Preview The Western Bulldogs Brownlow Thread 2019

[Yojimbo]

What was our clubs final tally?

81
Bubble of excellence = 59
Rest of team = 22

 

[mcgleereturns]

Watched the Brownlow with a Saints fan who remembers that when the Saints played Carlton Jack Steele kept Cripps to twenty touches while getting 25 himself. Yet he got the 3 votes, extraordinary.

Both had 28 and Cripps got 2, Steele 1 in a game saints won ( umps chose him over Steele just because..... bit like Cripps winning MVP by 300+ because when in doubt give Cripps and Fyfe a vote for playing well). Anyway votes are just opinions. Umps couldn’t ignore Neales 50 in last round, media salivated over Dusty and the umps gave him nothing.

And on the losing side player getting 3s, to be fair 2 of Bonts 3s were in losses.


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[mcgleereturns]

It’s as if, after some games, the umps (no doubt exhausted from all the running, shouting and whistling) when handed the voting paper, fill in the name of someone they know who generally plays well, or who stood out once or twice for some specific reason. Ah well.

And people, it’s “Fyfe didn’t have that good a season “, not “good of a season”.

You’re welcome.

It’s fascinating that back in 1924, the powers that be decided to entrust the highest award to the umpires not the coaches. I suppose they felt the umpires were closest to the action and saw the “unfair” actions the coaches couldn’t see or care about. It was probably easier back then with the slower speed and openness easier to observe. I find it even more fascinating that it took until this century before the coaches were given the opportunity to voice their opinions on who the best player of the season. Would be interesting to know why.

I also find it interesting how many voting systems are used.3-2-1, 5-4-3-2-1, out of 10, top 3, 4,5, popularity vote at end of season. Sometimes a player dominates so much the voting systems don’t matter but then you get years like this year when umpires, coaches and players pick 3 different players under different criteria. Bont most consistent top 5 player by coaches, Cripps most popular/valued/respected by a ridiculous margin by players and Fyfe the only player from his team who stood out so much he couldn’t be ignored because he carried them (also applies to Cripps). Probably sounds petty on Fyfe and Cripps, both super players worthy of winning any of the three awards, but I’ve always had that opinion of the MVP at least because of the margins it produces and how it’s voted. The Brownlow description more linked to this years vote than general opinion - Templeton won with 23 votes in a team that lost its first 11 games!

Anyway, votes are just opinions you can either agree or disagree with. It’s not like I want an award judged by Champion Data!


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[Yojimbo]

Bubble of excellence 59 votes versus whole teams:

Bubble 59 defeated Sydney 53
Bubble 59 defeated St Kilda 53
Bubble 59 defeated Melbourne 47
Bubble 59 defeated Gold Coast 22
Bubble 59 defeated Essendon 58
Bubble 59 defeated Adelaide 53

The Bubble Of Excellence is real:
Macrae: 22 Votes, in 12 Games, for 9 Wins.
Bontempelli: 22 Votes, in 9 Games, for 6 Wins
Dunkley: 15 Votes, in 6 Games, for 6 Wins

Dunkley joined the bubble late,
Which was quite a sin,
For once he joined the bubble,
All we could do was win.

(Except when we lost of course)

 

[ScragCity]

If Bailey Smith played for one of the bigger clubs he would have pissed it in this year.

 

[Dogs Rule]

Umps vote as play unfolds. Coaches take a broader view. Coaches voted Bont as best. Fyfe is a serious gun though. Both awards are a legit fair call.
[/QUOT

I'll never give up on the thought that the 3 should be reserved for the winning team if the game is won by more than 4 goals, unless there are extremely exceptional circumstances. I still remember Ablett polling 3 in a +90pt loss to Coll while at the Suns. Surely there is one player in the winning 22 who is more deserving of 3 votes in those cases.

#Rorted

Agree 100 per cent. Call me crazy but if your team gets hammered or loses enough games to get your coach sacked, there’s no way you should have 33 votes by Round 21.

Too many umpires with stars in their eyes. Surely if you’re an umpire you have to ask yourself who had the biggest influence on the outcome of the game? That’s the player who should get 3.

If a side is beaten maybe a player gets 1 or 2, but 3s by players in beaten and thrashed sides should be very rare.

 

[BallaratBulldog]

Agree 100 per cent. Call me crazy but if your team gets hammered or loses enough games to get your coach sacked, there’s no way you should have 33 votes by Round 21.

