Mega Thread The Western Bulldogs - The Sack Macca saga

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dogwatch

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Interlope in Hogwartian spells at your own peril!

"Turdus Eliminanus!"* will just create more of the stuff.

* Disappointingly, the Latin word turdus actually means thrush (the bird) but it's good enough for current purposes.
 

_Mike_

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Thread reopened for discussion

Offenders continuing to troll/derail etc will be permanently thread banned.

If you cannot contribute in a sensible manner whether you are for or against McCartney (or indifferent), don't bother posting.

any continuance of quoting previous posts with nothing to add will also see your ability to post in this thread removed.
 

Footy Smarts

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He did inherit a poor list but if anything it's not as bad as our results have been during his reign.
I must say as an outsider, this year I completely disagree.

Player for player in terms of current output how many lists are the bulldogs better than? I'm not talking about potential future output (Stringer, Hrovat, etc) or past performance (Morris, Cooney, Boyd, etc) but right now what they can put on the field. I'd say you're definitely in the bottom 3 and arguably below Melbourne whose youngsters are more advanced and have a few more solid to good players in their prime (Clark, Dawes, Jones, Frawley, Garland). Of course Melbourne, for whatever reasons (coaching, culture, etc) are getting nowhere near the best out of their players. In my opinion your results this year have been over and above what I would have expected given the players current playing level.

Take the StKilda game. I think player for player they clearly put out a better line-up than you. Here'd be my personal ratings for each team based on current playing ability on that day (warning I'm not an expert on either team so they might not be perfect. Also my match-ups might be a bit off too). Ratings out of 10 for each player in brackets.


Roughead (6) > Stanley (4)
Morris (5) > Siposs (4)
Murphy (8) = Fisher (8)
Young (5) < Gwilt (7)
Johannisen (5) < Dempster (7)
Goodes (5) < Roberton (6)
Picken (5) = Geary (5)

Griffen (10) > Dal Santo (8)
Liberatore (7) = Hayes (7)
Boyd (6) < Steven (7)
Stevens (5) < Montagna (7)
Smith (4) = Ross (4)
Hrovat (3) = Newnes (3)
Macrae (5) = Ray (5)
Lower (4) = Jones (4)

Minson (9) > McEvoy (8)

Jones (5) < Reiwoldt (10)
Williams (5) > Hickey (4)
Addison (4) > Webster (3)
Dahlhaus (6) < Milne (7)
Giansiracusa (6) = Saad (6)
Stringer (6) = Maister (6)

Now I think if anything I've been generous to the dogs. Yet still I have you 6 points behind in total. In any case I think it's hard to argue that you put out a stronger team player for player than the Saints that day. Yet you got the win. Same with the week after against Port. Of course if you looked at these 2 teams and where you'd expect them to be in 3 years time, the dogs would be miles ahead but potential doesn't win games for you right now.

It's easy at 3-9 to say you've had a terrible year but week after week McCartney's got less current ability at his disposal than his opposition coach. The fact he's got 3 wins out of them is pretty impressive considering what he's had to work with (I'm not denying there's also been huge disappointments). Of course the test isn't whether he can get wins out of an ordinary list but whether he can make the young players reach their potential so in a few years time he's got more ability at his disposal than the opposing coach because in the vast majority of cases the team with the better players wins. It's far too early to judge but there's signs that he's developing a very talented group.
 

timtamWB

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I must say as an outsider, this year I completely disagree.

Player for player in terms of current output how many lists are the bulldogs better than? I'm not talking about potential future output (Stringer, Hrovat, etc) or past performance (Morris, Cooney, Boyd, etc) but right now what they can put on the field. I'd say you're definitely in the bottom 3 and arguably below Melbourne whose youngsters are more advanced and have a few more solid to good players in their prime (Clark, Dawes, Jones, Frawley, Garland). Of course Melbourne, for whatever reasons (coaching, culture, etc) are getting nowhere near the best out of their players. In my opinion your results this year have been over and above what I would have expected given the players current playing level.

Take the StKilda game. I think player for player they clearly put out a better line-up than you. Here'd be my personal ratings for each team based on current playing ability on that day (warning I'm not an expert on either team so they might not be perfect. Also my match-ups might be a bit off too). Ratings out of 10 for each player in brackets.


