Mega Thread The Western Bulldogs - The Sack Macca saga

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Mutt

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As for a senior coach, if it isnt Worsfold or Thompson, but someone like them has to mean someone who has coached a team to a flag... That leaves Mark Williams from the current crop

Or someone who has been a assistant before and who was instrumental in a Premiership win :)
So you expect us to believe that the club has already decided to bring in someone over the top of McCartney and that you know this person is? There has been a massive amount of shit talked on this thread but you have just kicked four lengths ahead in the race to the bottom. I call bullshit.
 

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Toastman

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He would have been told that Adelaide were going to pick him with their pick after ours. He would have also been told that 14 out of the 15 shortlisted players we had, were already taken before our pick 15.

To answer your last question, not as much as those at the club.
The TV team didn't even have a photo of Howard to put up on the coverage and the commentator said that they had prepared photos for their assessment of the top 100 players in the draft. That pick was unforgivable.
 

Toastman

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How was drafting and development his fault?
Drafting was Clayton's fault and development was the fault of the administration (shoe-string budget). Eade had both hands tied behind his back. He was a very good coach who got the most he could out of our club, to disagree with that is to not understand the reality of what he faced daily compared to his peers.
He was the senior coach so the buck stops with him on all the decisions. If he just hit the auto pilot button the buck still falls with him for not fixing it sooner and not taking enough interest in what his team was doing.
In the AFL era there are only 4 teams who have not made a grand final, the two expansion teams, Richmond and Us. Eade shouldn't be praised for making prelims, he should be criticised for not making grand finals. We aren't the only poor team but they make GF's and we don't. The reason no other team wants him as a coach is because he wasn't up to the standard.
 

lachy

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He was the senior coach so the buck stops with him on all the decisions. If he just hit the auto pilot button the buck still falls with him for not fixing it sooner and not taking enough interest in what his team was doing.
In the AFL era there are only 4 teams who have not made a grand final, the two expansion teams, Richmond and Us. Eade shouldn't be praised for making prelims, he should be criticised for not making grand finals. We aren't the only poor team but they make GF's and we don't. The reason no other team wants him as a coach is because he wasn't up to the standard.
Again Toastman, and on a lot of things we agree, but list management is not the responsibility of any coach and has not been for a long time. they may be asked their opinion but no the buck of list management does not stop with the coach. The coach is not even the head of the football department.

Team strategy either overall or matchday, player development, yep back stops with the coach even if he is not directly involved. Outside of this it has nothing to do with who the coach is or what they do. He took our lists that he had to work with to 3 prelims, not good enough but that does not mean he failed as a coach.

You also state no other team wants him, are you sure of this? Or is it he has moved on and now has another role in football.
 

lachy

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Lets agree to disagree on that one. Lake with another brain fade gifting a goal to Sookwoldt at the start of the third was a poor umpring decision? Lake got sucked in... Lake should have known better.

Players bombing long in to the forward 50 hoping that someone was going to take a mark? now who's direction was that? If not Eade's plan, the players were not listening...
Or the 1 goal 4 in the last quarter 3 of them within 30 meters not on difficult angles
 

Mofra

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So you expect us to believe that the club has already decided to bring in someone over the top of McCartney and that you know this person is? There has been a massive amount of shit talked on this thread but you have just kicked four lengths ahead in the race to the bottom. I call bullshit.
The question is - who does a senior person replace?
Our senior assistant - Monty - was just named assistant coach of the year and is held in very high regard at WO.
 

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Again Toastman, and on a lot of things we agree, but list management is not the responsibility of any coach and has not been for a long time. they may be asked their opinion but no the buck of list management does not stop with the coach. The coach is not even the head of the football department.

Team strategy either overall or matchday, player development, yep back stops with the coach even if he is not directly involved. Outside of this it has nothing to do with who the coach is or what they do. He took our lists that he had to work with to 3 prelims, not good enough but that does not mean he failed as a coach.

You also state no other team wants him, are you sure of this? Or is it he has moved on and now has another role in football.
I disagree that list management is not the coaches responsibility but I guess we're not going to find a middle ground on that one. I think Eade would agree with your assessment that it's not his responsibility but other coaches would disagree.

