port. Watching Daniel Pearce drill beautiful passes into his forward line and kick classy goals almost brings me to tears. Why can't we have a recruit or 3rd year player like that?


It started in the last half of that Carlton game. And its continuing.
As soon as the pressure meter goes up and the other team runs flat out in numbers..we can't catch up.

Watson can't sprint,Dyson gets lost in his own universe when under pressure and gives the ball up,Pev can't keep up,Hird can't either,Lovett is just not getting into the right spots to recieve the ball......we have big problems.


The biggest problem imo.....and I said it all summer and nobody agreed.....is that we are f----d at CHB.

Mcphee is supposed to dominate and own that area. Wheres the All Austarlian form gone......he's in big trouble.

The effort he put into trying to spoil Franklin's 5 marks in a row was enough for me to scream with rage. Then he gets moved on to another tall forward and lets him mark and goal with-in 3 minutes!!

He cost us that match....weak,ordinary efforts.

We are not tackling enough and when we do its not hard enough.

Monfries is struggling to run amongst our MF that constantly loses the ball. He needs more time in the FL to learn how to win the ball at all costs (Kerr type of skills) He has it in him,but is been thrown to the wolves atm.


Its back to the drawing board for Sheeds I'm afraid. Bring in Bachar,Lonergan,Hislop etc.. and give them a run soon....and give Davey a 4 year contract

We are not gunna win a flag this year so we might as well plan for the near future. Its caught up to us already.

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

It started in the last half of that Carlton game. And its continuing.
As soon as the pressure meter goes up and the other team runs flat out in numbers..we can't catch up.

Correct.

The biggest problem imo.....and I said it all summer and nobody agreed.....is that we are f----d at CHB.

Completely wrong. We have had Fletch, Ryder and Mcphee rotating there and they have been fantastic considering the lack of midfiled pressure and number back.

It was a mistake to play our best rebounder in Mcphee on Buddy. Coaches got the matchups and tactics all wrong.

Mcphee is supposed to dominate and own that area. Wheres the All Austarlian form gone......he's in big trouble.

Apart from yesterday Mcphee has been fantastic.

The effort he put into trying to spoil Franklin's 5 marks in a row was enough for me to scream with rage. Then he gets moved on to another tall forward and lets him mark and goal with-in 3 minutes!!

He is never going to be a KPP defender. Have we not learnt that over the last few years? Once again coaches to blame for playing him on Franklin when we have 2 of the best full backs of all time playing.

He cost us that match....weak,ordinary efforts.

Outcoached and not enough running quality is what cost us the game. Pretty obvious.

 

[Shane Hird]

kelvin,all I want Mcphee to do is get to the contests and punch (mark would be better) the ball away from opponents more often.

He is a tall,aggressive defender after all..."re-bounder" or not,he's got to be more consistent.

 

[stander]

Our President publicly stated today that we have suffered from complacency as club.I
quote]

And there certainly was no complacency about the Hawks standing the mark on Saturday. It nearly brought me to tears seeing how aggressive they were in one small facet of the game, that used to be our trademark back in the mid 80's. And who is the assistant down at Glenferrie? Damien Hardwick. Dual premiership player, assistant coach, good communicator, tough as nails. The future is bright indeed.

 

[ant555]

Our President publicly stated today that we have suffered from complacency as club.I
quote]

And there certainly was no complacency about the Hawks standing the mark on Saturday. It nearly brought me to tears seeing how aggressive they were in one small facet of the game, that used to be our trademark back in the mid 80's. And who is the assistant down at Glenferrie? Damien Hardwick. Dual premiership player, assistant coach, good communicator, tough as nails. The future is bright indeed.

The standing the mark thing is very valid. Not only does it make them look keen and interested they also manage to creep up a meter or so without the unpire really noticing. It is one of the many small things that they do becasue they play 100% for the coach who has backed them through the rough times when they started their careers. Pretty sure a number of our boys are playing more for themselves currently and not for the coach.

