The ZOMG Online Poker is Rigged Thread

Jul 25, 2007
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If i'd put in 3k+ games into a game I thought was rigged I would probably have to sit back at some point and wonder what kind of sucker I am to continue dumping money into a game rigged for the Russians.

That would be my initial thought too.

The most amazing thing about poker in my opinion, and gambling in general, is how such a large % of people can end up as long term losers but still be convinced they are winners, through a combination of denial, creative accounting and, in blunt terms, stupidity.

It embarrasses me that such a high % of the poker playing people I know claim to be able to beat roulette.
 

The Passenger

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haven't lurked in these parts much due to not playing much poker due to finishing college. but now i'm back and got a job i intend to get back into pretty soon.

but this thread was irresistable.

ok great chat, im off to crown to win, lose or draw fair and square... cheers

the ironic thing about that is that live poker is just as likely to be rigged, and back in the day before tighter casino regulations any card game was far more rigged than online poker has been.

About the people playing, while my tin foil hat says maybe their is a conspiracy, I think that given the competitive international market that people smart enough to out the cheaters (such as PotRipper) will do that to any site that isnt fully above board.

that's the thing. there are a lot of people who are very smart playing online poker, and as soon as any irregularities occur over a period, they are onto it like that. which is how guys in the part have been caught using superuser accounts.

with all the software about these days, any sort of rigging is most likely to caught out very very quickly.

and in light of what happened at full tilt last year, any company on the rort would be taking stock very quickly and reviewing that policy. online poker is redicolously profitable for companies. i just can't see why any of them would risk it. for me it looks like one of the most profitable online businesses around. the expenditure would be (relatively speaking) low, and with rake coming from millions of hands per day.... it just boggles the mind that full tilt ****ed up the way they did. it's just such a profitable business without resorting to that.
 

b0ydman

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being manx, can i say this
they remove 12 cards many hands in tournies with many players
it narrows the field
they dont know WHO will win, butit creates more action
it also means more pockets,more hits, more outs,more often
and this is so that we.....REBUY

lay cheap games and laugh when busted by slim%ers

stay AWAY from cash tables. you are playing against people all IM each other, or sitting in the same room.

$3.50p/h doesn't sound like worth it to you or me, but i can show you 100,000 who know math who do like that offer

Reid. I have a poker night on Sat night eastern suburbs, doncaster way
$5 unlimited buy ins,game lasts about 4 hours. might be good to walk you through the algorithm

to others, stop the tin foil comments. they are uneccesary

he's half right,half blinded by bad beats
 
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Evidence that they remove 12 cards please?

And while its possible you are playing with people who are IMing, and best handing you, Occams razor again suggests it people who are BETTER then you beating you, and not some sort of tin foil hat theory.

I dont play any online cash. Why? Because at a buy-in level where it becomes worth it for me, I am probably an underdog right now, and will probably remain one until I put in a decent number of hands and actually start using a HUD.

I can speak for everyone else, but to me an unregulated private game with only me and a bunch of people that already know each other is a shitload scarier of a prospect then an online, independently tested and regulated international company. And yes, I know of two private games in Perth that were notorious for cheating during games, such as dealing cold-decks, premature rabbiting of community cards and chip stealing during games.

My favourite private game hand...

10 handed SnG, very first hand at 25/50 I think it was 4k starting stacks.

Two limps, I make it 200 with AKo. Two callers, the owner gives me a lot of flack for "raising the first hand" and then ships it for 4k. I call, someone folds, and before the last person acts, the current dealer announces "cards on your backs please". Host opens A4o, I open AKo, and the last villian mucks something.

Dealer runs out a board, all bricks, I win with AK high, but before I can scoop, host protests about how the premature opening of the cards affected the hand. He rules all money gets returned and the hand is ruled cancelled. I begin to argue, but am told to just accept it by another party.

I end up 2nd in the SnG, leave, and obviously never play again...
 

b0ydman

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Evidence that they remove 12 cards please?


ashley is 12 your age?
have you yet experienced a world where people play for real? im not referring to a few thousand dollars here and there either ashley
you really expect you are going to get "evidence" on a web site to and from strangers?