Eade has stated publicly over multiple years that he is interested in a senior job but none of the many teams which have replaced their coach have selected him.
 

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Eade has stated publicly over multiple years that he is interested in a senior job but none of the many teams which have replaced their coach have selected him.
There are 2 main reasons why Eade couldnt win a flag with us - his game day plan (1 trick pony) and Scott Clayton's crap draft results
 

Dogs_R_Us

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The question is - who does a senior person replace?
Our senior assistant - Monty - was just named assistant coach of the year and is held in very high regard at WO.
Out of all of the unpalatable solutions put forward, this one I could cop, if I had to (prefer Mac to stay though).

What is this with players mutinying against their coaches?
So far we've heard that players hate
McCartney
Sanderson
Watters
Neeld
Buckley
Voss
Knights
Malthouse

any others?
 

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Toastman

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There are 2 main reasons why Eade couldnt win a flag with us - his game day plan (1 trick pony) and Scott Clayton's crap draft results
Another issue i had with his performance was his unwillingness to cycle through the guys outside of the top 26 or so. by only playing the best team available each week he left us too shallow when injuries occurred. We are the only team in the modern era to have had to bring in a player with 0 AFL games of experience in the finals.
 

Butane

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Lake had 1 year to go on his contract which would have taken him to the end of 2013. If he was at the Bulldogs he was unlikely to have got another contract for 2014 due to his age. And if he did it would have been in the 200-300K a year mark. Lake left because Hawks offered him a 2 year deal at 400K a year as opposed to the Dogs paying him 500K for 1 season with the likelihood off a less a contract in 2014, if at all. He left for guaranteed money(had he of injured himself in 2013 he was done! And he would have lost nearly half a million dollars because no team would get him for 1 season coming off another injury)

Winning 2 flags and a Norm Smith was just a bonus. In hindsight his body and mind held up but at the time everyone - including some of our coaching staff - were saying he was nearly done.
 
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Eade was too relient on Brad Johnson to win us a GF. That was never going to happen. Eade and club failed by not developing and or recruiting a capable key forward when we were rising up the ladder. It was our only main hole and costs us a GF.
 

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The TV team didn't even have a photo of Howard to put up on the coverage and the commentator said that they had prepared photos for their assessment of the top 100 players in the draft. That pick was unforgivable.
That it may be. It is still what happened on draft day.
He was the senior coach so the buck stops with him on all the decisions. If he just hit the auto pilot button the buck still falls with him for not fixing it sooner and not taking enough interest in what his team was doing.
In the AFL era there are only 4 teams who have not made a grand final, the two expansion teams, Richmond and Us. Eade shouldn't be praised for making prelims, he should be criticised for not making grand finals. We aren't the only poor team but they make GF's and we don't. The reason no other team wants him as a coach is because he wasn't up to the standard.
That's an odd measure of success. Simply making a Grand Final. It seems a more logical measure would be winning a Grand Final or consecutive top four finishes/challenging. On the first we have failed but so have many far better resourced teams, on the second we have held our own.
I believe Eade's coaching was undermined in those prelim finals by some very mentally weak efforts from some revered senior players and that was ultimately his downfall he trusted the same players for too long. That side should have been dismantled in 2010. So yeah of course he made mistakes. Who doesn't? But he deserves far more reverence than denigration for what he was able to do under a fair bit of duress including having to answer to Fantasia on all recruitment decisions (including the Howard decision).
No other team wants him? That's ultimately beside the point. No team wanted to give Ken Hinkley a top job but were falling over themselves to appoint Neeld. Football is a strange business.
 

lachy

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I disagree that list management is not the coaches responsibility but I guess we're not going to find a middle ground on that one. I think Eade would agree with your assessment that it's not his responsibility but other coaches would disagree.

Eade has stated publicly over multiple years that he is interested in a senior job but none of the many teams which have replaced their coach have selected him.
Not true. Did you watch the doco on coaches in the AFL last week. Chris Scott mentioned it clearly. At AFL level it is not the coaches responsibility, nothing to do with my assessment it is a question of fact. Coaches may be asked an opinion but ultimate responsibility for list management rests with the recruiting department not the coach.

