Mega Thread The "Will GWS make it" megathread (NO similar threads will be allowed)

[Rob]

I was watching the 7:30 report last night and saw the piece on The Wanderers. Knowing nothing really about the A-league or Western Sydney I was pretty impressed by the passion of all the fans. For the GWS fans is this simply due to all the die hard soccer fans in the area or was there aspects of how the club was established that made it more successful?

Obviously the two teams are very different as GWS is essentially encouraging people in the area to follow AFL while The Wanderers are tapping into generations of soccer fans who already have their rituals and passion for their sport.

I guess my question is do you see any strategies that The Wanderers used to build a fan base that you think GWS could learn from?

Yeah, winning.

 

[Our Game]

Yeah, winning.

See how good the WSW go if they are on the bottom for 3 years.This is typical soccer hype same as "we are going to be code #1 soon" bulldust.

Have a look at the AFL Commission and see the quality of the people on and compare with the FFA who have basically Lowey.

The AFL has every right to play hard ball with a compeditor - thats what business is all about (checkout if Coles and Woolworths give each other a handup)and the sports entertainment business in Australia is very big business The Jews who are some of the best and most successful bussines people in the world have a saying "Business is war" you take no prisoners.

 

[Gigantor]

Yeah, winning.

Winning makes the world go round.

You need a lot of credits in the bank to withstand an indifferent win-loss ratio.

 

[Rob]

Winning makes the world go round.

You need a lot of credits in the bank to withstand an indifferent win-loss ratio.

I reckon you switch the on field results of both teams and the positions in the market would be switched as well. People forget that the first 2 years of GWS existence they were statistically the worst team in AFL history. The Swans won 3 spoons in a row, but comparatively they were ******* world beaters compared to GWS in 2012 and 2013. Sydney's worst year they went 1-19 and had a % of 63.3. GWS % in 2012 was 46.2. A massive difference.

But most importantly, I doubt either team would have had an iota of difference in support if the other team didn't exist. The way it's talked about as if the Wanderers success has had a major impact on the Giants is utterly laughable. There would not be a person that has decided to support the Wanderers that would have otherwise bought a Giants membership. Not only do they play at different times of the year, the largest spectator sport is rugby league FFS. It's like saying the Victory's success has impacted the Storm.

 

[mcgarnacle]

Yeah, winning.

building a squad which featured 80% of players who had never played AFL footy or even been at an AFL club, others who were geriatrics merely padding their retirement nest egg, making the face of the club some bloke who also never played league footy or much footy at all for that matter, and finally, employing a coach who was losing touch with the modern game......

all that probably wasn't too smart.

 

[Colonial]

building a squad which featured 80% of players who had never played AFL footy or even been at an AFL club, others who were geriatrics merely padding their retirement nest egg, making the face of the club some bloke who also never played league footy or much footy at all for that matter, and finally, employing a coach who was losing touch with the modern game......

all that probably wasn't too smart.

Maybe if we were offered worthy trades for our draft picks things would be different.

 

[mcgarnacle]

Maybe if we were offered worthy trades for our draft picks things would be different.

that isn't what I meant. as I have said all along, it comes back to the poor way the AFL set up the club on its introduction - giving the team an abundance of selections in the main draft rather than ensuring the club were able to draft some AFL players in their prime in an expansion draft. the appointment of Sheedy. the Folau experiment. poor, poor decisions all round.

but since you've brought this up, SOS didn't help the club handle what they were dealt by the AFL either.

the incumbent clubs already had their players. it was the Giants who had to build a team, and so, they were the ones who had to be aggressive and make their offers, not the existing clubs.

it wasn't a game of poker. everyone knew what the Giants had in terms of consideration, i.e., the picks. the Giants didn't have the upper hand in these negotiations and never would have, but tried to play that way.

 

[Colonial]

that isn't what I meant. as I have said all along, it comes back to the poor way the AFL set up the club on its introduction - giving the team an abundance of selections in the main draft rather than ensuring the club were able to draft some AFL players in their prime in an expansion draft. the appointment of Sheedy. the Folau experiment. poor, poor decisions all round.

but since you've brought this up, SOS didn't help the club handle what they were dealt by the AFL either.

the incumbent clubs already had their players. it was the Giants who had to build a team, and so, they were the ones who had to be aggressive and make their offers, not the existing clubs.

it wasn't a game of poker. everyone knew what the Giants had in terms of consideration, i.e., the picks. the Giants didn't have the upper hand in these negotiations and never would have, but tried to play that way.

Hey im not saying we havent made mistakes. But to say we have done nothing but is morr than a stretch.
So we should of just handed over the top picks for spuds and retirees?