And while its possible you are playing with people who are IMing,
oh dear dear ash. possible?
this reads to me like you are a 2nd year grad student


and best handing you, Occams razor
occams?
grow up little uni student

again suggests it people who are BETTER then you beating you, and not some sort of tin foil hat theory.
tin foil? what are you on?
here's some from your course notes
ad hominem
non sequiter
ashley, grow up
you read like a prat


I dont play any online cash. Why? Because at a buy-in level where it becomes worth it for me, I am probably an underdog right now, and will probably remain one until I put in a decent number of hands and actually start using a HUD.
so do what tens of thousands of people do, play for entertainment

I can speak for everyone else,
i understand you meant "can't" there, either way its a redundant statement

but to me an unregulated private game with only me and a bunch of people that already know each other is a shitload scarier of a prospect then an online, independently tested and regulated international company.
with all respects ashley, you have no idea how the world works with statements like that

And yes, I know of two private games in Perth that were notorious for cheating during games, such as dealing cold-decks, premature rabbiting of community cards and chip stealing during games.

My favourite private game hand...


10 handed SnG, very first hand at 25/50 I think it was 4k starting stacks.

Two limps, I make it 200 with AKo. Two callers, the owner gives me a lot of flack for "raising the first hand" and then ships it for 4k. I call, someone folds, and before the last person acts, the current dealer announces "cards on your backs please". Host opens A4o, I open AKo, and the last villian mucks something.

Dealer runs out a board, all bricks, I win with AK high, but before I can scoop, host protests about how the premature opening of the cards affected the hand. He rules all money gets returned and the hand is ruled cancelled. I begin to argue, but am told to just accept it by another party.

I end up 2nd in the SnG, leave, and obviously never play again..
the guy was a tool
we play with unlimited rebuys, just raise the blinds to end a game after 4 or so hours
 

The Passenger

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You make it quite difficult to quote you, but anyway, I will make some kind of attempt to soldier on.

ashley is 12 your age?
have you yet experienced a world where people play for real? im not referring to a few thousand dollars here and there either ashley
you really expect you are going to get "evidence" on a web site to and from strangers?

By experienced a world, do you mean play for thousands of dollars, watch people play for thousands of dollars, or both, and online or live.

I have no idea what you are actually trying to saying with this statement, but if you are questioning whether it is possible to determine whether there are problems with the Pokerstars algorithm, it has been done before with previous poker sites, as well as detecting unusually large winners such as potripper.

If that wasnt what you were getting at, then I would suggest improving your English skills to a level someone can understand.

FWIW, Ashley12 is a combination of my first name and my old football number, I am 23 years old.

And while its possible you are playing with people who are IMing,
oh dear dear ash. possible?
this reads to me like you are a 2nd year grad student

No offence, but your post reads like a 9 year old rushing through Mavis Beacon teaches typing.

Unsure if you got it or not but IMing = instant messaging. Is it possible, certainly, but people who put in a lot of effort online will be able to see if people are playing "differently" vs certain people or are putting on an act in certain spaces.

This thread for example, was a fantastic example of someone getting found out through to some excellent, though somewhat tedious, detective work about a prop bet someone cheated on

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/5...-prop-bet-see-confessions-cheating-mh-736624/

There are links in the initial post to the main points where the lies get undone.

and best handing you, Occams razor
occams?
grow up little uni student

Again, completely unsure if this is someone who doesnt understand the concept, or is just generally upset at people who use unusual words.

Occams razor is basically the concept that the most logical and simplest explanation is usually the correct one. For example, a guy doesnt come to my party. He could either have forgot, or been ubducted by aliens. Its going to be the former obviously.

again suggests it people who are BETTER then you beating you, and not some sort of tin foil hat theory.
tin foil? what are you on?
here's some from your course notes
ad hominem
non sequiter
ashley, grow up
you read like a prat

Poker, like sex, is something that lots of people think they are really good at, but a lot arent (thank Stewart Scott for that quote). And in a subzero-sum equity game such as poker, there has to be a loser or two in there somewhere.

I dont play any online cash. Why? Because at a buy-in level where it becomes worth it for me, I am probably an underdog right now, and will probably remain one until I put in a decent number of hands and actually start using a HUD.
so do what tens of thousands of people do, play for entertainment

People can play poker for lots of reasons, including the mental challenge, the social side, the gamble, the potential to make a profit etc... However, I generally dont enjoy playing poker, particularly the lonely world of online grinding. I respect people that can beat the online games, but for the most part, I dont want to be spending extended time in front of a computer screen then I already do for university etc...