 

[stander]

The standing the mark thing is very valid. Not only does it make them look keen and interested they also manage to creep up a meter or so without the unpire really noticing. It is one of the many small things that they do becasue they play 100% for the coach who has backed them through the rough times when they started their careers. Pretty sure a number of our boys are playing more for themselves currently and not for the coach.

The other thing that rankles me is all the huffing and puffing and effort we expend to inch our way from full back to the centre via a procession of 15 metre short passes, and then bomb it long, or miss a long range target. The rebound is then destructive.

 

[bomberstomake8]

The standing the mark thing is very valid. Not only does it make them look keen and interested they also manage to creep up a meter or so without the unpire really noticing. It is one of the many small things that they do becasue they play 100% for the coach who has backed them through the rough times when they started their careers. Pretty sure a number of our boys are playing more for themselves currently and not for the coach.

i agree, it frustrates me that that is how it is... after all sheedy and hird have given the club you would think the younger boys would realise that and put in 110% every game...it is potentially both their last years and i cant beleive the boys are letting them go out this way...

 

[DaSawx]

Yeah, I think the group needs to be sat down and told this could be some certain people's last year, not that you should really be told to be motivated, some teams don't need help getting motivated every week.

 

[Smokin]

McPhee has always looked his worst when we have required him to take a key forward. But, he was hardly totally to blame on Saturday. Franklin had one of those games from heaven, and no matter who we had on him it wouldnt have made much of a difference.

Overall, IMO we can be pretty happy with our backline and forwardline this season. I cant be criticle at all. The forwardline, again with a midfield belted and we had nearly half the inside 50's, still managed to score around 100 points, and the backline, while under seige, I thought did well - they were just given no chance to contain the hawks.

In relation to the game, it was won and lost in two short periods. 10 minutes in the 2nd where Franklin destroyed us, turning a 20 odd point lead into a 20 odd point deficit. Then again towards the end of the 3rd, where we had Davey dropping short a kick online to just about give us the lead (by memory), then we turned off and got smashed and conceeded many goals very quickly. If you look at it, the rest of the game was fairly even. The first quarter was ours, we allowed a couple extremely cheap goals get them too close, and outside of those periods, we battled farily well.

Im not as worried with this loss as many are, becuase all Sat did was reiterate our problem with the midfield. Our 3 losses have looked eerily similar, and making it somewhat of a nighmare as we cant seem to do anything about it.

The first and foremost problem with the midfield is not class, pace, skills etc - it is the blue collar element of it. We simply dont have it.

Car, Coll and Haw were all prepared to work extremely hard going forwards AND defensively, working extremely hard to be accountable, put pressure on us and too committed for us in a contest.

We have shown, and showed these teams, that if you let us run and give us space we will kick goals quickly.

It seems that teams decide to go man on man when we have the ball, yet we are either directed not to, or are not committed enough to go man on man when we dont have the ball. We are effictely playing against the tide all the time, allowing them space when they have it, and playing into a clogged mess when we have it.

If teams are going one on one with us, when a turnover occurs, surely we can turn around and man up on the person picking us up.

A few we did pickup men, but they were allowed to find a little space just too easily. For example Crawford a couple of time was manned by (by Hef at least once), yet in 2 seconds he was allowed too much space, and easily found space at around half forward and was used. We can seem to find that next link from half back to half forward.

While is is a bad problem and is being exploited, it is definitley fixable in time.

Ive said it all season, if we can simply break even in the guts, giving our forwards and backs a fighting chance, we will win many more games than we lose. Our forwardline and backlines are potent, up against anybody in the competition. We dont need to have a dominating midfield, simply one which can at least break even.

However, right now we are giving them no chance whatsoever.

North are as blue collar as it gets, and are actually playinig good football this season. I feel we are going to struggle and struggle hard Friday night. We must start addressing this problem, as it is glaringly obvious teams will use this blueprint, and we seem to have been left dazzed and confused 3 times ina row now.

