Mega Thread The "Will GWS make it" megathread (NO similar threads will be allowed)

[Charlie Bucket]

Generalising about the GWS area of some 2million people in various suburbs is silly too. But that didnt stop you.
Their are a lot of nice leafy areas with cafes & restaurants.

But the question remains, what attracts &/or retains players?

It's common knowledge amongst football circles that a lot of players aren't keen on living in the western suburbs of Sydney. Others are entitled to a differing opinion though.
There's many things that attract/retain players. Success, money, playing in front of large crowds at the G, big city/cafe lifestyles, living in sunny Queensland and WA, superior footballing programs ( hawthorn)
In GWS' case it currently success ( almost guaranteed)that is so appealing to players.
As with the point I've made previously, once GWS' leg up drops off and they drop down the ladder, as happens to all clubs, I just don't think there's enough appeal for players to cross clubs to sign with them and retaining may be hard for the same reasons.

 

[robbieando]

It's common knowledge amongst football circles that a lot of players aren't keen on living in the western suburbs of Sydney. Others are entitled to a differing opinion though.
There's many things that attract/retain players. Success, money, playing in front of large crowds at the G, big city/cafe lifestyles, living in sunny Queensland and WA, superior footballing programs ( hawthorn)
In GWS' case it currently success ( almost guaranteed)that is so appealing to players.
As with the point I've made previously, once GWS' leg up drops off and they drop down the ladder, as happens to all clubs, I just don't think there's enough appeal for players to cross clubs to sign with them and retaining may be hard for the same reasons.

Your just assuming that the Giants players all live in the western suburbs of Sydney as if its some sort of war zone that no player wants to live in. However most players have moved from the "hellhole" of Breakfast Point into the eastern suburbs over the course of the Giants history where they clearly don't feel the lifestyle is so bad or such a huge factor as your making it out to be. You can't in turn say Sydney as a whole holds no appeal when the Giants (and the Swans) have been able to attract players to the city for lifestyle reasons alone.

When the drop off happens, they will have to make sure they don't forget to have a player welfare program in place, have top of the range training facilities nor attempt to go the quick fix that have caused Brisbane's problems. But at least with the Giants we know they have in place a top quality player welfare program and training facilities that are the best in Sydney and up with the best in the League.

 

[BringBackTorps]

GWS has 20,803 members (inc. 4500 in Canberra); & very strong commercial sponsors. This is excellent for an area that was barren for AF, & better than some NRL Sydney clubs who have been the dominant code since 1908 (& better than Footscray c. 20 years ago! Footscray was estab. 1875 -how big will GWS' membership be in 137 years?!).

GWS GR regd.player nos. have more than doubled since 2012 (to 155 teams); & even GWS female AF comps. have started in 2017. (GM's accurate Syd. figures above do not include Auskick, which has also had strong growth; nor all of the significant growth of AF comps in ALL Syd. primary & secondary schools).

Record nos. of NSW players are being drafted since GWS started in 2012. There was a BIG NSW draft absence from c.2000 -2012.

On 18.7, AFL NSW/ACT CEO Sam Graham told the ABC"...female teams have grown by 77% (in ONE year in NSW, since 2017 AFLW start -my words); & "...our game's in the majority of schools now...". Massive achievements for GR AF.
Female AF will probably continue to explode in Syd.(as it has in 2017 throughout Aust.) until 2027: AFLW Swans team on track & AFLW builds to 18 Clubs. Jnr. female Academies, for the AFLW, are being established in 2018 in Syd.

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-18/giant-tide-rising-in-sydneys-west/8720542

GWS average home crowds are modest, but are slowly improving. Not far off RU & soccer-RL, cumulatively, will continue to dominate.

The AFL always said that GWS (& the GC) will, for an objective, realistic evaluation, require a 20 year time span -GWS is tracking quite well. Most sensible observers think, whilst there is always some risk when expanding in an AF-barren area, that GWS should be able to carve out a successful, self-sustaining niche by 2032. By then, GWS (not inc. the ACT) is likely to have grown from c.2,000,000 to c. 3,000,000.

The major risk for the AFL would be NOT to attempt to establish an AFL Club in such a huge area, with such major economic clout. 50% + of all advertising revenue is generated from Sydney, which also has nearly 50% of the top ASX 200 listed companies (& some very large unlisted companies). It is also the HQ of most media & advertising companies. Canberra, IIRC, has Aust.'s highest average wages.

IF the current AF GR regd. nos. growth rates continue (doubling every 5-6 years, a very big challenge), by 2032 GWS will be considered the most successful genuine EXPANSION Club ever for AF.
Most people who contribute to this site consider AF to be the best game to play & watch in the world. Why wouldn't GWS be able to carve out a successful niche?
In business you either prudently expand, if you have a very good product -or allow your competitors to grow more profitable in areas you don't exist; & then they might attack YOUR heartland. Thus, threatening YOUR profitability, success, & market share.
Do you think G. Coles should simply have retained only the one store in Collingwood in 1914;& S. Myer only one store in Bendigo in the 1850's?


EDIT
GWS now has 155 jnr AF teams -strong growth in the AFL's brave, but wise, decision to expand to GWS.