Roughead (6) > Stanley (4)
Morris (5) > Siposs (4)
Murphy (8) = Fisher (8)
Young (5) < Gwilt (7)
Johannisen (5) < Dempster (7)
Goodes (5) < Roberton (6)
Picken (5) = Geary (5)

Griffen (10) > Dal Santo (8)
Liberatore (7) = Hayes (7)
Boyd (6) < Steven (7)
Stevens (5) < Montagna (7)
Smith (4) = Ross (4)
Hrovat (3) = Newnes (3)
Macrae (5) = Ray (5)
Lower (4) = Jones (4)

Minson (9) > McEvoy (8)

Jones (5) < Reiwoldt (10)
Williams (5) > Hickey (4)
Addison (4) > Webster (3)
Dahlhaus (6) < Milne (7)
Giansiracusa (6) = Saad (6)
Stringer (6) = Maister (6)

Now I think if anything I've been generous to the dogs. Yet still I have you 6 points behind in total. In any case I think it's hard to argue that you put out a stronger team player for player than the Saints that day. Yet you got the win. Same with the week after against Port. Of course if you looked at these 2 teams and where you'd expect them to be in 3 years time, the dogs would be miles ahead but potential doesn't win games for you right now.

It's easy at 3-9 to say you've had a terrible year but week after week McCartney's got less current ability at his disposal than his opposition coach. The fact he's got 3 wins out of them is pretty impressive considering what he's had to work with (I'm not denying there's also been huge disappointments). Of course the test isn't whether he can get wins out of an ordinary list but whether he can make the young players reach their potential so in a few years time he's got more ability at his disposal than the opposing coach because in the vast majority of cases the team with the better players wins. It's far too early to judge but there's signs that he's developing a very talented group.
Good post. I think you're underselling JJ and Morris though, even though it wouldn't tip us ahead in points in total. People sometimes take "potential" as "this player is amazing and a gun already", for example Stringer, but at the moment he would only be around a 6. Because our list is young some get overawed and think our list is better than it is. But the thing is that mostly it's those good young players fighting for the same spots, and if they all grow together THEN in the future our list will be good and have good depth, but that remains to be seen.
 
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Facts
3 wins from 12 this year.
5 last year.
9 the year before that
I have no intention of inflaming an argument or baiting, merely comparing quoted facts above, which I agree are facts, with these facts:

Rodney Eade inherited a list from Peter Rohde at the end of 2005.
In 2005, he coached us to 11 wins.
In 2006, he coched us to 13 wins, and finals, missing Darcy, Murphy and Hahn with long-term knee injuries.
In 2007, he coached us to 9 1/2 wins, with those three players back.

You have stated elsewhere that Eade is a better coach than Macartney.

Looking at the facts I have quoted, Eade coached a similar list less successfully between 2006 and 2007.

So I assume you would agree that if Macartney should be sacked now, then so should Eade at the end of 2007?

Personally, I have tempered my view of Macartney somewhat, and believe like others, that he is building a strong list, but seems to struggle on a tactical basis on matchday. However, assuming we don't lose to Melb and GWS, I have no doubt he will remain coach this year. I would expect significantly more wins next year as a sign of improvement though, as a similar result to this year would have the media gunning for him, and quite rightly.
 
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I just came onto the Bulldogs board to have a look and see if WBD people thought Hrovat was best 22 and saw this thread...
I'm legitimately shocked to see people want Mccartney gone after 18 months... From an outsider perspective most could see that the WBD needed a rebuild of sorts (rather than 'being competative' to being a serious contender for the flag), so the idea of 4 steps backwards before 5 steps forward is the norm in this case

The WBD have gained some great draft picks and are building some serious class through the middle for years to come with young GUNS such as Libber, Stringer Hrovat, Mcrae etc. They are all developing nicely so at least you don't appear to be having Melbourne development issues.

It might take a few years but the WBD are building terrifically and building great midfield depth which is where gun teams build a real list from - if in the offseason the heirachy can find a way to get you hands on Boyd (of the Tom variety) it is the next step to having a list with no holes

But Doggy people hold course in 2 years time the team will be around that 6th - 9th postion mark but the talent will be young hungry and rising (If I could compare the doggies now to anyone it might be the tigers 2 years ago when they only appeared to have Martin and Cotchin as future hope but when a team develops right often core players look better)
 

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Some Idiot

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I must say as an outsider, this year I completely disagree.

