The way Richmond revolutionised footy ...

[YeOldTiger]

i reckon it started deep inside the yet to be formed nucleus of an idea manifesting as a tea cosy beanie worn by an angel impersonating a homeless junkie behind the old dimmeys on swan street in witchmond, helbourne, astralia, earth 666 back in vegemite and avocado on toast intersecting with the particular nuanced tempo of a sleeping vulvic emanation called the port game in the wet when damien satan's son realised you can't make apples out of arsenic and the best way to goal is forward march you bright young sacrifices for the greater profits of warmongering and scapegoatitis- the affliction of the damned if you don't have the skills to go sideways go ahead motherhugger go forwards and embrace the chaoos cos order aint your freaking thing.

Took the words right out of my mouth !

 

[Kapital city TIGER]

i reckon it started deep inside the yet to be formed nucleus of an idea manifesting as a tea cosy beanie worn by an angel impersonating a homeless junkie behind the old dimmeys on swan street in witchmond, helbourne, astralia, earth 666 back in vegemite and avocado on toast intersecting with the particular nuanced tempo of a sleeping vulvic emanation called the port game in the wet when damien satan's son realised you can't make apples out of arsenic and the best way to goal is forward march you bright young sacrifices for the greater profits of warmongering and scapegoatitis- the affliction of the damned if you don't have the skills to go sideways go ahead motherhugger go forwards and embrace the chaoos cos order aint your freaking thing.

thats word for word what I said earlier

 

[tigerisland]

Dare you to put your post on the MB.

It’s never spoken about but I believe it would never have happened without Shane Edwards. He has always been really efficient with disposal and never gone backwards.
I am only guessing but I think the other mids figured out why he was so good and started playing like him. I don’t think there was much strategy. Dimma freed the players up to attack and they followed Edwards lead.

 

[TiggyTig]

Tall poppy.

Take it as a badge of honour. Hated because we won too much

Don't know about that. Hawthorn were celebrated as are most teams when they win it, except for Richmond..

 

[joe444]

I'm a bit scratchy on it and I could never be bothered watching old matches but I reckon Geelong teams in your heyday used to keep the ball moving any way possible up the middle and were always looking to give it off one more time inside the forward 50. Often turning it over cos they kicked it one time too many.

We, of course, had a different coach then. Geelong in 07 and 09 were very similar to Richmond a decade later. We recruited a ruckman (ironic for you guys, of course), realised we needed a defensive forward (in our case, Rooke) but simultaneously let our midfielders play to their strengths. And it was our mid-size forward who made the difference (S Johnson, Riewoldt)

I think Richmond fans, because they lived it, sometimes underestimate how revolutionary the decision to tap the ball on was. To my mind, having watched the game seriously since the 80s, it was a seismic shift in style and the competition took three years to catch up.

Why it happened will always be a mystery. Geelong in 2006, and Richmond in 2016, ended their seasons losing by almost triple figures. A year later, premiers.

Thanks for the discussion, btw. I find it really interesting.

 

[Mr Magic]

As proud I am of my Cats' era, and the way it returned the game to being attacking and fun after the turgid Swans/Eagles rivalry, I am in awe of how Richmond has changed the game.

I am referring to that manic style of keeping the ball alive by tapping it on. At the time, quite irrationally, I hated it. It struck me as lairising.

Now, of course, everybody does it.

Questions: how do you think it came about? when did you notice it?

And yet Geelong are playing off in the 2022 Grand Final against another.

Do you regard this as a revere troll against RFC supporters?

 

[TigFan1966]

As proud I am of my Cats' era

I've said that the Cat's have the team and now the gameplay to win the flag this year, they used to try and set up kicks into the 50 metre arc, now they get the ball in quickly without hesitation, it's been the change they needed. Very Richmondesque, however their backline is top notch as well whereas ours this year has been a bit hit and miss.

 

[Mr Magic]

We, of course, had a different coach then. Geelong in 07 and 09 were very similar to Richmond a decade later. We recruited a ruckman (ironic for you guys, of course), realised we needed a defensive forward (in our case, Rooke) but simultaneously let our midfielders play to their strengths. And it was our mid-size forward who made the difference (S Johnson, Riewoldt)

I think Richmond fans, because they lived it, sometimes underestimate how revolutionary the decision to tap the ball on was. To my mind, having watched the game seriously since the 80s, it was a seismic shift in style and the competition took three years to catch up.

Why it happened will always be a mystery. Geelong in 2006, and Richmond in 2016, ended their seasons losing by almost triple figures. A year later, premiers.

Thanks for the discussion, btw. I find it really interesting.

Cannot see much similarity between the Cats in 07, 09 etc.. and us in our premiership team. We had a great team , Geelong had great platers everywhere almost a team of all Australians.

If Geelong win in 2022 it is more about a better team than the individuals like us. 2022 is more system based with a different system to us where players are more well rounded than role specific for us

 

[Anthony U]

It just would've been nice if they let our era run its course rather then interfere by including that ugly looking stand rule. I don't recall the AFL ever stepping in to try stop other teams in their dominant eras?

 

[Anthony U]

the turgid Swans/Eagles rivalry

Geel (78) vs Coll (72) 2022 QF, what did you think of that game?