Too many umpires with stars in their eyes. Surely if you’re an umpire you have to ask yourself who had the biggest influence on the outcome of the game? That’s the player who should get 3.

If a side is beaten maybe a player gets 1 or 2, but 3s by players in beaten and thrashed sides should be very rare.

Scott West was good at it. Paticularly in 2003 when we were bottom and only fell behind Goodes.

I remember a game where Chris Judd got 3 in a ten goal loss to the pies. His stats weren't special.

 

[Yojimbo]

2019:
Bontempelli 22
Macrae 22
Dunkley 15
Naughton 7
Hunter 5
Daniel 3
Wallis 2
Dale 2
Schache 1
English 1
Johannisen 1

2018:
Macrae 14
Hunter 9
Bontempelli 9
Dunkley 4
Johannisen 3
Suckling 2
McLean 2
Gowers 2
Daniel 1
Williams 1

2017:
Bontempelli 19
Macrae 8
Johannisen 7
Dahlhaus 6
Picken 3
Stringer 3
Hunter 2
Biggs (NF) 1
Daniel 1
McLean 1

2016:
Bontempelli 20
Hunter 13
Johannisen 10
Dahlhaus 7
Stevens 6
Wallis 5
Picken 4
Stringer 4
Biggs (NF) 3
Wood 3
M. Boyd 2
Adams 2
Liberatore 1
Macrae 1

 

[mcgleereturns]

2019:
Bontempelli 22
Macrae 22
Dunkley 15
Naughton 7
Hunter 5
Daniel 3
Wallis 2
Dale 2
Schache 1
English 1
Johannisen 1

2018:
Macrae 14
Hunter 9
Bontempelli 9
Dunkley 4
Johannisen 3
Suckling 2
McLean 2
Gowers 2
Daniel 1
Williams 1

2017:
Bontempelli 19
Macrae 8
Johannisen 7
Dahlhaus 6
Picken 3
Stringer 3
Hunter 2
Biggs (NF) 1
Daniel 1
McLean 1

2016:
Bontempelli 20
Hunter 13
Johannisen 10
Dahlhaus 7
Stevens 6
Wallis 5
Picken 4
Stringer 4
Biggs (NF) 3
Wood 3
M. Boyd 2
Adams 2
Liberatore 1
Macrae 1

Nice to see the umps have discovered who Macrae is after 2016! One vote???


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[dogwatch]

What was our clubs final tally?

Go back 2 pages. Post #120.

 

[TempletonTheRat]

Bubble of excellence 59 votes versus whole teams:

Bubble 59 defeated Sydney 53
Bubble 59 defeated St Kilda 53
Bubble 59 defeated Melbourne 47
Bubble 59 defeated Gold Coast 22
Bubble 59 defeated Essendon 58
Bubble 59 defeated Adelaide 53

The Bubble Of Excellence is real:
Macrae: 22 Votes, in 12 Games, for 9 Wins.
Bontempelli: 22 Votes, in 9 Games, for 6 Wins
Dunkley: 15 Votes, in 6 Games, for 6 Wins

Dunkley joined the bubble late,
Which was quite a sin,
For once he joined the bubble,
All we could do was win.

(Except when we lost of course)

I think our "bubble" was only beaten by Geelong

 

[Dogforever]

Macrae as many votes as Bont. Absurd.

Comment Absurd

 

[Yojimbo]

Comment Absurd

Macrae voted in 12 Games
Bontempelli voted in 9 Games

So the umpires are saying two things:
1- 12 Macrae games = 9 Bontempelli games
2- Macrae is very consistent for being able to vote in 12 games

Lot of common sense, really when you think about it.

 

[grassman75]

I'm aching now - had to do the hardest thing ever and hand over $20 to a former umpire because Cripps polled more than Bont….

I'm calling collusion - he still speaks to the other umps. 4 measly votes and Cripps got all those s**t votes in losing games...I have had some very earnest discussion around how umps cast their votes in games today..its a rort

 

[VogonProsthetnic]

Those 3 votes Curnow got against us really pisses me off. From memory at least 4 of his goals were from free kicks- mainly Cordy being clumsy. But there was a lot of umpiring charity that game. On top of that the umps gave him the 3 votes despite Dunkley playing a blinder. We were easily the better team as well.

 

[VogonProsthetnic]

I'm aching now - had to do the hardest thing ever and hand over $20 to a former umpire because Cripps polled more than Bont….