The booming western suburbs of Melb., Aust.'s fastest growing area, has ONLY 209 jnr AF teams in its heartland WRFL (being totally smashed by GR soccer regd. nos.)...& the Western Jets have a miserable Draft record.
Why aren't the AFL Executive team, on an outrageous $8,000,000+ pa, held accountable for this pathetic heartland performance...and/or should it also be Footscray's responsibility?

 

[Ian Dunross]

The better question is where the third Sydney team should be based and whether it should be brought in in 15 years time or 25 years time

 

[Rob]

The booming western suburbs of Melb., Aust.'s fastest growing area, has ONLY 209 jnr AF teams in its heartland WRFL (being totally smashed by GR soccer regd. nos.)...& the Western Jets have a miserable Draft record.
Why aren't the AFL Executive team, on an outrageous $8,000,000+ pa, held accountable for this pathetic heartland performance...and/or should it be Footscray's responsibility?

I found that quite funny.....can the arguments against GWS - being low numbers, little interest - be applied to the Western suburbs of Melbourne as well? The Bulldogs have been there over 100 years and the interest and participation levels appear to be a lot less there than the rest of Melbourne. And they remain on AFL life support with millions in handouts every year. Will the Bulldogs ever make it? How long before we can determine it? And who'd want to live in the Western suburbs of Melbourne? I've been to Deer Park, it was a shithole.



(Yes, this is tongue in cheek to a certain extent).

 

[BringBackTorps]

I found that quite funny.....can the arguments against GWS - being low numbers, little interest - be applied to the Western suburbs of Melbourne as well? The Bulldogs have been there over 100 years and the interest and participation levels appear to be a lot less there than the rest of Melbourne. And they remain on AFL life support with millions in handouts every year. Will the Bulldogs ever make it? How long before we can determine it? And who'd want to live in the Western suburbs of Melbourne? I've been to Deer Park, it was a shithole.



(Yes, this is tongue in cheek to a certain extent).

Footscray has been a proud, working class football club for 142 years - & will be for another 142 years, as it's ESSENTIAL to have a strong AFL presence in Aust.'s fastest growing (NW also) area. Footscray has the WS all to itself. Footscray (& North/ St Kilda) has "gifted" (~ AFL-imposed unfair tenancies) Docklands (worth c.$1.5 billion) to the AFL. The AFL wants the State Govt. to spend c.$300,000,000 on it/area- to revive area as a 365 day tourist attraction (& AFL eternal 365 day cash cow!)

Ditto the Tasmanian heartland disaster, until the 90's, an assembly line of great players for the VFL/AFL -some of the greatest players (eg T. Johnson, Baldock, Howell, Stewart, Hart, Hudson, Lawrence, Greening, Crosswell, Sproule, Eade, Pritchard, Cresswell, Lynch, P.Williams, M.Richardson, R.Robertson, N.& J. Riewoldt etc) of all time! Tas State teams have defeated Vic., WA, & SA! TSL is now dying (TFL GF 1970 crowd was 24,413; Hobart total 1971 TFL crowds 271, 276!) due to AFL neglect, mismanagement, & direct VFL/AFL telecasts. After GWS & GC become self-sustaining (15 years+?), Tas. must have its own AFL team to rectify the disaster.
At least Tasmania (with a bit over Melb.'s western suburbs pop.) has c. 30,000 regd. nos. Due to demographics, Tas. absolutely SMASHES the pathetic GR nos. of Melb.'s WS.

An arguable case can be mounted that the AFL Executive team should offer their resignation to the Commission -for their undeniable failures in the heartlands of Melb.'s WS, & Tas.
Anecdotally, the VAFA has demonstrated that Australians of Asian background (mainly school Old Boys'teams) can be recruited in reasonable nos. to senior AF.

 

[NoobPie]

The booming western suburbs of Melb., Aust.'s fastest growing area, has ONLY 209 jnr AF teams in its heartland WRFL (being totally smashed by GR soccer regd. nos.)...& the Western Jets have a miserable Draft record.
Why aren't the AFL Executive team, on an outrageous $8,000,000+ pa, held accountable for this pathetic heartland performance...and/or should it also be Footscray's responsibility?

I'm all for growth of the game in western Sydney but this is a highly misleading comparison. Western suburbs clubs also play in the far bigger and better Essendond District Football League (which effectively the north western suburbs) and there are clubs playing in the Geelong League and you have Melton playing in the Riddell District League.

1) The population covered by these four leagues would be less than "Greater" Western Sydney.
2) Junior Soccer participation across this region is nowhere near Australian Football's...where are you getting that from?

 

[BringBackTorps]

I'm all for growth of the game in western Sydney but this is a highly misleading comparison. Western suburbs clubs also play in the far bigger and better Essendond District Football League (which effectively the north western suburbs) and there are clubs playing in the Geelong League and you have Melton playing in the Riddell District League.

1) The population covered by these four leagues would be less than "Greater" Western Sydney.
2) Junior Soccer participation across this region is nowhere near Australian Football's...where are you getting that from?

1) GWS metro area (the area for which GM above provided the no. of 155 jnr. AF teams -which did not include ACT, sthn. NSW) certainly covers a much wider geographic area than the WS of Melb; & GWS has over 2,000,000 people (much bigger pop. than the WS of Melb.). Up until very recently, GR AF hardly existed in this huge area -but strong growth has occurred, of a very low base, since GWS was created. This is not a coincidence.