Player for player in terms of current output how many lists are the bulldogs better than? I'm not talking about potential future output (Stringer, Hrovat, etc) or past performance (Morris, Cooney, Boyd, etc) but right now what they can put on the field. I'd say you're definitely in the bottom 3 and arguably below Melbourne whose youngsters are more advanced and have a few more solid to good players in their prime (Clark, Dawes, Jones, Frawley, Garland). Of course Melbourne, for whatever reasons (coaching, culture, etc) are getting nowhere near the best out of their players. In my opinion your results this year have been over and above what I would have expected given the players current playing level.

Take the StKilda game. I think player for player they clearly put out a better line-up than you. Here'd be my personal ratings for each team based on current playing ability on that day (warning I'm not an expert on either team so they might not be perfect. Also my match-ups might be a bit off too). Ratings out of 10 for each player in brackets.


Roughead (6) > Stanley (4)
Morris (5) > Siposs (4)
Murphy (8) = Fisher (8)
Young (5) < Gwilt (7)
Johannisen (5) < Dempster (7)
Goodes (5) < Roberton (6)
Picken (5) = Geary (5)

Griffen (10) > Dal Santo (8)
Liberatore (7) = Hayes (7)
Boyd (6) < Steven (7)
Stevens (5) < Montagna (7)
Smith (4) = Ross (4)
Hrovat (3) = Newnes (3)
Macrae (5) = Ray (5)
Lower (4) = Jones (4)

Minson (9) > McEvoy (8)

Jones (5) < Reiwoldt (10)
Williams (5) > Hickey (4)
Addison (4) > Webster (3)
Dahlhaus (6) < Milne (7)
Giansiracusa (6) = Saad (6)
Stringer (6) = Maister (6)

Now I think if anything I've been generous to the dogs. Yet still I have you 6 points behind in total. In any case I think it's hard to argue that you put out a stronger team player for player than the Saints that day. Yet you got the win. Same with the week after against Port. Of course if you looked at these 2 teams and where you'd expect them to be in 3 years time, the dogs would be miles ahead but potential doesn't win games for you right now.

It's easy at 3-9 to say you've had a terrible year but week after week McCartney's got less current ability at his disposal than his opposition coach. The fact he's got 3 wins out of them is pretty impressive considering what he's had to work with (I'm not denying there's also been huge disappointments). Of course the test isn't whether he can get wins out of an ordinary list but whether he can make the young players reach their potential so in a few years time he's got more ability at his disposal than the opposing coach because in the vast majority of cases the team with the better players wins. It's far too early to judge but there's signs that he's developing a very talented group.
I nearly stopped reading when you gave Morris 5 tbh. All Australian defender who's close to that type of form after returning from bad injury. Plenty of other interesting rankings, but the rest at least seem well reasoned from an outside perspective.
 

Footy Smarts

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I nearly stopped reading when you gave Morris 5 tbh. All Australian defender who's close to that type of form after returning from bad injury. Plenty of other interesting rankings, but the rest at least seem well reasoned from an outside perspective.
Hey I'm not arguing they're all perfect. Morris right now though is playing nowhere near his best and he's struggling in coming back from injury (to be expected).

But even then could you really argue you had the better team player for player? I think doing so would be seriously overrating your players as they are currently (not what they were or what they will be). It just gives you an idea of just how hard a task McCartney has to be competitive right now. To get three wins against better teams (Brisbane, StKilda and Port should all be better than you at this stage) is a pretty good effort even if 3-9 doesn't look pretty.
 

timtamWB

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Hey I'm not arguing they're all perfect. Morris right now though is playing nowhere near his best and he's struggling in coming back from injury (to be expected).
But is he really? He definitely hasn't been struggling, he's been playing well, pretty much every week beats his opponent. And I think you're massively underselling him.

I'm not disagreeing with your overall premise, just with your assessment of Morris.
 

GetDimmaBack

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I just came onto the Bulldogs board to have a look and see if WBD people thought Hrovat was best 22 and saw this thread...
I'm legitimately shocked to see people want Mccartney gone after 18 months... From an outsider perspective most could see that the WBD needed a rebuild of sorts (rather than 'being competative' to being a serious contender for the flag), so the idea of 4 steps backwards before 5 steps forward is the norm in this case
Yeah, I agree Pendles. I found it quite amazing that 18 months into a rebuild - which is always going to be the case when you top up with players for a tilt at the flag, as we did - people are saying the coach needs to go.