I personally know this through interactions with 4 clubs and discussions with coaches and administrators, being Us, North, Geelong and Essendon. All other AFL clubs have similar structure.

Coaches implement game style and strategy, they also develop, they do not recruit and have not done so for over a generation.

So you can be critical of Eade for development, but not for list management, same goes for Macca.

You do understand, and I would hope posters do understand the coach is not even head of the football department at a club. It is why I find this thread interesting that Macca is suppose to have all these faults yet allot brought up have next to nothing to do with a coach
 
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_Mike_

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In comparison with Bmac, Eade is a genius coach. 3 prelims compared to struggling to get out of the bottom 4.
A "genius" Eade would have at least won a premiership out of that lot.. A genius???? far from it.. A good coach, yes I agree.

So in comparison to McCartney, Eade was only a very good coach
 

yebiga

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So macca visits bonti before last years draft just to have some home made pasta? I reckon we have a few posters here on bf wb who have done a lot of umpiring , a lot of umpiring.

There are job descriptions and rules and then there is the reality. If a senior coach says I don't want him - what recruiter is going to defy him? In what fantasyland of job descriptions does that exist?
 

lachy

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So macca visits bonti before last years draft just to have some home made pasta? I reckon we have a few posters here on bf wb who have done a lot of umpiring , a lot of umpiring.

There are job descriptions and rules and then there is the reality. If a senior coach says I don't want him - what recruiter is going to defy him? In what fantasyland of job descriptions does that exist?
So you think Bonti is the only player visited?

the recruiters job is to identify numerous opportunities. Do you think if Dalrymple advises Toumpas is a better prospect than Macrae, Macca says I met with his parents I overrule you so we take Macrae?

The recruiting team and list manager spend years identifying talent and in what order they believe they will be taken. the coach is involved in none of that. The only input the coach may have is we are looking at people of certain character so from a list compiled by the recruiting team will talk to the potential targets to ensure they meet this character test.

What information does a coach have that would put them in a position to over rule the recruiting team? Every coach says the same thing, Clarkson a few times has not even been to the draft combine, it is not his role. You are seriously over estimating the role of a coach in recruiting. If you do not believe me, when you get an opportunity speak to a coach. They simply do not have the time to coach the team AND recruit, and over the last 20 years have seen their input back to merely a sounding board
 

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I think Macca would have a large input into recruiting, as part of his overall plan. I envisage our recruiters compiling a list, with all their attributes, and Macca signing off on the ones he'd want after meeting them and their families in person.

How could he not have input? At the very least he would indicate the kinds of players to fill holes, wouldn't he?
 

lachy

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For those who believe coaches have such a large input into coaching, watch the chosen few, Chris Scott emphasises how much input coaches have into recruiting, and quite a few mention the misunderstanding supporters have on what coaches do.

At local level yes coaches have a fair input into recruiting, at AFL level about the only input Coaches have is the character of players they like to work with and physical attributes such as Geelong's big hips so as they develop they are not pushed easily off the ball.

After that it is up to the recruiting team and now days the list manager
 

yebiga

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So you think Bonti is the only player visited?

the recruiters job is to identify numerous opportunities. Do you think if Dalrymple advises Toumpas is a better prospect than Macrae, Macca says I met with his parents I overrule you so we take Macrae?

The recruiting team and list manager spend years identifying talent and in what order they believe they will be taken. the coach is involved in none of that. The only input the coach may have is we are looking at people of certain character so from a list compiled by the recruiting team will talk to the potential targets to ensure they meet this character test.

What information does a coach have that would put them in a position to over rule the recruiting team? Every coach says the same thing, Clarkson a few times has not even been to the draft combine, it is not his role. You are seriously over estimating the role of a coach in recruiting. If you do not believe me, when you get an opportunity speak to a coach. They simply do not have the time to coach the team AND recruit, and over the last 20 years have seen their input back to merely a sounding board
So his there for the pasta
 

TedDougChris

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Not true. There's no need to denigrate Eade in order to make your substantial and solid point.
Agree - I think people are little harsh on Eade, I think he debuted a massive number of players in his last year - so clearly wasn't just looking for a few more quick wins to save his skin. But, whether he was the man for the full rebuild or not, we'll never know.
 
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