Nonetheless, AF has been in the WS of Melb. since 1871 (Williamstown), is a traditional strong AF heartland, & is struggling cf. soccer GR regd. nos.
I have been referring above to the western suburbs of Melb.- & said above the WRFL (which covers the western suburbs) has c.209 jnr teams (male & female).
I distinguish the WS/WRFL from the EDFL, as the EDFL covers the NW suburbs(which does have more AF regd. nos.). I would not, for eg, consider Keilor, Essendon, Strathmore etc "WS".
The Riddell League covers more outlying areas.

I certainly would not call Geelong part of the WS/Melb.suburbia. I did not know there were WS jnr or senior clubs playing in the Geelong League -which ones?

2) A colleague told me recently there were c. 209 jnr. male & female AF teams in the WRFL.
I think it is common knowledge soccer has FAR more regd. nos. than AF there. I assure you I'd be very happy to be proved wrong.

Jnr. & snr. teams (M& F), Auskick, AFL 9's, Masters, & school teams (M & F) should be included in GR AF.
For soccer regd. GR nos., all M &F small-sided games, Futsal, jnr & snr teams, school teams, Masters should be included.
What are your estimates? Care to provide a break-up between M&F; & break- up the WS & NW suburbs if you prefer.

3)Do you consider GR AF to be doing well in the WS, considering it is a traditional heartland area?
How much responsibility should the AFL have for the state of GR AF in the WS?
If GR AF is losing market share to other sports, do you think the GR AF community should hold the AFL to account (considering the vast salaries that are being paid to AFL executives, and other non-player remuneration received by those in the "football industry")?
Agitate for them to resign, or slash their remuneration?

My WRFL estimates are:-
.Jnr. male U8 to U17 teams -182
.Jnr. female U12 U15 U18 teams -27 /TOTAL 209
.Auskick WRFL area nos. -unknown
.WRFL area primary & secondary school teams -unknown

.Snr WRFL male (inc. U19) teams -60
.Snr WS female WRFL teams -5
.WRFL area Masters teams -10
.WRFL area AFL 9 teams -unknown

 

[NoobPie]

1) GWS metro area (the area for which GM above provided the no. of 155 jnr. AF teams -which did not include ACT, sthn. NSW) certainly covers a much wider geographic area than the WS of Melb; & GWS has over 2,000,000 people (much bigger pop. than the WS of Melb.). Up until very recently, GR AF hardly existed in this huge area -but strong growth has occurred, of a very low base, since GWS was created. This is not a coincidence.

Nonetheless, AF has been in the WS of Melb. since 1871 (Williamstown), is a traditional strong AF heartland, & is struggling cf. soccer GR regd. nos.
I have been referring above to the western suburbs of Melb.- & said above the WRFL (which covers the western suburbs) has c.209 jnr teams (male & female).
I distinguish the WS/WRFL from the EDFL, as the EDFL covers the NW suburbs(which does have more AF regd. nos.). I would not, for eg, consider Keilor, Essendon, Strathmore etc "WS".
The Riddell League covers more outlying areas.

I certainly would not call Geelong part of the WS/Melb.suburbia. I did not know there were WS jnr or senior clubs playing in the Geelong League -which ones?

Geelong is certainly not the western suburbs of Melbourne but I it is certainly relevant to GR AF if there are clubs from there playing in the Geelong league....as it happens, it looks like there is only a St Albans club in there. Again, football might be stronger in the NW but the EDFL certainly has a bigger population catchment. WRFL barely covers 2&1/2 LGAs (Wyndham, Hobsons and half of brimbank)

2) A colleague told me recently there were c. 209 jnr. male & female AF teams in the WRFL.
I think it is common knowledge soccer has FAR more regd. nos. than AF there. I assure you I'd be very happy to be proved wrong.

Jnr. & snr. teams (M& F), Auskick, AFL 9's, Masters, & school teams (M & F) should be included in GR AF.
For soccer regd. GR nos., all M &F small-sided games, Futsal, jnr & snr teams, school teams, Masters should be included.
What are your estimates? Care to provide a break-up between M&F; & break- up the WS & NW suburbs if you prefe

Obviously I don't have access to a detailed breakdown of football and soccer participation in the western suburbs across that level of detail...

Registered junior teams though, football is streets ahead of soccer going of the online results

Take the under 15 boys

There are 53 under 15 boys teams in total across this area

http://websites.sportstg.com/comp_info.cgi?c=1-25-0-450187-0&a=LADDER
http://websites.sportstg.com/comp_info.cgi?c=0-3922-0-448114-0&a=LADDER

Compared to just 26 in the Western area of the FFV (which also includes teams from melton and gisborn that are represented in the Riddle district in football) and there might be up to a dozen more playing in the "north" region and the NPL

http://websites.sportstg.com/comp_info.cgi?c=1-8746-0-441047-0&a=LADDER

So it is not even close really, particularly once you've factored the higher numbers requirement

3)Do you consider GR AF to be doing well in the WS, considering it is a traditional heartland area?