Your point about Richmond is one that I hang my hat on. In our game agianst the Tigers in Round 2, 2010,
we won by about 70 points, but I thought we played very ordinary football. I also felt that the Tiges were just about the worst AFL side I had seen. Three years later, they're smashing us and looking a real chance to be a top side in the next year or two.

It may just be the same with us. A little patience is required, but in these days of instant gratification, a little patience amounts to about three weeks...
 

Footy Smarts

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But is he really? He definitely hasn't been struggling, he's been playing well, pretty much every week beats his opponent. And I think you're massively underselling him.

I'm not disagreeing with your overall premise, just with your assessment of Morris.
Fair enough. You see a lot more of him than I do and you'd know how he's playing a lot better than me.
 

Anja_Nees

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But is he really? He definitely hasn't been struggling, he's been playing well, pretty much every week beats his opponent. And I think you're massively underselling him.

I'm not disagreeing with your overall premise, just with your assessment of Morris.
I think Morris' comeback has been exceptional really. He's not as much of a standout as he was in his best years but he's still quick and still keeps his man quiet. I honestly expected him to come back, play 15 or so games and then gracefully retire. I'd expect him to at least go on next year now and there's no reason he won't last longer than that.
 

the dog's kennel

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But is he really? He definitely hasn't been struggling, he's been playing well, pretty much every week beats his opponent. And I think you're massively underselling him.

I'm not disagreeing with your overall premise, just with your assessment of Morris.
I think Morris' comeback has been extraordinary given his age. But I really think he's a shadow of his former self. Think 5's a bit unfair, but i wouldn't have given him much more than 6 myself these days.

I think part of what makes people not appreciate Roughie the FB as much as they should, is the number of times we see him arriving at a contest just after a Forward marks the ball. But the reason that keeps happening is because Roughie keeps covering other people's men as well as his own. It's part of what I love about him - he is an extremely unselfish defender. And the reason this is relevant is because a lot of the time he's helping Morris out.

3 years ago it was the other way round - Morris covering his man plus half covering 2 others. But these days he has his work cut out for him just covering his own man 85% of the time.

I don't want to talk him down too much - he still knows his craft. But I fear he's lost a bit of power and a bit of pace and so is no longer "The Glove".

I also suspect he won't be going past 2014 - which is more than fair enough. The guy's been a gem.
 

Bodicifer

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I just came onto the Bulldogs board to have a look and see if WBD people thought Hrovat was best 22 and saw this thread...
I'm legitimately shocked to see people want Mccartney gone after 18 months... From an outsider perspective most could see that the WBD needed a rebuild of sorts (rather than 'being competative' to being a serious contender for the flag), so the idea of 4 steps backwards before 5 steps forward is the norm in this case

The WBD have gained some great draft picks and are building some serious class through the middle for years to come with young GUNS such as Libber, Stringer Hrovat, Mcrae etc. They are all developing nicely so at least you don't appear to be having Melbourne development issues.

It might take a few years but the WBD are building terrifically and building great midfield depth which is where gun teams build a real list from - if in the offseason the heirachy can find a way to get you hands on Boyd (of the Tom variety) it is the next step to having a list with no holes

But Doggy people hold course in 2 years time the team will be around that 6th - 9th postion mark but the talent will be young hungry and rising (If I could compare the doggies now to anyone it might be the tigers 2 years ago when they only appeared to have Martin and Cotchin as future hope but when a team develops right often core players look better)

Very well said pendles:thumbsu:
 
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I think the problem is the outsiders can see the rebuild shaping up. They aren't invested the way we supporters are, so they can form a pretty unbiased opinion and see it for what it really is. A long term plan. They don't feel the pain we do and watch the odd Bulldogs game here or there. They can see the small improvements over the stretched period of time.

A lot of Bulldogs supporters who argue about this stuff day in and day out don't see the bigger picture because they are living this day by day. The steps are tiny, but every week people are expecting miracles.

Like BMac has stated numerous times this season. The team is moving forwards, but it's all in baby steps. We wont see a major improvement for a while yet.
 

Bulldog1954

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I must say as an outsider, this year I completely disagree.

Player for player in terms of current output how many lists are the bulldogs better than? I'm not talking about potential future output (Stringer, Hrovat, etc) or past performance (Morris, Cooney, Boyd, etc) but right now what they can put on the field. I'd say you're definitely in the bottom 3 and arguably below Melbourne whose youngsters are more advanced and have a few more solid to good players in their prime (Clark, Dawes, Jones, Frawley, Garland). Of course Melbourne, for whatever reasons (coaching, culture, etc) are getting nowhere near the best out of their players. In my opinion your results this year have been over and above what I would have expected given the players current playing level.