Dont get me wrong, I actually dont mind occasionally splashing around playing 60/45 in a .25/.50 cash game every now and again with friends that deal at the casino, but for the most part I would much rather spend my time with the same people doing something else, such as shooting pool, having a few drinks, or being at the pub. Or all three at the pub haha.

I can speak for everyone else,
i understand you meant "can't" there, either way its a redundant statement

True, a typo, my bad...


but to me an unregulated private game with only me and a bunch of people that already know each other is a shitload scarier of a prospect then an online, independently tested and regulated international company.
with all respects ashley, you have no idea how the world works with statements like that

And why is that, because I dont actually run my own game, or have played in online games (because I have done both in the short term, the running the game was for ridiculously low stakes, so there was very little reason to collude for $2 or whatever).

This is your post from another thread... and I made the post about an unregulated game before I saw this post of yours...


...that said i play home games and have marked the deck. i know every card and act as dealer, making it even easier to know who has what. i play with donkeys for fun and its a $30 night all up. %4 unlimited rebuys until blinds eat up the buy in....

From http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showpost.php?p=23778824&postcount=162

I can't speak for everyone else, but the fact that the dealer is admitting to marking a deck and dealing (and I presume also participating) is scary as all hell for me.

The fact you invited another poster to play in your games is LOL particularly if the other player actually participated.

And yes, I know of two private games in Perth that were notorious for cheating during games, such as dealing cold-decks, premature rabbiting of community cards and chip stealing during games.

My favourite private game hand...

SNIP

I end up 2nd in the SnG, leave, and obviously never play again..
the guy was a tool
we play with unlimited rebuys, just raise the blinds to end a game after 4 or so hours

I would be wary to play with an unfixed time limit at when the rebuys stopped. It might not seem like much for the average player, but push/fold ranges do change depending on how long you can rebuy for, and what the average stack will be when you finish the rebuy period. But that is just me.

---------------------------

Finally, I can not prove the poker is completely pure (mainly because, like proving that God DOES NOT exist, is very difficult as a general rule), and to be honest it isnt. There are a number of scandals, shitfights and generally doucheness to ensure that the poker world is not free of this cheating including

- FTP debacle
- Epic Poker League debacle
- 200NL thread (actually a fascinating read, would recommend and read again)
- The Jono Karamalakis/Brendon Rubie scandal

And many others at a smaller level.

However, if people are going to make outrageous claims such as 12 cards have been removed etc... then they are going to either needed to be substantiated with solid evidence (not one hand as a "sample") or else posts will be deleted on the basis of incessant trolling. Again, anyone who wants to make an allegation either about ZOMG online is rigged, or ashley12 is a idiot, needs either to show their work, or have some justification.

Losing a 70/30 is not an example or rigged, winning a hand such as this hand is...

Stage #XXXXXXX: Holdem (1 on 1) Normal $200/$400 - 2008-12-20 04:15:23 (ET)
Table: FIR AVE (Real Money) Seat #4 is the dealer
Seat 4 - PHILHELLMUTH ($4495 in chips)
Seat 6 - DOUBLEBALLER ($7494 in chips)
PHILHELLMUTH - Posts small blind $100
DOUBLEBALLER - Posts big blind $200
*** POCKET CARDS ***
PHILHELLMUTH - Raises $300 to $400
DOUBLEBALLER - Raises $400 to $600
PHILHELLMUTH - Raises $400 to $800
DOUBLEBALLER - Calls $200
*** FLOP *** [Js Kc Kh]
DOUBLEBALLER - Checks
PHILHELLMUTH - Bets $200
DOUBLEBALLER - Raises $400 to $400
PHILHELLMUTH - Calls $200
*** TURN *** [Js Kc Kh] [2h]
DOUBLEBALLER - Bets $400
PHILHELLMUTH - Raises $800 to $800
DOUBLEBALLER - Raises $800 to $1200
PHILHELLMUTH - Calls $400
*** RIVER *** [Js Kc Kh 2h] [9c]
DOUBLEBALLER - Bets $400
PHILHELLMUTH - Calls $400
*** SHOW DOWN ***
DOUBLEBALLER - Shows [Kd Qh] (Three of a kind, kings)
PHILHELLMUTH - Mucks
PHILHELLMUTH Collects $5599 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($5600) | Rake ($1)
Board [Js Kc Kh 2h 9c]
Seat 4: PHILHELLMUTH (dealer) (small blind) won Total ($5599) HI: ($5599) [Mucked] [2s 10s]
Seat 6: DOUBLEBALLER (big blind) HI:lost with Three of a kind, kings [Kd Qh - B:Kh,P:Kd,B:Kc,P:Qh,B:Js]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...-hand-but-pot-gets-shipped-him-anyway-369065/
 