Actually dont answer. Its been done to death on this thread and many others

 

[Footy Smarts]

WSW's success is pretty irrelevant to GWS. But the way each team was set up shows that I think the AFL's made some mistakes. Of course the FFA had a lot more to work with given the support for soccer in the west but they also seem to have engaged a lot better with the community and given them a team that actually represents the team.

I think there have been 4 huge mistakes made by the AFL. The major one is naming it "Greater" Western Sydney and trying to appeal to everyone. Greater Western Sydney doesn't resonate with anybody. Along with that they then based the team barely in the West at all. The Sydney CBD is as close to their ground as most of the Western suburbs are. Throw in a team that sets records for its poor performances and shifts a bunch of games to Canberra and it looks like a bit of a recipe in how not to win over a hostile territory.

Hopefully it ends up working and I'm sure when the team starts winning games the crowds will increase somewhat. But it looks like a really, really long road from here and some of the start-up decisions have been terrible. The problem is that even if it shows no signs of working the AFL will still throw money and success at it to try and win over Sydney. Unfortunately the losers out of that are the current clubs who struggle. If the AFL decides that Sydney and GWS would struggle to survive if they missed the 8 then they'll give them a lot of additional help making the competition even less fair.

 

[Roobs321]

Personally I don't really see WSW and GWS as clashing problems. I think both teams have taken the right approach towards their own particular context, and obviously the on-field brillance of the Wanderers has helped them a great deal. I think both clubs have engaged well with the community, but GWS obviously is taking a slightly less immediate approach. The general public image of a Wanderers fan and a Giants fan is also obviously different, Wanderers are beginning with passion, and Giants are beginning as a family-friendly club.

I think Western Sydney as a sporting region is the winner. I remember in the late 90s/early 00s the Wollongong region had a decent period of success, with the Wolves, Hawks and a final appearance from the just merged Dragons.

 

[Albert Ross]

WSW's success is pretty irrelevant to GWS. But the way each team was set up shows that I think the AFL's made some mistakes. Of course the FFA had a lot more to work with given the support for soccer in the west but they also seem to have engaged a lot better with the community and given them a team that actually represents the team.

WSW and GWS have very different stories. WSW is a team founded in the heartland of their code which has seen many representative teams in the national league and under any model at all should not have kept going broke.

I think there have been 4 huge mistakes made by the AFL. The major one is naming it "Greater" Western Sydney and trying to appeal to everyone. Greater Western Sydney doesn't resonate with anybody. Along with that they then based the team barely in the West at all. The Sydney CBD is as close to their ground as most of the Western suburbs are. Throw in a team that sets records for its poor performances and shifts a bunch of games to Canberra and it looks like a bit of a recipe in how not to win over a hostile territory.

You can't really raise the WSW which has successfully used that Western Sydney identity and been successful, and then suggest that model doesn't work in relation to the AFL. Really is one or the other.

Hopefully it ends up working and I'm sure when the team starts winning games the crowds will increase somewhat. But it looks like a really, really long road from here and some of the start-up decisions have been terrible. The problem is that even if it shows no signs of working the AFL will still throw money and success at it to try and win over Sydney. Unfortunately the losers out of that are the current clubs who struggle. If the AFL decides that Sydney and GWS would struggle to survive if they missed the 8 then they'll give them a lot of additional help making the competition even less fair.

Yes it is a long term thing. But the questions are

1. Should there be 2 teams in Sydney to ensure there is an AFL game every week in the largest media market in the country?
2. Where should that team be based, if not Western Sydney where?
3. Would delaying the decision make the team any more likely to succeed?

Once the AFL had their strategic decision to have the 2nd team, most of the rest decided itself. And although it will probably fail, starting in 2012 might give them more chance of succeeding than starting in 2030.

 

[mcgarnacle]

WSW and GWS have very different stories. WSW is a team founded in the heartland of their code which has seen many representative teams in the national league and under any model at all should not have kept going broke.

WSW is a team in a league which is ranked 99th its sport in the world. It's national team is now ranked in the 90s too.

The A-league doesn't have the best exponents of its sport in the world, yet they were extremely concious of ensuring that Western Sydney could put together a team that was competitive for the league. The concessions weren't ridiculous at all and agreed to by all clubs.

The AFL is a league featuring the best athletes of Australian Rules Football. Instead of ensuring that the club could build its list with some AFL standard players via an expansion draft, they instead opted for the mentality that is rife in the AFL - the obsession with youth.

The AFL is one of the very few (probably the only in fact) top of the pyramid leagues in its sport where teams use the elite arena for development. Lower tier leagues should be used for this purpose, not the elite league.

