Mega Thread The Western Bulldogs - The Sack Macca saga

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gimp!

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Those graphs were both mathematically dubious (check out the creative usage of Y-axes) and applied in a rather slippery fashion.
The intervals of the Y-axis for graph 2 was an accident, but genius at the same time.

The overall point being that he did not take over the competitive side he thinks McCartney did, and we must WAIT for the remainder of the year to pan out before even beginning to draw conclusions on particular directions the club may be heading in. Even then, it's not a linear thing.

I mean, comments like "If you hadn't noticed McCartney has only won 8 games in just over a season and a half. We won 9 in 2010, immediately before he took over, which was Eade's worst season result with the dogs" are completely ridiculous.
 

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lachy

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Ernie and the professor will never be convinced until a premiership is won, which if the last 59 years is anything to go by will be never.

They simply do not accept Macca took over a very ordinary deteriorating list, despite all evidence to the contrary. Very few posters are diametrically apposed to Ernie and the Professor as they allude to, most merely want to see the development for one more year, then assess as they accept our list was very ordinary and deteriorating.

Debating them is pointless
 

ErnieSigley

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Why don't you graph Eade's and McCartney's results both on the same set of axes?

Also plotting guesses and trying to draw conclusions from the resulting graph is a rather dubious strategy.
That way it won't support his argument. He has waved off y axis problem too. So many thing wrong with the 2 graph comparisons.
Looks pretty but unfortunately no substance.
 

gimp!

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That way it won't support his argument. He has waved off y axis problem too.
Looks pretty but unfortunately no substance.
Heed this warning all.. Any continuation of baiting/trolling in this thread will see you banned from contributing to it. Continue and you'll be taking a short vacation to consider your behaviour.
Instead of addressing points he is again baiting. Mods, please sort this out.
 

archibald23

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Ernie and the professor will never be convinced until a premiership is won, which if the last 59 years is anything to go by will be never.

They simply do not accept Macca took over a very ordinary deteriorating list, despite all evidence to the contrary. Very few posters are diametrically apposed to Ernie and the Professor as they allude to, most merely want to see the development for one more year, then assess as they accept our list was very ordinary and deteriorating.

Debating them is pointless
Well summed up. I'll be back in half a season (or earlier if we lose to melb or gws).
 

lachy

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How is personal rating a fact?
5
Who said it was a fact. There are no facts supporting either side only opinions.

Where we disagree is I rate the list a 3 and still going down. My expectations were much lower not based on the coach but list management and the state of the list due to lack of resources in our recruiting and development.

I actually agree we should have re appointed Eade, however that call was made. It was made based on the opinion expressed by the president at the time saying in 2011 he expected a premiership per season. Clearly he overrated the list massively and it cost Eade his position. I think you and the professor are doing the same now.

However, in 2 years time I am far from convinced that Macca will be the coach, if he is it will hopefully be because the list is developing in line with its quality and experience and those doing the judging are better than those who rated the list so highly in 2011 costing Eade his job
 

DogDays

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Fact - Eade was moved on
Fact - Bmac is currently coach
Fact - old players are reaching the end and getting worse
Fact - we are blooding young players, some are doing well... Others will need work
Fact - BMac comes from a premiership winning culture and has brought premiership players to help coach our young players
Fact - this year will be a roller coaster
Fact - Griffin is a superstar, Minson should be AA, no other player on current form is anywhere near these two

Opinion - I rated our list as a 3 as well. I also think that given last year and this it's gone up to a 4.
Opinion - I am filled with hope for the first time since 1997 that this group of players can take us all the way. I also feel that the different approach that BMac is taking will, for the first time ever, build this group into a dynasty of success for the bulldogs and no Ernie or Prof or anyone else has shown me any "facts" to change my belief.

GO DOGGIES!
 

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lachy

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Facts
3 wins from 12 this year.
5 last year.
9 the year before that
Fact 15 the year before that
Fact 16 the year before that

So the team had dropped 6 wins in Eades last year and only 4 in Maccas first and only 2 so far likely to be plus 1, stopped the bleeding now turning it around.

See Ernie Facts can be used to support any argument
 

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Time to turn opinion into fact. I'll nominate that a result of 90% or greater (either option) makes it a conclusive BF fact, 75% to 89% a disputed fact and a result of 74% or less inconclusive.
 