Take the StKilda game. I think player for player they clearly put out a better line-up than you. Here'd be my personal ratings for each team based on current playing ability on that day (warning I'm not an expert on either team so they might not be perfect. Also my match-ups might be a bit off too). Ratings out of 10 for each player in brackets.


Roughead (6) > Stanley (4)
Morris (5) > Siposs (4)
Murphy (8) = Fisher (8)
Young (5) < Gwilt (7)
Johannisen (5) < Dempster (7)
Goodes (5) < Roberton (6)
Picken (5) = Geary (5)

Griffen (10) > Dal Santo (8)
Liberatore (7) = Hayes (7)
Boyd (6) < Steven (7)
Stevens (5) < Montagna (7)
Smith (4) = Ross (4)
Hrovat (3) = Newnes (3)
Macrae (5) = Ray (5)
Lower (4) = Jones (4)

Minson (9) > McEvoy (8)

Jones (5) < Reiwoldt (10)
Williams (5) > Hickey (4)
Addison (4) > Webster (3)
Dahlhaus (6) < Milne (7)
Giansiracusa (6) = Saad (6)
Stringer (6) = Maister (6)

Now I think if anything I've been generous to the dogs. Yet still I have you 6 points behind in total. In any case I think it's hard to argue that you put out a stronger team player for player than the Saints that day. Yet you got the win. Same with the week after against Port. Of course if you looked at these 2 teams and where you'd expect them to be in 3 years time, the dogs would be miles ahead but potential doesn't win games for you right now.

It's easy at 3-9 to say you've had a terrible year but week after week McCartney's got less current ability at his disposal than his opposition coach. The fact he's got 3 wins out of them is pretty impressive considering what he's had to work with (I'm not denying there's also been huge disappointments). Of course the test isn't whether he can get wins out of an ordinary list but whether he can make the young players reach their potential so in a few years time he's got more ability at his disposal than the opposing coach because in the vast majority of cases the team with the better players wins. It's far too early to judge but there's signs that he's developing a very talented group.
Macca has been coach for 18 months. In 2011, the season before Macca arrived we won 9 games and had a percentage of 95%. In 2012 we won five games and had a percentage of 67% and got hammered for 12 consecutive weeks. Sure there was some turnover in the list and I did expect to drop down, but dropping by 28% is disgusting. The second half of 2012 was the worst Western Bulldogs side I have seen and I have been a member since 1989.

Comparing the list to St Kilda in one game during Maccas second season doesn't really address the whole issue. In the time Macca has been coach St Kilda have won 15 games we have won 8. We beat them on one day, over the course of Maccas tenure they have been far better and absolutely humiliated us last year. Beating a couple of sides better then us doesn't prove a whole lot as there have been many games where we have lost by much more then what the respective lists would suggest should be the case. We basically lost to Preston last year when we played Carlton.

Since hiring Macca we have been the third worst side ahead of only GWS and Melbourne, both of whom we have a much better list then. I don't want Macca sacked and think he needs time but I can not accept in any way that we have performed any better then the sum of our parts during Maccas 18 months. Our list is poor and poor results are to be expected but our list isn't as bad as our results have suggested
 
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yeah morris is better tha that but Stringer 6 is generous too
Interesting to look at current successful coaches going around at ...
http://stats.rleague.com/afl/stats/coaches/Alastair_Clarkson.html

Whilst the context (list development stage) is always different, Clarkson has the only pattern that 'could' (fingers crossed) support Macca. He had wins of 5, 9, 13, 17 (flag) in his first 4 years. Others: Bomber Thompson 12, 9, 11, 7, 15, 12, 10, 18 (1st flag); Roos 14 (1st full year), 13, 15 (flag); Worsfold 11, 12, 13, 17, 17 (flag), 15 (lost Judd), 4, 8, 4, 17, 15.

The term for plans that take time to develop is 'implementation dip' ... hopefully year 3 with Macca see's a healthy upward projection, though doubt we'll get to 9 wins this year (maybe 6 or 7).
 

ThirdLegUp

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Wouldn't the media love that. They obviously have a good understanding and friendship with one another. Would Bomber trade places....would it really be trading places in anything but title. I wouldn't be surprised if it actually functioned as a two coaches thing behind the scenes.

Would that be a first in the AFL?
 
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