Mega Thread The Western Bulldogs - The Sack Macca saga

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yebiga

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If bmac retains his position for five years , he will leave us with a list any clown can coach to a premiership.

That's the difference between Macca and eade. Macca can't coach he just eats pasta and builds lists. Bomber was the same at geelong. We all remember he had every local food delivery menu in the box during the game. The players coached themselves and he ate burgers largely - macca likes pasta.

EAde is of course a better coach if u have to win today . But macca like bomber is about list development and good bloody food.
 

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ErnieSigley

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If bmac retains his position for five years , he will leave us with a list any clown can coach to a premiership.

That's the difference between Macca and eade. Macca can't coach he just eats pasta and builds lists. Bomber was the same at geelong. We all remember he had every local food delivery menu in the box during the game. The players coached themselves and he ate burgers largely - macca likes pasta.

EAde is of course a better coach if u have to win today . But macca like bomber is about list development and good bloody food.
If Bmac is here for 5 years that means the damage is done. Yes we will have a numerous high picks, but the next will need to teach coach them how to win.
Comparing Macca to Thompson is laughable.
 

Reptilia

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If Bmac is here for 5 years that means the damage is done. Yes we will have a numerous high picks, but the next will need to teach coach them how to win.
Comparing Macca to Thompson is laughable.
Have you not realised that there is a major similarity between the two coaches. Their addiction to food/pasta is one of the major reasons geelong were successful. Why you can't see this we will never know.
 

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The original post you were saying it was a joke to say that umpiring contributed to costing us the 2009 Prelim, with the insinuation that Eade's tactics cost us the game.
And I stand by that comment... We should have buried them by half time yet for poor kicking and 4th quarter tactics we (not the umpires) pissed the game away..
 

TedDougChris

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And I stand by that comment... We should have buried them by half time yet for poor kicking and 4th quarter tactics we (not the umpires) pissed the game away..
I don't disagree. We had the game on our terms and didn't take our opportunities. But when a significant number of goals in a close game came from umpiring mistakes, dubious decisions and never been repeated since umpiring decisions - it certainly didn't help. Not that I'm brave enough to watch the game again, but the Saints first goal was wrong, NRoo's first and last were wrong and ..... Ah.... I dont want to go there again !!!! :mad:
 

grassman75

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I remember looking at a replay on the Sunday Footy Show the next day clearly showing Harbrow's fingers being flung back against the ball, all the panel agreed, and it was a lot more clear than quite a few decisions that have been reversed this year.

I don't really care what happened in the re-match the next year, or that you believe some coaches had worked him out. The original post you were saying it was a joke to say that umpiring contributed to costing us the 2009 Prelim, with the insinuation that Eade's tactics cost us the game. The way I see it is if the question is whether it's pretty clear-cut that Eade's tactics that night gave the team an incredible opportunity to win that football game against a superior opponent (and went into the match 21-2), the answer is undoubtedly yes.

Yes, of course it's subjective. But I did say "with the same list". Put McCartney in charge of that same list on that same night, and I don't see him doing as well.
I think you can't even compare putting Macca in Eades position with the same list.
Everyone thinks Macca is a shit coach because he has had a shit list to work with and has had to build it up, hence sacrificing his all important wiin / loss record for the sake of development. None of us have yet been able to see what Macca is capable of with a good list so our judgement is unfairly biased towards what Eade did.
I reckon if Macca had of jumped into the Geelong chair after Thompson instead of Scott, he also would have won the flag. The list was awesome, the players loved him apparently. It practically drove itself.

Purely speculative opinion which is all any of this can be. A guy at my work had a tree fall on his car on the way to work. Neatly killed him. If he hugged his wife for 20 more seconds, had another piece of toast, went back for his wallet....whatever...the tree misses him and either hits some other sucker or misses everything. You cannot compare what would have happened because it didn't
 

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I think you can't even compare putting Macca in Eades position with the same list.
Fact is one is going to be a better coach than the other, right? Some coaches might just be "good" rather than "excellent", and that difference might not always be down to simply being victims of circumstance.

If you give 18 coaches the exact same list with the same injuries and form slumps, across 3 years someone is going to come last, someone is going to excel, most will be middle ground. IMO only half a dozen of them will have a shot at the flag (I reckon it's a fair call that a premiership will typically only won by one of the top 6 coaches in the league). The question is, would McCartney have his team in the top 6 of that comp? Take out the development that every coach has hypothetically had a chance to imprint on the team for 2-3-5 years, just basing it purely on results with the exact same tools at their disposal, where does he sit.