 

[Smokin]

The other thing that rankles me is all the huffing and puffing and effort we expend to inch our way from full back to the centre via a procession of 15 metre short passes, and then bomb it long, or miss a long range target. The rebound is then destructive.

Yep, we seem to be looing for that 90-10 or 100-0 option, and not prepared to go to the 60-40 option.

We then move it too slowly, allow the opposition to kill the game, and are forced to kick to a 50-50 or worse, being out numbered.

Gets back to the fact we have a few too many guys who arent good enough or committed enough at contested footy, and not prepared to put in the blue collar yards needed of them.

they all seem to love running one way, but not the other.

 

[DaSawx]

After a loss like that we just need to be prepared to come out to tackle hard and run hard, get some friggin urgency back about us and get it into the F50.

 

[Pevers-Legend]

McPhee has always looked his worst when we have required him to take a key forward. But, he was hardly totally to blame on Saturday. Franklin had one of those games from heaven, and no matter who we had on him it wouldnt have made much of a difference.

Overall, IMO we can be pretty happy with our backline and forwardline this season. I cant be criticle at all. The forwardline, again with a midfield belted and we had nearly half the inside 50's, still managed to score around 100 points, and the backline, while under seige, I thought did well - they were just given no chance to contain the hawks.

In relation to the game, it was won and lost in two short periods. 10 minutes in the 2nd where Franklin destroyed us, turning a 20 odd point lead into a 20 odd point deficit. Then again towards the end of the 3rd, where we had Davey dropping short a kick online to just about give us the lead (by memory), then we turned off and got smashed and conceeded many goals very quickly. If you look at it, the rest of the game was fairly even. The first quarter was ours, we allowed a couple extremely cheap goals get them too close, and outside of those periods, we battled farily well.

Im not as worried with this loss as many are, becuase all Sat did was reiterate our problem with the midfield. Our 3 losses have looked eerily similar, and making it somewhat of a nighmare as we cant seem to do anything about it.

The first and foremost problem with the midfield is not class, pace, skills etc - it is the blue collar element of it. We simply dont have it.

Car, Coll and Haw were all prepared to work extremely hard going forwards AND defensively, working extremely hard to be accountable, put pressure on us and too committed for us in a contest.

We have shown, and showed these teams, that if you let us run and give us space we will kick goals quickly.

It seems that teams decide to go man on man when we have the ball, yet we are either directed not to, or are not committed enough to go man on man when we dont have the ball. We are effictely playing against the tide all the time, allowing them space when they have it, and playing into a clogged mess when we have it.

If teams are going one on one with us, when a turnover occurs, surely we can turn around and man up on the person picking us up.

A few we did pickup men, but they were allowed to find a little space just too easily. For example Crawford a couple of time was manned by (by Hef at least once), yet in 2 seconds he was allowed too much space, and easily found space at around half forward and was used. We can seem to find that next link from half back to half forward.

While is is a bad problem and is being exploited, it is definitley fixable in time.

This has been my biggest beef. How is the opposition can run freelyt yet we are always under pressure. This problem has been devleoping for years - since about 2001 when we were godd and could afford to zone off our opponent. Problem was and is, we aren't that good. We don;t work hard enough.

How many UNCONTESTED marks did Franklin have? Their key player taking uncontested marks yet Campbell scrubber Brown made Lucas earn every kick. We don;t have the desparation required to beat commited teams.

We need to play more young and eager players in the middle. Monfries, Lonergan, Houli, Hislop, Jetta, Dempsey - they all need to get consistent runs through there. Not all at once, but throughout the year. We draft midfielders - play them in a back or forward pocket for 2-3 years then wonder why they have forgotten how to play inthe middle. Draft midfielders - play them there from the get go. The last guy we did that with is Stanton and he is our best young midfielder.

Sheedy has to take a lot of the blame - they say he is very relaxed and always positive - perhaps that is why we are so complacent - he has conned us into thinking average perfromances are ok. I mean, look at Brisabne and Port -who should be behind us in rebuilding.