It seems pretty healthy to me

How much responsibility should the AFL have for the state of GR AF in the WS?

They are ultimately responsible for the health of the game...I would suggest AFL Victoria have more direct responsibility

If GR AF is losing marketshare to other sports, do you think the GR AF community should hold the AFL to account (considering the vast salaries that are being paid to AFL executives, and other non-player remuneration received by those in the "football industry")?
Agitate for them to resign, or slash their remuneration?

The AFL execs may be overpaid in the same way that all sporting and other execs are overpaid nowadays. GM earns about the same as the CEO of the FFA with a competition with 10 times the turnover.

You're generally one of the better posters around here but these "agitating for mass resignations at AFL House" aren't your best work

My WRFL estimates are:-
.Jnr. male U8 to U17 teams -182
.Jnr. female U12 U15 U18 teams -27 /TOTAL 209
.Auskick WRFL area nos. -unknown
.WRFL area primary & secondary school teams -unknown

.Snr WRFL male (inc. U19) teams -60
.Snr female WRFL teams -5
.WRFL area Masters teams -10
.WRFL area AFL 9 teams -unknown

BTW, the earlier underage, boys and girls play together

I'm not sure why you think these numbers are so terrible? This is a catchment of barely more than 400k people

 

[Gigantor]

Geelong is certainly not the western suburbs of Melbourne but I it is certainly relevant to GR AF if there are clubs from there playing in the Geelong league....as it happens, it looks like there is only a St Albans club in there. Again, football might be stronger in the NW but the EDFL certainly has a bigger population catchment. WRFL barely covers 2&1/2 LGAs (Wyndham, Hobsons and half of brimbank)

Don't forget Maribyrnong, which now includes the whole of the former City of Footscray and about half of the City Sunshine.

That takes in some very old and famous FDL clubs like West Footscray, North Footscray, Parkside, Kingsville, maybe even Braybrook.

 

[legend166]

The 'who would want to live in the Western Suburbs of Sydney?' thing is way overblown.

The Giants are not based in Western Sydney. I know, blah, blah council areas, LGAs, whatever. But as it stands today, and especially in the future, Homebush isn't going to be considered Western Sydney (unless you actually live in the Eastern Suburbs, then everything west of the Eastern Distributor is considered Western Sydney).

Everyone who's never actually been there hears western Sydney and they think of Mt Druitt. Spotless Stadium is 27km from Mt Druitt. It's only 19km from the SCG.

The whole of the inner west has been gentrified like crazy. All those suburbs along the Parramatta River have median house prices > $1.5 million at the low end. Hunters Hill is 15 minutes away and the median house price is $2.8 million! If they want trendy places, you've got the whole Newtown, Leichardt, Petersham, Balmain areas less than 30 minutes away (and less once they finish WestConnex).

We're more likely to see the Giants asking for COLA back than players leaving because they have to live in 'Western Sydney'.

Of course this isn't to say players won't leave, because until we start getting something close to parity in terms of players coming out of NSW we're going to see the go home factor remain. But it's not going to be because players don't want to live near the Giants base.

 

[Gigantor]

^ and thus the importance of the Northern academies

 

[NoobPie]

Don't forget Maribyrnong, which now includes the whole of the former City of Footscray and about half of the City Sunshine.

That takes in some very old and famous FDL clubs like West Footscray, North Footscray, Parkside, Kingsville, maybe even Braybrook.

Ahh, of course...most of Marybyrnong would be in the WRFL....so perhaps 3 and a bit LGAs all up

 

[BringBackTorps]

Geelong is certainly not the western suburbs of Melbourne but I it is certainly relevant to GR AF if there are clubs from there playing in the Geelong league....as it happens, it looks like there is only a St Albans club in there. Again, football might be stronger in the NW but the EDFL certainly has a bigger population catchment. WRFL barely covers 2&1/2 LGAs (Wyndham, Hobsons and half of brimbank)




Obviously I don't have access to a detailed breakdown of football and soccer participation in the western suburbs across that level of detail...

Registered junior teams though, football is streets ahead of soccer going of the online results

Take the under 15 boys

There are 53 under 15 boys teams in total across this area

http://websites.sportstg.com/comp_info.cgi?c=1-25-0-450187-0&a=LADDER
http://websites.sportstg.com/comp_info.cgi?c=0-3922-0-448114-0&a=LADDER

Compared to just 26 in the Western area of the FFV (which also includes teams from melton and gisborn that are represented in the Riddle district in football) and there might be up to a dozen more playing in the "north" region and the NPL

http://websites.sportstg.com/comp_info.cgi?c=1-8746-0-441047-0&a=LADDER

So it is not even close really, particularly once you've factored the higher numbers requirement




It seems pretty healthy to me




They are ultimately responsible for the health of the game...I would suggest AFL Victoria have more direct responsibility




The AFL execs may be overpaid in the same way that all sporting and other execs are overpaid nowadays. GM earns about the same as the CEO of the FFA with a competition with 10 times the turnover.