People make the argument "well we're young, so his crappy results shouldn't count against him", but I see someone like Grant Thomas - he takes over a team that is an absolute rabble, a team that has two wins for the entire year. Quite a young list that's been battered, and within 3 years, has them sitting 10-0, on the way to an interstate prelim final where they lost to the eventual premiers by a kick. Yeah, a couple of old heads in the team (much like we've had), but look at the St Kilda bests in most of their games in 2004 and the majority are guys 22 and under.

I look at Clarkson, Lyon, Hinkley, and ask what if they had taken over in 2012? Would it be some miracle turnaround compared to now? No. But would they have a better win percentage than 30%? Would three of the unquestionably best coaches in the league have us in a better position? My gut instinct says yes. It might only be an extra 7-8 wins across that 3 year time frame, but that bumps up the winning percentage to 40%-45%. You might say, "ah, 30% or 40%, no biggie", but that one, two, three games a year that a coach's decisions/tactics/strategy/list management is what might dictate the difference between making and not making the 8 in two years, between winning and losing prelims in 3 years, between winning and losing a Grand Final in 5 years.
You cannot compare what would have happened because it didn't
I can't definitively compare where we would be if we went for Sheedy instead of Hart in 1980 "because it didn't" either, but am I allowed to hazard a guess that things might have turned out differently?
 

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I may have posted something along these lines before, but I really think it's funny that so many posters refer to those who have been critical of McCartney's performance as negative (as well as using other miscellaneous insults), yet constantly criticise the playing group, previous coaches, recruiters, etc. Furthermore there are so many ascertains that the team couldn't be performing better than it has in recent times without sacrificing the future, etc. and anyone that doesn't think so isn't being realistic, blah, blah, blah.

A good coach sees what is possible with the players he has at his disposal, and sets about instructing them to work together to maximise the sum of their abilities. Of course they should recognise the weaknesses in the playing list and look for opportunities to improve it, but that should always be a secondary focus.

Any coach that calls for a long term rebuild, is in my opinion a poor coach who is only interested in protecting themselves from criticism.
It says to his playing group, "I don't think you are good enough, I have no faith in your ability and I want other/better players to replace you."

Frankly it is a recipe disaster, and it is no surprise that our results have been terrible since embarking down this path. I also think it shows a lack of faith in the coach's own ability, because a good coach would back themselves to mould almost any group of players into a competitive unit.

I see changing the coach as a very positive move, providing we get a new coach who believes that our players are capable of much more than they have been delivering recently, and has faith in his own ability to help them do so.
 

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I look at Clarkson, Lyon, Hinkley, and ask what if they had taken over in 2012? Would it be some miracle turnaround compared to now? No. But would they have a better win percentage than 30%? Would three of the unquestionably best coaches in the league have us in a better position? My gut instinct says yes. It might only be an extra 7-8 wins across that 3 year time frame, but that bumps up the winning percentage to 40%-45%. You might say, "ah, 30% or 40%, no biggie", but that one, two, three games a year that a coach's decisions/tactics/strategy/list management is what might dictate the difference between making and not making the 8 in two years, between winning and losing prelims in 3 years, between winning and losing a Grand Final in 5 years.
Could also mean that we miss the draft picks where the guys like Bonts and Macrae were taken and end up with a worse list that is no chance of making a Grand Final. Hypotheticals can always go both ways and a win now could cost a win later. I don't know what the right answer is but I don't think it is as simple as more wins this year equals better chance of a flag in the future.
 

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timtamWB

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A good coach sees what is possible with the players he has at his disposal, and sets about instructing them to work together to maximise the sum of their abilities. Of course they should recognise the weaknesses in the playing list and look for opportunities to improve it, but that should always be a secondary focus.

Any coach that calls for a long term rebuild, is in my opinion a poor coach who is only interested in protecting themselves from criticism.
It says to his playing group, "I don't think you are good enough, I have no faith in your ability and I want other/better players to replace you."
Let's go back to 2011. Do you really think a list with Addison, Cordy (extremely young), Djerkurra, Gilbee (past it), Hargrave (past it), Tom Hill, Hooper, Howard, Markovic, Moles, Mulligan, Panos, Schofield, Sherman, Zeph Skinner and Veszpremi on it could have challenged for the flag. That's not including Williams and Higgins who were injured, Roughead who a few had as a delisting, Lake who was phoning it in and playing pretty badly, plus numerous other injuries/problems with players?