This philosophy is probably accepted in the AFL states where there has traditionally been little competition against the sport, and where clubs that aren't competitive have conditioned supporters to accept rebuilding and development teams of young players as normal practice. Such a concept is foreign in NSW & QLD as it is in most places in the world. A team in a big league is expected to be competitive and must be seen to have performance goals now as well as in the future.

The Swans realised this and avoided bottoming out as much as possible for the 15-20 years after the 1996 GF by regularly trading picks for established AFL players at other clubs. They didn't do it by going for top shelf. They did it by recruiting value and based on their need. It's taken a long time of sustained finals performances to rid the club of the loser tag that practically killed it in the early 90s.

So it's astounding that the AFL implemented recruiting tools for GWS which didn't it protect it from becoming the easy beats of the competition. Unfortunately, it's given the perception of the Giants as one of a struggling losing club.

The colours are also odd, considering that they're practically the same as one of the major four NRL clubs that draw support from Western Sydney. It's hard to see too many supporters of Parramatta, Penrith, & (the Bankstown & Liverpool half of) Canterbury bulldogs getting too enthusiastic about the Giants as their second team when they look like their rugby league rivals the Wests Tigers.

In contrast, the Wanderers have united all of Western Sydney under a banner of strength & success. From their playing strip, active supporter passion to their Asian Champions League win. This wasn't rigged. They have gone through the quarters, semis and the final of that comp under the same rules which hamper every other A-league club in that competition.............and they defeated cashed up teams of the region which don't employ salary caps. An unbelievable achievement.

 

[Footy Smarts]

You can't really raise the WSW which has successfully used that Western Sydney identity and been successful, and then suggest that model doesn't work in relation to the AFL. Really is one or the other.

Putting "Greater" in front of it is just dumb. The idea of general names appealing to more people is laughable. Western Sydney is a broad area encapsulating a number of suburbs. Greater Western Sydney is a made up area that apparently includes Canberra. When you're going into a place where the default position is hostility to the sport then putting such a generic name and playing games in a different city is unlikely to be looked upon favourably.

Yes it is a long term thing. But the questions are

1. Should there be 2 teams in Sydney to ensure there is an AFL game every week in the largest media market in the country?
2. Where should that team be based, if not Western Sydney where?
3. Would delaying the decision make the team any more likely to succeed?

1. I don't really see the need for a 2nd Sydney team but for the sake of discussion let's say there is a need.

2. Of course Western Sydney makes the most sense. But actually put it in Western Sydney. The AFL went for government dollars for a state of the art stadium. But they had to make concessions which meant they don't actually play in Western Sydney. They also get kicked out each year for the show so they have to move games to Canberra. They would've been much better going for a ground in Parramatta or Blacktown or frankly anywhere remotely towards the middle of the suburbs that make up West Sydney. Instead they play 10km east of Parramatta which itself isn't very far West in terms of Western Sydney.

To me what the AFL have done with setting up the team would be like the NRL saying they're going to expand into Geelong. But then, because they got a government grant they decide to play their games in Lara, except for 2-3 games a year which they play in Bendigo when they're kicked out of their normal ground. They call the team "Greater Bellarine Pirates", put them in ugly colors with nothing to do with the area and then have them be a complete rabble on-field for a number of years. It's not likely to have people flocking through the gates is it.

3. Timing is in no way the issue. At best this was going to take a long time to become popular. I fear that the AFL's horrible decisions in setting up GWS mean it may never be sustainable.

 

[Swansujelly]

yeah, they missed a step by not locating actually in the West. Homebush is basically inner west these days. i remember when it was being discussed, Blacktown showgrounds was looked at and it would've been perfect. In the west, right next to a big train station, but $$$ prevailed and failure is on the cards. Tassie Giants has a nice ring to it!

 

[The_Flying_Egg]

WSW is a team in a league which is ranked 99th its sport in the world. It's national team is now ranked in the 90s too.

The A-league doesn't have the best exponents of its sport in the world, yet they were extremely concious of ensuring that Western Sydney could put together a team that was competitive for the league. The concessions weren't ridiculous at all and agreed to by all clubs.

Not every club was happy with the Wanderers concessions, I think you'll find Melbourne Heart were miffed/furious at the concessions allowed to WSW. A huge reason WSW have been a success is they were owned by the NSW obsessed Frank Lowy and the A League, and given far greater concessions than the previously introduced Melbourne Heart.
They were given great treatment before Lowy sold them to his mate. I love the A League but its pretty corrupt and as the Asian Cup scheduling shows completely NSW centric. Lowy was never going to let them be anything but a success

 

[Kwality]

Not every club was happy with the Wanderers concessions, I think you'll find Melbourne Heart were miffed/furious at the concessions allowed to WSW. A huge reason WSW have been a success is they were owned by the NSW obsessed Frank Lowy and the A League, and given far greater concessions than the previously introduced Melbourne Heart.
They were given great treatment before Lowy sold them to his mate. I love the A League but its pretty corrupt and as the Asian Cup scheduling shows completely NSW centric. Lowy was never going to let them be anything but a success

I share many similar views BUT that Sydney has not held a pre eminate position on the pitch has held the game back nationally. Same in basketball.