You're generally one of the better posters around here but these "agitating for mass resignations at AFL House" aren't your best work



BTW, the earlier underage, boys and girls play together

I'm not sure why you think these numbers are so terrible? This is a catchment of barely more than 400k people

My comments pertained specifically to GR AF in Melb.'s WESTERN suburbs, WRFL, & Western Jets ONLY -not the NW, EDFL, or Riddell League. I said above " I distinguish the WS/WRFL from the EDFL...as the EDFL covers the NW...I would not consider Essendon, Keilor, Strathmore etc as WS. The Riddell League covers outlying areas".

The WS have FAR more than 400,000 people. I will try to ascertain a current estimate.

You have not included any male or female (jnr. & snr) WS Melb. nos. for FUTSAL (which is a big local comp., also strong in schools, played 12 mnths a year); nor any of the WS jnr. or senior FEMALE soccer BIG nos. (school & comps.); nor Male school soccer teams; nor NPL Div.1 & 2; nor summer outdoor soccer comps; there are also private cos. offering soccer training, even for kids less than 5 y.o.

You believe GR AF nos. are stronger than soccer (club, school, Futsal, M & F, summer comp.) in the Melb. WS? (I am specifically not referring to the NW here, or above)

Do you believe that throughout ALL of Melb. since the 70's, GR AF has lost market share to soccer & basketball ie total soccer & basketball nos. have grown at a much higher rate than total GR AF nos.?

There is one area where it is incontrovertible that AF has grown at a much higher rate -paid staff in the "football industry" (sic). Incidentally, it has been reported today that Collingwood employs over 400 people, the number doubling in recent years. AFL HQ has also had strong growth.

 

[robbieando]

Incidentally, it has been reported today that Collingwood employs over 400 people, the number doubling in recent years.

What does Collingwood's employee numbers growing (or any other club for that matter) have to do with Grassroots Football? Their interest lies with the club first and foremost, not with the growth of the game. Also you've forgotten to see why their numbers have risen in such a manner, they have added a AFLW team and Netball Team into their club so course staff numbers will grow at Collingwood.

AFL HQ has also had strong growth.

Because they keep employing more and more development staff (shock horror at that thought), take more control of state bodies, start up the AFLW and staff that and created and fully staffed a media unit. But hey to you its all highly paid "AFL executives" only.

You do yourself a massive disservice with this crap

 

[BringBackTorps]

What does Collingwood's employee numbers growing (or any other club for that matter) have to do with Grassroots Football? Their interest lies with the club first and foremost, not with the growth of the game. Also you've forgotten to see why their numbers have risen in such a manner, they have added a AFLW team and Netball Team into their club so course staff numbers will grow at Collingwood.



Because they keep employing more and more development staff (shock horror at that thought), take more control of state bodies, start up the AFLW and staff that and created and fully staffed a media unit. But hey to you its all highly paid "AFL executives" only.

You do yourself a massive disservice with this crap

I assumed the 400 at Coll.FC includes its players, AFLW, & Netball players & coaches.
I believe all AFL Clubs should have the "interest and growth"of the game & GR, as being equal to their own Club interests (And when the former occurs, their own Club interests are generally well served).

Players come & go -as do the very well paid coaches & staff; but it is imperative for Clubs to remain, that is what their fans want -& it is in the game's long term interests.

AF generates huge sums -& decisions need to be made on priorities, & how these funds are allocated.
I prefer that MORE funds be spent on GR development, & I applaud more recruitment of GR Development Staff. Jeff Kennett & others have questioned AFL staffing/spending priorities. We have seen what happened to Canberra AF in the 80's (AF WAS no.1, then declined); & Tas. since the 90's -do you think the AFL devoted sufficient funds to those places?

Many AFL Clubs spend more money on their Football Depts. (not inc. player wages)/office staff than on player wages. I disagree with this -do you?

I disagree that a coach should be paid more than $1,000,000 pa (Many "supercoaches", on big salaries, failed miserably when going to new Clubs). There has been speculation that P.Roos might be offered $2,000,000 to coach. I disagree with this -do you?

Hundreds of Clubs have folded over the decades. The fabric/soul of many towns damaged, treasured memories, traditions & communities have suffered -this is not "crap".

Last year Frankston VFL folded, Pt Melb. VFL might follow in 2018 -both Clubs formed c. 130 years ago. What do you think about this? Is this bad for AF?
If individual TSL, WAFL, or SANFL Clubs die, do you think this would be detrimental for AF? For community connections?

Many GR Clubs have poor facilities. In drought years, played on hard & dangerous grounds -many players were injured in tackles, hitting the hard ground. I would like to see more financial assistance for these Clubs. Do you?

The VFA died, the TSL, WAFL, & SANFL crowds (once huge) have dwindled considerably -some are questioning their future existence. Do you think it would be detrimental for AF if these comps.die also?

From the 1970's, in the heartland AF states, at GR levels re regd. nos., how does the growth of AF cf. the growth of GR soccer & basketball compare?

EDIT:
I consider the AFL has done an excellent job in the NT; generally, is doing a good job in NSW & Qld.; AFLW launch has been excellent -but, arguably, should have been done in the 70's (rise of feminism & partial decline of "female stereotypes").

Do you believe the AFLW launch should have been done earlier? If so, why wasn't it?
(The 2017 costs to establish the AFLW have been very minor; sponsorship will cover most of the costs; & C.Wilson has written that some of the AFLW games, obtaining ratings of c.1,000,000, will attract TV rights of c. $1,000,000 foe EACH game).
Do you believe the AFL/ VFL/SANFL/WAFL etc devoted enough resources (human & financial) to female GR AF since the 70's? If not, why not?