The list at the time was not able to win a premiership. And the players that knew that they were going to be delisted either had to work hard enough to deserve their spot on the list, just weren't good enough, or couldn't be bothered to work hard enough to stay on the list. No point keeping any that were the 2nd two options.
 

grassman75

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We lost games this year we probably should have won. I don't think any of the 3 you mentioned could have made hunter and Dahl not kick it into the post in succession in the dying minutes against the crows, nor could they have made "dead eye" Gia miss horribly, without even scoring against GWS in the final round.
They are just two examples. There were others
So I say no, I don't think they would have made that much difference.
To quote a wise man - you cannot polish a turd
 

ErnieSigley

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We lost games this year we probably should have won. I don't think any of the 3 you mentioned could have made hunter and Dahl not kick it into the post in succession in the dying minutes against the crows, nor could they have made "dead eye" Gia miss horribly, without even scoring against GWS in the final round.
They are just two examples. There were others
So I say no, I don't think they would have made that much difference.
To quote a wise man - you cannot polish a turd
We also won games we could have easily lost. Richmond, Collingwood, Melbourne, etc.
The turd being bmac?
 

murphy2bedabest

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Fact is one is going to be a better coach than the other, right? Some coaches might just be "good" rather than "excellent", and that difference might not always be down to simply being victims of circumstance.

If you give 18 coaches the exact same list with the same injuries and form slumps, across 3 years someone is going to come last, someone is going to excel, most will be middle ground. IMO only half a dozen of them will have a shot at the flag (I reckon it's a fair call that a premiership will typically only won by one of the top 6 coaches in the league). The question is, would McCartney have his team in the top 6 of that comp? Take out the development that every coach has hypothetically had a chance to imprint on the team for 2-3-5 years, just basing it purely on results with the exact same tools at their disposal, where does he sit.

People make the argument "well we're young, so his crappy results shouldn't count against him", but I see someone like Grant Thomas - he takes over a team that is an absolute rabble, a team that has two wins for the entire year. Quite a young list that's been battered, and within 3 years, has them sitting 10-0, on the way to an interstate prelim final where they lost to the eventual premiers by a kick. Yeah, a couple of old heads in the team (much like we've had), but look at the St Kilda bests in most of their games in 2004 and the majority are guys 22 and under.

I look at Clarkson, Lyon, Hinkley, and ask what if they had taken over in 2012? Would it be some miracle turnaround compared to now? No. But would they have a better win percentage than 30%? Would three of the unquestionably best coaches in the league have us in a better position? My gut instinct says yes. It might only be an extra 7-8 wins across that 3 year time frame, but that bumps up the winning percentage to 40%-45%. You might say, "ah, 30% or 40%, no biggie", but that one, two, three games a year that a coach's decisions/tactics/strategy/list management is what might dictate the difference between making and not making the 8 in two years, between winning and losing prelims in 3 years, between winning and losing a Grand Final in 5 years.

I can't definitively compare where we would be if we went for Sheedy instead of Hart in 1980 "because it didn't" either, but am I allowed to hazard a guess that things might have turned out differently?
how did that go for Thomas ? I think what macca is doing is building a team that has had to contend with GC and GWS coming in, we have lost Ward and Harbrow 2 players that we lack 24-26yo 120+ games, also they had 3 drafts were they took all the best young talent.
 

ErnieSigley

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how did that go for Thomas ? I think what macca is doing is building a team that has had to contend with GC and GWS coming in, we have lost Ward and Harbrow 2 players that we lack 24-26yo 120+ games, also they had 3 drafts were they took all the best young talent.
Better than its going for Bmac.
 

Nath09

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I may have posted something along these lines before, but I really think it's funny that so many posters refer to those who have been critical of McCartney's performance as negative (as well as using other miscellaneous insults), yet constantly criticise the playing group, previous coaches, recruiters, etc. Furthermore there are so many ascertains that the team couldn't be performing better than it has in recent times without sacrificing the future, etc. and anyone that doesn't think so isn't being realistic, blah, blah, blah.

A good coach sees what is possible with the players he has at his disposal, and sets about instructing them to work together to maximise the sum of their abilities. Of course they should recognise the weaknesses in the playing list and look for opportunities to improve it, but that should always be a secondary focus.

Any coach that calls for a long term rebuild, is in my opinion a poor coach who is only interested in protecting themselves from criticism.
It says to his playing group, "I don't think you are good enough, I have no faith in your ability and I want other/better players to replace you."