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Time to turn opinion into fact. I'll nominate that a result of 90% or greater (either option) makes it a conclusive BF fact, 75% to 89% a disputed fact and a result of 74% or less inconclusive.
I think the poll needs more options, as I feel that on a five option scale macca recruited a list 4/5 on the 'goodness' scale.
 

Interloper

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I think the poll needs more options, as I feel that on a five option scale macca recruited a list 4/5 on the 'goodness' scale.
I hear ya, but for it to be a fact it either is or it isn't, it's black or it's white. All things have to be considered and a conclusion come to. This poll is to establish the fact of the state of the list as it stood upon McCartney's arrival.
 
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Define poor.

The quality of the players on the list wasn't poor overall, however that is all relative. Take Roughead for example. Struggling with consistency and not in the best available team. However he had massive upside that we are now seeing.

Or someone like Gia. Still had the smarts and tank to impact whole games of footy, but was beginning a slow decline. Definitely in the best available team, but not a long term solution.

Overall, the list itself had a lot of good players but at the same time it had lost it's edge.

In my opinion, it was a poor list with a lopsided mix of young kids and then older veterans. Only a few in the middle and even less in the middle who were legitimately top line players hitting their peak.
 

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Macca inherited a list where all but two of the quality players had either just retired or were heading towards retirement in the next few seasons.

Eade ran the senior guys for way too long and never developed any youth and when he left there was never any hope of the team bouncing straight back.

Maybe we should have a 100 point scale so that everyone can choose a different option. At the end of the day it was a bad list whichever scale you put it on.
 

dogwatch

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I don't like where you're going here, Interloper. Media polls attract those who feel strongly about the issue while those who agree but are a bit "meh" couldn't be bothered voting. This tends to amplify the vote of the disaffected.

I voted but whatever the outcome is doesn't prove much to me. It doesn't tell me whether we had a shithot list or a shit list. All it tells me is the opinion of BF members and I think I had a fair idea of that already.

I think "BF fact" may be an oxymoron. Oxymorons are handy for poetry but they're not much use in a shitfight. You might be better off with some sort of Hogwartian spell ... like "Turdus Eliminatus!"
 

Interloper

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Define poor.

The quality of the players on the list wasn't poor overall, however that is all relative. Take Roughead for example. Struggling with consistency and not in the best available team. However he had massive upside that we are now seeing.

Or someone like Gia. Still had the smarts and tank to impact whole games of footy, but was beginning a slow decline. Definitely in the best available team, but not a long term solution.

Overall, the list itself had a lot of good players but at the same time it had lost it's edge.

In my opinion, it was a poor list with a lopsided mix of young kids and then older veterans. Only a few in the middle and even less in the middle who were legitimately top line players hitting their peak.
I agree pretty much with the bolded which makes it a poor list in my view and that's what BMac inherited plus pick 14 in the upcoming draft (Ward having also just left the building). I'm not going to define poor other than to say it's not average or good. If anyone thinks we had an average or good list the day McCartney arrived then they shouldn't answer in the affirmative and we weren't necessarily the only club with a poor list at that time.
 

Butane

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I think losing Hargrave, Gilbee and Lake over the same pre-season with question marks over Morris at the same time was fairly pathetic list planning. That might not have been Macca's fault though. I think we have to many same paced mids and that chasing more via trade/draft was also pretty poor when other clubs were getting Goddard, Tippet, Dawes, Rivers, Chaplin, Monfries ect ect and we got a 29 year old VFL player. Don't get me wrong I think Goodes deserves his spot but only because we didn't get anyone better.

All these things were pointed out by people here and in the media at the time and whilst Stevens and Lower and Young have all past expectations it hasn't helped our structure - which is my opinion is our great flaw.

I'm not voting though. I don't think the list was poor but it wasn't great.
 

Interloper

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I don't like where you're going here, Interloper. Media polls attract those who feel strongly about the issue while those who agree but are a bit "meh" couldn't be bothered voting. This tends to amplify the vote of the disaffected.

I voted but whatever the outcome is doesn't prove much to me. It doesn't tell me whether we had a shithot list or a shit list. All it tells me is the opinion of BF members and I think I had a fair idea of that already.

I think "BF fact" may be an oxymoron. Oxymorons are handy for poetry but they're not much use in a shitfight. You might be better off with some sort of Hogwartian spell ... like "Turdus Eliminatnus!"
Well spotted DW. I'll be interested in the result but I doubt anyone will be swayed by it. It is slightly Hutchy though.
 
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