I'm calling collusion - he still speaks to the other umps. 4 measly votes and Cripps got all those s**t votes in losing games...I have had some very earnest discussion around how umps cast their votes in games today..its a rort

No problem with Cripps polling well- he deserved it.

My problem with him is a player is his poor disposal efficiency- would love to see his goal assists stats vs Bont.

 

[grassman75]

No problem with Cripps polling well- he deserved it.

My problem with him is a player is his poor disposal efficiency- would love to see his goal assists stats vs Bont.

Maybe I don't watch enough Cripps because I don't think he has that much influence on a game - agree on his disposal I just hate the losing teams getting the 3 votes. The ump I spoke to said as much - if they aren't sure who to vote for, they go safe and pick a name player, that's why its become a midfielders medal

 

[worbod]

With 22 votes apiece, Macrae and Bontempelli have established a new record for two teammates polling the same amount of Brownlow votes on the one night. The previous record was 19 each by Jonathon Brown and Simon Black for Brisbane Lions in 2009.

 

[Yojimbo]

No problem with Cripps polling well- he deserved it.

My problem with him is a player is his poor disposal efficiency- would love to see his goal assists stats vs Bont.

Marcus Bontempelli: 127 Games, 91 Goal Assists.

Patrick Cripps: 101 Games, 36 Goal Assists.

Very different players VP so not a great comparison.

 

[mcgleereturns]

No problem with Cripps polling well- he deserved it.

My problem with him is a player is his poor disposal efficiency- would love to see his goal assists stats vs Bont.

Goals Assist
Bont - 21 ( Macrae 22)
Cripps - 6

Score involvements
Bont - 7 pg
Cripps - 5 pg

Inside 50s
Bont - 123
Cripps- 62 ( probably because he handballs so much)

Clearances
Bont - 139
Cripps - 170

What Cripps is rightly praised for but this amounts to 2 more than Bont per game. Not a big diff.

Contested/Uncontested ratio
Bont- 287/338
Cripps - 340/225

I like Bonts balance better. Good in the contest but more uncontested means more freedom to go inside 50 and be more directly involved in assists and involvements. Cripps fans praise him for being a contested beast but doing so much contributes to a lot of handballs.

Kick/handball ratio
Bont- 347/259
Cripps - 212/348

Prefer to see Bont kick for impact than Cripps shovel it out to someone not as good as him

Disposal efficiency
Bont - 68%
Cripps - 73%

Bont takes risks with kicks. Cripps has more effective handballs that hit target over shorter distance

Scores
Bont- 15.27 (42 scores)
Cripps- 13.6 (19 scores)

Bonts biggest flaw but 42 shots ( not counting complete misses) is a positive that can be fixed. Cripps has set a goal to score more.
Time on ground
Bont 84%
Cripps 90%

Cripps is needed on ground more and in the midfield more.


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[dogwatch]

With 22 votes apiece, Macrae and Bontempelli have established a new record for two teammates polling the same amount of Brownlow votes on the one night. The previous record was 19 each by Jonathon Brown and Simon Black for Brisbane Lions in 2009.

Geelong's effort was more surprising - 24 and 27 votes to their top 2. Have 2 players from the one club ever racked up 50+ votes in a season before?*

*Obviously apart from the two years in the 1970s when they awarded double the number of votes (3-2-1 from each of 2 central umpires).

 

[Snarls Barkley]

Geelong's effort was more surprising - 24 and 27 votes to their top 2. Have 2 players from the one club ever racked up 50+ votes in a season before?*

*Obviously apart from the two years in the 1970s when they awarded double the number of votes (3-2-1 from each of 2 central umpires).

Happened a few times recently.

2019 - Dangerfield (27) & Kelly (24) - 51
2016 - Dangerfield (35) & Selwood (18) - 53
2015 - Fyfe (31) & Mundy (19) - 50
2013 - Selwood (27) & Johnson (25) - 52
2011 - Swan (34) & Pendlebury (24) - 58
2011 - Mitchell (30) & Franklin (20) - 50

Near misses

2015 - Kennedy (25) & Hannebery (24) - 49
2012 - Thompson (25) & Dangerfield (23) - 48
2007 - Bartel (29) & Ablett (20) - 49

 

[Snarls Barkley]