 

[madmug]

I assumed the 400 at Coll.FC includes its players, AFLW, & Netball players & coaches.
I believe all AFL Clubs should have the "interest and growth"of the game & GR, as being equal to their own Club interests (And when the former occurs, their own Club interests are generally well served).

Players come & go -as do the very well paid coaches & staff; but it is imperative for Clubs to remain, that is what their fans want -& it is in the game's long term interests.

AF generates huge sums -& decisions need to be made on priorities, & how these funds are allocated.
I prefer that MORE funds be spent on GR development, & I applaud more recruitment of GR Development Staff. Jeff Kennett & others have questioned AFL staffing/spending priorities. We have seen what happened to Canberra AF in the 80's, & Tas. since the 90's -do you think the AFL devoted sufficient funds there?

Many AFL Clubs spend more money on their Football Depts. (not inc. player wages)/office staff than on player wages. I disagree with this -do you?

I disagree that a coach should be paid more than $1,000,000 pa (Many "supercoaches"failed miserably when going to new Clubs). There has been speculation that P.Roos might be offered $2,000,000 to coach. I disagree with this -do you?

Hundreds of Clubs have folded over recent decades. The fabric/soul of many towns damaged, treasured memories, traditions & communities have suffered -this is not "crap".

Last year Franston VFL folded, Pt Melb. VFL might follow in 2018 -both Clubs formed c. 130 years ago. What do you think about this? Is this bad for AF?
If individual TSL, WAFL, or SANFL Clubs die, do you think this would be detrimental for AF?

Many GR Clubs have poor facilities. In drought years, played on hard & dangerous grounds -many players were injured in tackles, hitting the hard ground. I would like to see more financial assistance for these Clubs. Do you?

The VFA died, the TSL, WAFL, & SANFL crowds (once huge) have dwindled considerably -some are questioning their future existence. Do you think it would be detrimental for AF if these comps.die also?

From the 1970's, in the heartland AF states, at GR levels re regd. nos., how does the growth of AF cf. the growth of GR soccer & basketball compare?

I consider the AFL has done an excellent job in the NT; & generally, is doing a good job in NSW & Qld.

My experience on BF leads me to think that the majority on here couldn't care less about AR in general, certainly not about GR AR.

Their interest starts & stops at their VFL/AFL attachments. The only time AR means anything to them is when considering who they may be able to draft next time, or criticising new draftees as useless or pathetic. Seeing their once regional club now playing in the national level AFL is all they GARA (Give A Rats A) about.

The AFL itself takes on the role of guardian of the code. I dont see them doing much except try to milk community footy for as many elite players as they can & do as little as they can to help such junior clubs. The actual health of the clubs that provide young players with their junior footy experience seems pretty irrelevant to the AFL office. Its only in the elite stream that the AFL bother with GR footy at all.

 

[robbieando]

I assumed the 400 at Coll.FC includes its players, AFLW, & Netball players & coaches.
I believe all AFL Clubs should have the "interest and growth"of the game & GR, as being equal to their own Club interests (And when the former occurs, their own Club interests are generally well served).

You can believe that all you want, but regardless clubs will always put their own self interest before the growth of the game but hey its not like they put the VFL/AFL Commission in control of this area so they could focus on staying afloat themselves and then focus on winning Premierships. Some clubs will have a higher interest in grassroots football than others because of where they are located but never at the expense of the clubs success at the end of the day. Clubs are there to win Premierships not grassroots football.

Players come & go -as do the very well paid coaches & staff; but it is imperative for Clubs to remain, that is what their fans want -& it is in the game's long term interests.

Ask fans want they want - Premierships or growth in the grassroots what do you really think they will answer?

AF generates huge sums -& decisions need to be made on priorities, & how these funds are allocated.
I prefer that MORE funds be spent on GR development, & I applaud more recruitment of GR Development Staff. Jeff Kennett & others have questioned AFL staffing/spending priorities. We have seen what happened to Canberra AF in the 80's, & Tas. since the 90's -do you think the AFL devoted sufficient funds there?

You want everyone from the AFL commission and its executive to the AFL Clubs to fund, control and look after grassroots football without knowing who does what, throw money at it and hope that will solve everything. It won't. Before we head towards more funding (Again!) we as a code need to review where grassroots football is at and whether throwing money at it will solve the issues it has. Don't get me wrong there is work to be done at the grassroots level, but it has to be done right otherwise we'll just keep ending up here.

But to the staffing question (which was the only thing I raised along with the point of clubs), you only raise it in terms of executive pay and while its fair to question if the people doing the job are doing it right, cutting the money available won't solve the problems just make them worse as we won't be able to get the best people into the executive and therefore working in areas they control such as grassroots development.

As for the ACT and Tas in the 80's and the 90's thats more a question for the controlling body for each at that time before they changed over to AFL control at a much later time. Over the last decade they have benefited from game development officers, Academies, player visits, and AFL matches being played, so the AFL is doing much more than was previously done. But that is a discussion that I never raised nor have interest in.