I want a Hird or a Voss type character to coach us next year - not the superstar but what they represent - that losing is unacceptable - the mindset of being the best and working the hardest to be the best.

TD for coach!!

 

[Merv]

Guys, some fantastic analysis in this thread, and although some of our views may vary, all in all we are on the same page.

I won't cover what already has been said, but another thing we do is kick it 40-50 mtrs BACKWARDS to find a free target.....

Due to the WORKRATE and TIME allowed to our opposition, this brings us undone.

Instead of looking for a leading target in the forward 50,which is full of the opposition players, the player with the ball, say on the wing, kicks it back to CHB.

The opposition then just push out 3-4 players and make it so we then cant even get a target on the wing anymore.

Essentially we just concede ground and put ourselves under even more pressure, turn it over, and you know the rest.

I feel we have some players with very little HEART and i am almost, ( I said almost stander ) ready to concede it's time to get a new coach.

 

[foj1]

Perspective is a wonderful thing.
We finished 15th last year. We will improve a couple of spots on that I reckon.
Our recruiting at lasts years draft was terrific by the looks of things. My only complaint would be that if the coaches knew they were going to play Ryder as a key back then we should have drafted Leuenberger instead of Gumby who is also going to be a wonderful player as our ruck stocks are poor.
we cannot afford to be putting more games into Bolton, Heffernan, camporeale. It is time to play Houli, Hislop, Lonergan, Hocking, Jetta. It hasnt hurt Collingwood playing 3 first gamers.
Our midfield is simply not up to it. Stanton and JJ are competitive AFL midfielders but we fall away quickly because the others have deficiencies. Peverill-pace&disposal watson-pace, disposal by foot & hardness at the contest and opposition body Dyson- ability to run all day, accountability, hardness at contest. If you rate the rest of our mids the same flaws are quickly apparent.
We need to nail another draft. Isnt it interesting that we ruled selwood out pretty early last year? Our focus needs to be on midfielders with our FIRST PICKS!!!!!!! Trent Cotchin should be a priority. The depth isnt quite the same as last year as far as the draft. We also need to acquire a quality young ruck.
Kruezer will go number 1 but McEvoy and Putt look to be two who we would have to consider. Perhaps we will need to trade a Johns type to get another fist round pick. (WC may give up pick 15-16 to get him)
When is the last time we nailed a great free agent? I thought it was an indictment on the club that we missed out on Rischitelli who is a local boy, barracked for the bombers who lives interstate. Interestingly Lloyd commented on this fact. We should have salary cap room to become players at the end of the year.
Lastly its time for a change. KS has been awesome for the club but I think with a developing list the time is right. I may be in a minority but I hope we stay clear of the Harvey/Shaw combo. Hardwick would be an interesting choice as would Longmire and Chris Bond. Lets give a young coach the opportunity to coach a great club with a developing list. The same as we did in 1981!!!!!!!!!!

 

[AJ_2000]

Norf have no forward targets and are ordinary, but we're bound to play someone into form for 4 quarters.

So very true.... I love this quote.

Rocca anybody? He was on the scrapheap a few years ago until Big Henno got a hold of him and revitalised his carrer.

 

[monty1104]

If we eally want to go forward, we need to look at dropping guys like JJ, Heff, MJ, Peverill and even Hird and Fletcher. Now I know this won't happen, but the reality is that these guys are not the future. We ned to expend our energies on players like Dyson, Winderlich, Dempsey, Hislop, Houli, Reimers, Lee, Johns, Gumbelton, Hocking and McKinnon. These are the guys that will get us to our next premiership. If we are serious about rebuilding then these guys should be getting plenty of games under their belts over the next 2 years. By that stage, Stanton, Watson, Welsh, McPhee, Monfries and Ryder should all be in the prime of their careers, or there abouts.