Frankly it is a recipe disaster, and it is no surprise that our results have been terrible since embarking down this path. I also think it shows a lack of faith in the coach's own ability, because a good coach would back themselves to mould almost any group of players into a competitive unit.

I see changing the coach as a very positive move, providing we get a new coach who believes that our players are capable of much more than they have been delivering recently, and has faith in his own ability to help them do so.
People criticise and insult posters like you because they find the generalisations and over-simplifications, like the many posted above, to be short-sighted, frustrating and at times even antagonistic.
 
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Let's go back to 2011. Do you really think a list with Addison, Cordy (extremely young), Djerkurra, Gilbee (past it), Hargrave (past it), Tom Hill, Hooper, Howard, Markovic, Moles, Mulligan, Panos, Schofield, Sherman, Zeph Skinner and Veszpremi on it could have challenged for the flag. That's not including Williams and Higgins who were injured, Roughead who a few had as a delisting, Lake who was phoning it in and playing pretty badly, plus numerous other injuries/problems with players?
The infamous 'no list clogger' year!
 
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A good coach sees what is possible with the players he has at his disposal, and sets about instructing them to work together to maximise the sum of their abilities. Of course they should recognise the weaknesses in the playing list and look for opportunities to improve it, but that should always be a secondary focus.

Any coach that calls for a long term rebuild, is in my opinion a poor coach who is only interested in protecting themselves from criticism.
It says to his playing group, "I don't think you are good enough, I have no faith in your ability and I want other/better players to replace you."

I can see what you are getting at with this post. But I interpret the word 'rebuild' differently. What I think it means is regenerating an ageing list with many veterans approaching retirement (see St Kilda). My opinion of the list at the end of 2011 was that we had ageing quality (Morris, Murph, Lake, Gilbee, Boyd, Hargrave) some great youngsters (Liberatore, Wallis, Dahlhaus) and aside from some exceptions (Minno, Griff, Coons) lots of 'fluff' in the middle. Maybe the middle bracket could of developed further with a different approach? But given the players delisted since 2011, I don't see it (see TT above). Hopefully for Panos's sake he's the one exception.

 
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This is quite honestly the most pressing time for the Western Bulldogs. Last year we where baffled with Bullshit wins at the back end of last year but this year we have lost to Jones who is playing in a foward line that just isnt functional and have lost a 23yo Kid who just hasnt been handled right. Brendan Mcartney your time is now and to be honest none of us will except this teaching bullshit for much longer. It's time BRENDAN enough of the talk it is now. I Blame Brendan for this and now offically on our list of key postion stocks is cordy redpath and campbell in which 2 of those are Ruckman. Brendan Get It Right Or Bugger Off.....Talk's Cheap Now Coming Into Year 4.....
 

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That's the difference between Macca and eade. Macca can't coach he just eats pasta and builds lists. Bomber was the same at geelong. We all remember he had every local food delivery menu in the box during the game. The players coached themselves and he ate burgers largely - macca likes pasta.
If this thread hadn't already jumped the shark, it certainly has now.
 
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This is quite honestly the most pressing time for the Western Bulldogs. Last year we where baffled with Bullshit wins at the back end of last year but this year we have lost to Jones who is playing in a foward line that just isnt functional and have lost a 23yo Kid who just hasnt been handled right. Brendan Mcartney your time is now and to be honest none of us will except this teaching bullshit for much longer. It's time BRENDAN enough of the talk it is now. I Blame Brendan for this and now offically on our list of key postion stocks is cordy redpath and campbell in which 2 of those are Ruckman. Brendan Get It Right Or Bugger Off.....Talk's Cheap Now Coming Into Year 4.....
I was one who brought into Maccas "Young people" bla bla philosophy, but I think you're on the money. Where is the visible improvement. 3 years on and I cant see it improving next year. Sure, some good kids have been drafted, but match day, Macca just seems all lost at sea. Seems like a nice bloke and probably is a great assistant, but unless something dramatically improves soon, he should be pretty nervous. I read an article the other day where Woosha was considering getting back into coaching 2016 onwards. I'd be putting the feelers out come round 10 next year if its all looking pear shaped.
 

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Whatever grip BMac had on this playing group, he's loosing it.
GWS game showed how much some of them care. Players now voting with their feet.

VFL flag was great, but we've already lost 4 players from that game, including the FF and BOG. Maybe more to come.

Got no problem with a 'long game', but wtf is BMac actually building at the moment?
 
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