Bontempelli and Macrae’s combined 44 is the Bulldogs highest

44 - Bontempelli (22) & Macrae (22) - 2019
42 - West (23) & Johnson (19) - 2006
40 - Hopkins (25) & McAlpine (15) - 1931
37 - Hardie (22) & Wallis (15) - 1985
37 - Hardie (22) & Royal (15) - 1985
37 - Grant (27) & Liberatore (10) - 1997
37 - Bontempelli (22) & Dunkley (15) - 2019
37 - Macrae (22) & Dunkley (15) - 2019
36 - Ware (23) & Hickey (13) - 1941
36 - West (22) & Liberatore (14) - 2000
36 - Cooney (24) & Boyd (12) - 2008
36 - Cooney (24) & Cross (12) - 2008

 

[Snarls Barkley]

Times we’ve had three or more players in the top 20

1931 - Hopkins (2nd), McAlpine (eq 5th), Spurling (eq 17th)
1933 - Hopkins (eq 4th), Ware (eq 4th), Rait (eq 13th), Vosti (eq 13th)
1937 - Ware (6th), Flanigan (eq 14th), Bennett (eq 20th)
1938 - Morrison (eq 3rd), Ware (eq 7th), Hickey (eq 13th), Spargo (eq 18th)
1940 - Ware (4th), Hickey (5th), Olliver (eq 20th)
1941 - Ware (1st), Hickey (eq 6th), Olliver (eq 10th)
1954 - Stevens (eq 3rd), Collins (eq 8th), Whitten (17th)
1955 - Box (7th), Kerr (10th), Whitten (eq 14th), Henderson (eq 19th)
1956 - Box (1st), Whitten (eq 15th), Kerr (eq 20th)
1965 - Jillard (8th), Schultz (eq 9th), Hobbs (eq 19th)
1971 - Dempsey (eq 5th), Thorpe (13th), Quinlan (eq 17th)
1974 - Dempsey (eq 4th), Quinlan (8th), Huppatz (eq 15th)
1985 - Hardie (1st), Royal (eq 4th), Wallis (eq 4th)
1987 - McGuinness (eq 3rd), Royal (eq 3rd), Foster (eq 12th)
1990 - Liberatore (1st), McGuinness (7th), Cameron (eq 16th), Wallis (eq 16th)
1992 - Wynd (1st), Liberatore (eq 8th), Kellett (eq 8th)
1994 - Liberatore (6th), Grant (eq 7th), Cameron (eq 11th), Southern (eq 13th)
1998 - West (3rd), Wynd (eq 17th), Grant (eq 20th)
2008 - Cooney (1st), Boyd (eq 17th), Cross (eq 17th)
2019 - Bontempelli (eq 8th), Macrae (eq 8th), Dunkley (eq 19th)

Thought this was going to be a quick, fun list. Didn’t realise it would occur every other year haha

 

[grassman75]

Goals Assist
Bont - 21 ( Macrae 22)
Cripps - 6

Score involvements
Bont - 7 pg
Cripps - 5 pg

Inside 50s
Bont - 123
Cripps- 62 ( probably because he handballs so much)

Clearances
Bont - 139
Cripps - 170

What Cripps is rightly praised for but this amounts to 2 more than Bont per game. Not a big diff.

Contested/Uncontested ratio
Bont- 287/338
Cripps - 340/225

I like Bonts balance better. Good in the contest but more uncontested means more freedom to go inside 50 and be more directly involved in assists and involvements. Cripps fans praise him for being a contested beast but doing so much contributes to a lot of handballs.

Kick/handball ratio
Bont- 347/259
Cripps - 212/348

Prefer to see Bont kick for impact than Cripps shovel it out to someone not as good as him

Disposal efficiency
Bont - 68%
Cripps - 73%

Bont takes risks with kicks. Cripps has more effective handballs that hit target over shorter distance

Scores
Bont- 15.27 (42 scores)
Cripps- 13.6 (19 scores)

Bonts biggest flaw but 42 shots ( not counting complete misses) is a positive that can be fixed. Cripps has set a goal to score more.
Time on ground
Bont 84%
Cripps 90%

Cripps is needed on ground more and in the midfield more.


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Not that I rate the stat, but what is the Metres gained difference? I'm sure I saw something where Cripps, probably due to all the handballing, barely gains any distance in the games. Bont was regularly up in the 500m mark most of the season. I don't disagree with anyone that Cripps is a good player, I just don't think he is that damaging that he deserved to poll so many votes in losing games. Maybe it rose coloured glasses, but I think his team mate Walsh is a much better player