The problem with this plan is that we have to basically concede that this year is a write off, probably next year too. Get in a new coach, give the captaincy to someone who plays every game, and is always hard at the ball to set an example to the young guys (someone like Welsh or Stanton would be ideal) A new coach will bring a new perspective to the club and hopefully some new and winning ideas. Also, hopefully he can weed out Sheedy's favourites who wont seem to go away (Bradley, Bolton)

 

[ant555]

If we eally want to go forward, we need to look at dropping guys like JJ, Heff, MJ, Peverill and even Hird and Fletcher. Now I know this won't happen, but the reality is that these guys are not the future. We ned to expend our energies on players like Dyson, Winderlich, Dempsey, Hislop, Houli, Reimers, Lee, Johns, Gumbelton, Hocking and McKinnon. These are the guys that will get us to our next premiership. If we are serious about rebuilding then these guys should be getting plenty of games under their belts over the next 2 years. By that stage, Stanton, Watson, Welsh, McPhee, Monfries and Ryder should all be in the prime of their careers, or there abouts.

The problem with this plan is that we have to basically concede that this year is a write off, probably next year too. Get in a new coach, give the captaincy to someone who plays every game, and is always hard at the ball to set an example to the young guys (someone like Welsh or Stanton would be ideal) A new coach will bring a new perspective to the club and hopefully some new and winning ideas. Also, hopefully he can weed out Sheedy's favourites who wont seem to go away (Bradley, Bolton)

Or we could look at what Brisbane/Port are doing and keep a mix of experience and youth. JJ and Pev need to be the side with the kids. You need that little bit of experience.
And we could play Bradley as a forward and see what he can do. Has been very good at it so far.

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

If we eally want to go forward, we need to look at dropping guys like JJ, Heff, MJ, Peverill and even Hird and Fletcher. Now I know this won't happen, but the reality is that these guys are not the future. We ned to expend our energies on players like Dyson, Winderlich, Dempsey, Hislop, Houli, Reimers, Lee, Johns, Gumbelton, Hocking and McKinnon. These are the guys that will get us to our next premiership. If we are serious about rebuilding then these guys should be getting plenty of games under their belts over the next 2 years. By that stage, Stanton, Watson, Welsh, McPhee, Monfries and Ryder should all be in the prime of their careers, or there abouts.

The problem with this plan is that we have to basically concede that this year is a write off, probably next year too. Get in a new coach, give the captaincy to someone who plays every game, and is always hard at the ball to set an example to the young guys (someone like Welsh or Stanton would be ideal) A new coach will bring a new perspective to the club and hopefully some new and winning ideas. Also, hopefully he can weed out Sheedy's favourites who wont seem to go away (Bradley, Bolton)

Dude... please. Lets not turn into Richmond.

You are killing me!

As Ant mentioned see Brissie and Port as examples this year.. Adelaide and Sydney a few years back.

 

[Merv]

If we eally want to go forward, we need to look at dropping guys like JJ, Heff, MJ, Peverill and even Hird and Fletcher. Now I know this won't happen, but the reality is that these guys are not the future. We ned to expend our energies on players like Dyson, Winderlich, Dempsey, Hislop, Houli, Reimers, Lee, Johns, Gumbelton, Hocking and McKinnon. These are the guys that will get us to our next premiership. If we are serious about rebuilding then these guys should be getting plenty of games under their belts over the next 2 years. By that stage, Stanton, Watson, Welsh, McPhee, Monfries and Ryder should all be in the prime of their careers, or there abouts.

The problem with this plan is that we have to basically concede that this year is a write off, probably next year too. Get in a new coach, give the captaincy to someone who plays every game, and is always hard at the ball to set an example to the young guys (someone like Welsh or Stanton would be ideal) A new coach will bring a new perspective to the club and hopefully some new and winning ideas. Also, hopefully he can weed out Sheedy's favourites who wont seem to go away (Bradley, Bolton)

As much as you are on the right track to some extent, we can't do it during the year.

We need to reward young talent and give them every opportunity once they have shown they are earned a spot.

As for the older players, and proven duds get rid of them at the end of the year, and recruit nothing but young players, and try to lure a young midfielder in the pre season draft, unlikely i know.

As for those 2 as captains, sorry i could't disagree more