Many AFL Clubs spend more money on their Football Depts. (not inc. player wages)/office staff than on player wages. I disagree with this -do you?

I do. Why shouldn't clubs spend this money in an attempt to improve their football departments? Its not going to go anywhere else other than sit in a bank

I disagree that a coach should be paid more than $1,000,000 pa (Many "supercoaches"failed miserably when going to new Clubs). There has been speculation that P.Roos might be offered $2,000,000 to coach. I disagree with this -do you?

If a club wants to spend that money and they have it, then I have no issue with it. You act as if this is money that is being taken away from grassroots football when its not. Clubs can spend how they like. You forget that the AFL does require clubs and players to partake in a set amount of grassroots activities each year under the CBA for the player and AFL distributions for the clubs. Maybe the grassroots clubs just can't leverage these events to their benefit....

Hundreds of Clubs have folded over recent decades. The fabric/soul of many towns damaged, treasured memories, traditions & communities have suffered -this is not "crap".

Last year Franston VFL folded, Pt Melb. VFL might follow in 2018 -both Clubs formed c. 130 years ago. What do you think about this? Is this bad for AF?

Of course its bad, but then again its hardly the responsibility of the AFL to force young men in small country towns to stay or to stop country clubs from offering obscene amounts of money to players they can't afford rather than give their local kids a chance (this I've seen many many times being from the bush so I won't be lectured to by someone who thinks this is a one way problem) or stopping Frankston from investing in the Pokies, these are just as bad and not the fault of the AFL. But I don't here you bring up these factors?

Many GR Clubs have poor facilities. In drought years, played on hard & dangerous grounds -many players were injured in tackles, hitting the hard ground. I would like to see more financial assistance for these Clubs. Do you?

I would love it, this we can agree on. The AFL should work with local councils to improve facilities no doubt about it.

The VFA died, the TSL, WAFL, & SANFL crowds (once huge) have dwindled considerably -some are questioning their future existence. Do you think it would be detrimental for AF if these comps.die also?

Think your carrying on a discussion that I never raised.

From the 1970's, in the heartland AF states, at GR levels re regd. nos., how does the growth of AF cf. the growth of GR soccer & basketball compare?

Again carrying on a discussion that I never raised.

I consider the AFL has done an excellent job in the NT; & generally, is doing a good job in NSW & Qld.

That's nice to know, but again never raised it

 

[BringBackTorps]

My experience on BF leads me to think that the majority on here couldn't care less about AR in general, certainly not about GR AR.

Their interest starts & stops at their VFL/AFL attachments. The only time AR means anything to them is when considering who they may be able to draft next time, or criticising new draftees as useless or pathetic. Seeing their once regional club now playing in the national level AFL is all they GARA (Give A Rats A) about.

The AFL itself takes on the role of guardian of the code. I dont see them doing much except try to milk community footy for as many elite players as they can & do as little as they can to help such junior clubs. The actual health of the clubs that provide young players with their junior footy experience seems pretty irrelevant to the AFL office. Its only in the elite stream that the AFL bother with GR footy at all.

The AFL is willing to pump $10,000,000+ pa, for the next 20 years, into both GWS & GC directly; & is also spending $ millions pa on GR AF in NSW & Qld.
Demetriou & McLachlan have both said publicly that the" next expansion team will probably be Tasmania". They know this will not deliver any major financial returns for the AFL -but, I assume, they want the Tas. elite recruitment goldmine to be resumed; & recognise they must assist a heartland area, since they have significant funds to do so.
It is also probable, IMO, that the fact Tasmania has 12 Senators is very important -one day, the AFL might want to rely on "favours" from a Fed. Govt.

You are probably correct that the average AFL fan is primarily most concerned with how their own AFL Club is performing.
I also believe, however, the average fan is very proud of the AUSTRALIAN game, wants it to prosper & considers GR strength & growth in ALL states very important. Opinion polls done in Vic. regularly show a clear majority, if there is to be an expansion, say it should be Tas. There would be little Vic. support for cutting a Vic. team (other states might differ).
From my Melb. experience in GR AF on C'tees, coaching, umpiring, I am certain that GR AF growth in ALL states is VERY important for a big majority of GR Officials.

It was refreshing to hear the new 2018 Sydney CEO, T. Harley, say yesterday that "I'm first and foremost a lover of the game".

I recall Demetriou saying several times, whilst he was AFL CEO, paraphrasing "When I leave the game, I will judge myself on it being in a better shape than when I started as CEO".

McLaclan is from the VAFA (never played in the AFL), as are other recent AFL executives, & my understanding is that he is still a regular, but "obscure" watcher of Uni Blues games (where he was a former captain, coach, & official).
There is, since 1892, a very strong culture of Amateurism in the VAFA (compulsory -but VAFA usually defeats the BIG cashed-up metro. & Country Leagues in rep. games); & of growing the game; & that playing AF should make you a better person/better member of the community. It is the only senior AF comp. in Australia that has banned the selling of alcohol at games -nor can spectators bring alcohol to games.
It was first in Aust. to introduce the Send-off card, & auto. life ban after 16 wks of career suspensions; & has banned the niggle, & audible swearing at games -even by officials!