WCE (85) vs SYD (84) in the 2006 GF

Football was fine in 2005 & '06, and what some call "turgid," was just something those two teams had going on between themselves, and I remember l loved watching those contests, just like I loved watching the Geelong vs Collingwood QF, even if the scores weren't in the 100's

 

[Dr Tigris]

I think the most important aspect of this gamestyle was that it was less reliant on pure footballing talent enabling us to leverage effort and running ability. It's a big advantage to be able to turn a one on one contest into a two on one contest repeatedly throughout a game from effort and running ability. The real problem this caused for the AFL was that it undermines the central equalisation strategy, the draft, which has always been talent driven. Of course having more talent is better but if you can gain a competitive advantage but having a gameplan that is less reliant on pure talent and instead can make use of something less valued (in the draft) or that can be instilled through culture then you do that too. I think that's why the AFL changed the rules on us, to lessen the advantages of defensive effort and try to turn the game back to relying more on pure footballing talent. We essentially found a way to hack the system and they had to change it. Of course others would have copied eventually as always but they definitely cut our advantage off early with rule changes.

That said our system is still producing results but they would be a lot better without 666, extended kickin and stand.

We deliberatley started recruiting very high end repeat effort players around 2014 or 2015. They realised that this ability was undervalued in drafting and so picked the equally talented but high end runner/repeat effort players. The game plan was developed around those players. The key thing there is that when players are simply better at repeat efforts they can train harder and can continue that effort longer than the oppo. The oppo then loses the ability to stay in the game as we just played with full pressure and they wilted before us. As they wilted we just went ahead and it got easier for us and harder for them.

Why we developed the whole forward, forward forward style I'm not sure. But I think that is was a reaction to 2016. Up to 2015 Dimma has a hands off style that controlled the game with enormous pressure and running (same repeat effort ability but applied differently). then we hit finals and failed, over and over again. they realised that finals are hands on and you have to have a hands on style. Knowing we were'n't the best kicks they moved towards a fast and furious forward style with immense pressure. Set up behind the ball and move it on and teams just cracked.

Now the tap ons and controlled chaos style has been copied and/or made less impactful through rule changes. The stand rule trashed our pressure style. Other teams do the tap ons and forward handball.

In the end what Dimma showed was that applying pressure wins and can break down even the most skilled team. Pressure through repeat efforts and a strong defensive set up. i loved that style because something was always happening and contests ruled. SHocking and Gil want AFLX, which is the opposite. So 666, stand etc. But teams have found that kick mark doesn't work in finals and they have to move the ball on, as fast as possible. Pressure is now non-negotiable. The 2017+ tiger era changed some aspects of the game fundamentally.

 

[Area51]

We deliberatley started recruiting very high end repeat effort players around 2014 or 2015. They realised that this ability was undervalued in drafting and so picked the equally talented but high end runner/repeat effort players. The game plan was developed around those players. The key thing there is that when players are simply better at repeat efforts they can train harder and can continue that effort longer than the oppo. The oppo then loses the ability to stay in the game as we just played with full pressure and they wilted before us. As they wilted we just went ahead and it got easier for us and harder for them.

Why we developed the whole forward, forward forward style I'm not sure. But I think that is was a reaction to 2016. Up to 2015 Dimma has a hands off style that controlled the game with enormous pressure and running (same repeat effort ability but applied differently). then we hit finals and failed, over and over again. they realised that finals are hands on and you have to have a hands on style. Knowing we were'n't the best kicks they moved towards a fast and furious forward style with immense pressure. Set up behind the ball and move it on and teams just cracked.

Now the tap ons and controlled chaos style has been copied and/or made less impactful through rule changes. The stand rule trashed our pressure style. Other teams do the tap ons and forward handball.

In the end what Dimma showed was that applying pressure wins and can break down even the most skilled team. Pressure through repeat efforts and a strong defensive set up. i loved that style because something was always happening and contests ruled. SHocking and Gil want AFLX, which is the opposite. So 666, stand etc. But teams have found that kick mark doesn't work in finals and they have to move the ball on, as fast as possible. Pressure is now non-negotiable. The 2017+ tiger era changed some aspects of the game fundamentally.

I think you are agreeing with my fundamental idea here that the AFL have sought to make the game more rewarding of talent vis-a-vis effort. ie pressure through effort / running ability is worth relatively less than it used to be (albeit is now a fundamental part of the game).

I think it actually makes it harder for teams that can't identify, attract, keep and develop talent to design a gameplan that can compete as some of their strategies to bring the game back to a level are no longer available. Flooding under 666 for example is no longer possible at centre bounce.

 

[Dr Tigris]

I think you are agreeing with my fundamental idea here that the AFL have sought to make the game more rewarding of talent vis-a-vis effort. ie pressure through effort / running ability is worth relatively less than it used to be (albeit is now a fundamental part of the game).

I think it actually makes it harder for teams that can't identify, attract, keep and develop talent to design a gameplan that can compete as some of their strategies to bring the game back to a level are no longer available. Flooding under 666 for example is no longer possible at centre bounce.

Indirectly I agree.

For me the key thing/event is AFLX. This was the dream of Gil and SHocking. When you look at the rules changes many are intended to create a more AFLX-ish game. AFLX focuses on ball skills above anything else.

The RFC has shown that ball skills a relative, to pressure and speed. Everyone now knows that speed with 85% ball skill beats slower with 100% skill - over a full game. We now know that pressure kills teams. Applying pressure and playing quick tap on, grass ball football is also skilled. Kick mark is such a limited way to view football.