The WSW tapped into a reservoir of disillusioned fans just as Freo & Port have done in fertile AFL markets.

 

[Colonial]

yeah, they missed a step by not locating actually in the West. Homebush is basically inner west these days. i remember when it was being discussed, Blacktown showgrounds was looked at and it would've been perfect. In the west, right next to a big train station, but $$$ prevailed and failure is on the cards. Tassie Giants has a nice ring to it!

Not the brightest spark are you. Maybe go through the thread or maybe google to see why we arent at blacktown.
As your above comment shows you havent a clue

 

[Ichabod Noodle]

And it's a 20 year plan....

It's just a pity the flogs on Big Footy and the likes of Carey and Lane can't see past the end of their nose let alone next week.

 

[Freomaniac]

Although they are struggling, giants list are not in their peak. Next 2-4 years will be crucial. As of right now,they remind me of the swans of the early 1990s. Once they get out of this tough spot,they will be finals contenders.

 

[Prince Imperial]

Would be interesting to know how club participation is going in Western Sydney in the above period. Whilst the participation increase sounds impressive, the AFL invests heavily in school competitions and school Auskick in the area and throughout NSW and Qld and it's not clear that any or much of the increase is due to the Giants. The last figures I've seen showed that junior/youth club participation actually declined 6% in Western Sydney during the period 2009-2012 (http://www.sportingpulse.com/get_file.cgi?id=2148289). It's obviously a long term project but the jury is still out whether the Giants are a better investment than the opportunity cost of the AFL investing more funding in junior game development than them.

 

[Ichabod Noodle]

Would be interesting to know how club participation is going in Western Sydney in the above period. Whilst the participation increase sounds impressive, the AFL invests heavily in school competitions and school Auskick in the area and throughout NSW and Qld and it's not clear that any or much of the increase is due to the Giants. The last figures I've seen showed that junior/youth club participation actually declined 6% in Western Sydney during the period 2009-2012 (http://www.sportingpulse.com/get_file.cgi?id=2148289). It's obviously a long term project but the jury is still out whether the Giants are a better investment than the opportunity cost of the AFL investing more funding in junior game development than them.

Our crowd figures are bulls#it
Our membership numbers are bulls#it
Now participation rates are bulls#it.



All I know is that there are more kids at training on a Tuesday and Thursday this year than last year and our club is fielding an under 9s for the first time ever.

Haters are always gonna hate I suppose.

 

[Colonial]

Would be interesting to know how club participation is going in Western Sydney in the above period. Whilst the participation increase sounds impressive, the AFL invests heavily in school competitions and school Auskick in the area and throughout NSW and Qld and it's not clear that any or much of the increase is due to the Giants. The last figures I've seen showed that junior/youth club participation actually declined 6% in Western Sydney during the period 2009-2012 (http://www.sportingpulse.com/get_file.cgi?id=2148289). It's obviously a long term project but the jury is still out whether the Giants are a better investment than the opportunity cost of the AFL investing more funding in junior game development than them.

We really cant win with you lot. We show we are at the grassroots boosting Australias game and you still look for negatives.

 

[Colonial]

Our crowd figures are bulls#it
Our membership numbers are bulls#it
Now participation rates are bulls#it.



All I know is that there are more kids at training on a Tuesday and Thursday this year than last year and our club is fielding an under 9s for the first time ever.

Haters are always gonna hate I suppose.

Don't forget;

Our colours are bulls#it
Our location is bulls#it
Our Name is bulls#it
Our Shirt is bulls#it
And lets not forget our fans are bulls#it because they aren't true.

 

[fishardansin]

Still think the AFL would have been better off just pouring money into junior footy, reducing TV rights to get FTA coverage into all states and then investing in increasing the interest in state leagues in NSW and Qld. That is where ex NRL players could go rather than big money current players.

The AFL should have cut the league to 12, not increased it.

 

[Colonial]

Still think the AFL would have been better off just pouring money into junior footy, reducing TV rights to get FTA coverage into all states and then investing in increasing the interest in state leagues in NSW and Qld. That is where ex NRL players could go rather than big money current players.

The AFL should have cut the league to 12, not increased it.

In Western Sydney you need something to aim for. The Giants are it.

Putting the Bombers hands up for extinction??