The long-held VAFA official motto "For The Love Of The Game" is not just a cliche, & taken seriously by most VAFA officials. Playing GR AF should not be just about winning -& certainly not money (Networking is another thing!)

FWIW, I think we can regard McLachlan as a "man of his word" -thus, Tas. should be next in the AFL.

 

[Garlic muncher]

My experience on BF leads me to think that the majority on here couldn't care less about AR in general, certainly not about GR AR.

Their interest starts & stops at their VFL/AFL attachments. The only time AR means anything to them is when considering who they may be able to draft next time, or criticising new draftees as useless or pathetic. Seeing their once regional club now playing in the national level AFL is all they GARA (Give A Rats A) about.

The AFL itself takes on the role of guardian of the code. I dont see them doing much except try to milk community footy for as many elite players as they can & do as little as they can to help such junior clubs. The actual health of the clubs that provide young players with their junior footy experience seems pretty irrelevant to the AFL office. Its only in the elite stream that the AFL bother with GR footy at all.

ME on bigfooty leads me to think in general you are probably right, although there is a sizable minority that do hold the game itself dear, i am more of a football person than supporter of any club and have been that way for quite a while, but as a kid and into my 20's i was as one eyed Woodsman barracker as you can get.

Personally i think the AFL does a pretty good job with GR, there is unfortunately nothing they can do about changing demographics and population shifts in the country, but i think they understand the need for growth in non heartland states and the continuation of strength in the Southern states, it appears the only place that has gone backwards may be Tassie - is that the AFL's fault - yep probably, but not solely.

 

[Garlic muncher]

Geelong is certainly not the western suburbs of Melbourne but I it is certainly relevant to GR AF if there are clubs from there playing in the Geelong league....as it happens, it looks like there is only a St Albans club in there. Again, football might be stronger in the NW but the EDFL certainly has a bigger population catchment. WRFL barely covers 2&1/2 LGAs (Wyndham, Hobsons and half of brimbank)




Obviously I don't have access to a detailed breakdown of football and soccer participation in the western suburbs across that level of detail...

Registered junior teams though, football is streets ahead of soccer going of the online results

Take the under 15 boys

There are 53 under 15 boys teams in total across this area

http://websites.sportstg.com/comp_info.cgi?c=1-25-0-450187-0&a=LADDER
http://websites.sportstg.com/comp_info.cgi?c=0-3922-0-448114-0&a=LADDER

Compared to just 26 in the Western area of the FFV (which also includes teams from melton and gisborn that are represented in the Riddle district in football) and there might be up to a dozen more playing in the "north" region and the NPL

http://websites.sportstg.com/comp_info.cgi?c=1-8746-0-441047-0&a=LADDER

So it is not even close really, particularly once you've factored the higher numbers requirement




It seems pretty healthy to me




They are ultimately responsible for the health of the game...I would suggest AFL Victoria have more direct responsibility




The AFL execs may be overpaid in the same way that all sporting and other execs are overpaid nowadays. GM earns about the same as the CEO of the FFA with a competition with 10 times the turnover.

You're generally one of the better posters around here but these "agitating for mass resignations at AFL House" aren't your best work



BTW, the earlier underage, boys and girls play together

I'm not sure why you think these numbers are so terrible? This is a catchment of barely more than 400k people

I dis a quick count on sporting pulse and got 205 teams (WRFL), SFA under 8 teams, which says to me a lot of that age group is in house ( intra club) and of course auskick is below that, FME your auskick base is about 40% of your average junior football, so if your club has 500 players around 200 + are in your various auskick teams, Pre primary, year 1,2,and 3

To work out whether footy is doing OK as a % of population you really need to know the population it is drawing from and compare it to other areas of Melbourne and even other cities.

 

[madmug]

ME on bigfooty leads me to think in general you are probably right, although there is a sizable minority that do hold the game itself dear, i am more of a football person than supporter of any club and have been that way for quite a while, but as a kid and into my 20's i was as one eyed Woodsman barracker as you can get.

Personally i think the AFL does a pretty good job with GR, there is unfortunately nothing they can do about changing demographics and population shifts in the country, but i think they understand the need for growth in non heartland states and the continuation of strength in the Southern states, it appears the only place that has gone backwards may be Tassie - is that the AFL's fault - yep probably, but not solely.

With the social change, I Agree.

Social change has affected all levels of community sport. As I've discussed, the fact of under investment in Tasmanian football & the lack of our own AFL club to stimulate interest & finances back in the game, like in WA & SA for example, has proven a double whammy which hasn't happened in any other state. The NT play in the opposite season & is an attraction for interstate player, so its club footy is maintained at a reasonable level. The AFL heavily support the NT Thunder team.

I also think the current blight of drugs & poker machines has had a huge affect on our community & its various clubs. Sports clubs here dont have pokies, which in one way I'm glad, but its an income stream that would have helped. But better not to sell your soul I believe.

Blaming clubs for being complicit in the poor position football finds itself in, is like blaming the poor for being poor. They dont have the resources to counter the effects of social change. So In our case its clearly an uneven playing field which has doubly hit us.

So yes, it may not be totally the AFLs fault. But they have total control of the game here. They can counter many of the effects of social change, but to a great extent, they have clearly chosen not to. The FIFO clubs have not helped to any real effect either.