The Passenger

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- Epic Poker League debacle
- 200NL thread (actually a fascinating read, would recommend and read again)
- The Jono Karamalakis/Brendon Rubie scandal

any links for these.... no somewhat about the EPL thing but not really.

i've been out of the loop big time. wouldn't mind having an interesting read.
 

b0ydman

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ash, i think what i am trying to say is that you have over analysed something and are possibly too smart for yourself, relying on occam and demeaning comments like tin foil hat

all i can say is that your comment "independently tested and regulated international company" shows more faith that deserves.

these sites are owned by russian mafia, in the same way that the mob "owned" shops in brooklyn once upon a time

if you think "it is possible" that people IM each other, or are on multi speaker phones, and you are up against 5 guys in 1 room sitting on a 6 player table, you don't understand enough

what i post and how i post it is immaterial to these things
 
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Its just a lot more simple to say a statement such as "occams razor" rather then spending 3 paragraphs explaining the concept. If people dont understand these concepts, then I apologise. I have to be honest some times I get confused in being a uni student with what is obvious to some people and what isnt (apologies if that comes across as condescending).

That said, I (and I presume other people) are far more likely when reading an arguement between two people to believe the person that speaks/writes more fluently and doesnt resort to personal attacks then the other. The thread about MrCash (the guy masquerading as a woman) is a good example of this, where the OP is far more beliveable in the arguement compared to the idiot pretending to be female.

If the thought of playing against a large group of players that are cheating then why not play Zoom Poker (effectively Rush poker on FTP, but you play in a large group of players and your individual table content changes with each hand) or play only HU (1 on 1) or tournaments with large fields, making it harder to be exploited by colluders, such as 45 SnGs or regular tournaments. If they are willing to have a few thousand people gang up on one person in a ZOOM poker hand then well, what can you do :p

I have no doubt that cheating in all forms of poker (both live and online) happens, but I think you are going to be less likely to be cheated on a site with independent testing then a random small skin or a private poker game.

----------------------

BlackThunder

Jono K/Brenden Rubie dramabomb thread

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...-brendon-brendooor-brendon1717-rubie-1160414/

200NL prop bet thread (very long, but cliffs are provided)

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/5...-prop-bet-see-confessions-cheating-mh-736624/

The EPL has been a cluster**** from the start, but some of the major stories

Micheal DeVita, a registered sex offender, problems

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...ue-main-event-after-winning-20k-seat-1095973/

EPL declares bankruptcy, Commissioner Annie Duke still wants $$$

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...-get-paid-after-declaring-bankruptcy-1180793/

As well as that, there are other threads on

- 4th event getting cancelled as well as the $1million freeroll, a big reason as to why a lot of players played in these tough fields

- Chino Rheem winning an event, and having to use almost all of it to pay back debts.

and heaps more.

My favourite scam of the last few days has been the player masquerading as a woman to help get stakes and loans

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/news-views-gossip/mark275-ashleythegrinder-mrcash2006-1183719/

Like any industry, money does corrupt, and it is quite sad that people can become monsters when $$$ is on the line, and I have no doubt that if professional draw together, angry birds or stickman golf takes off then the same thing will happen in those "sports"
 
Great read.

I was playing live once and was dealt QQ. The player before me raised, I moved all in, the player after me also moved all in and the initial raiser called. The players on both sides of me had AA and I won with a Q on the flop. s**t happens.

Having said that, here's my addition to the "online poker is rigged" debate. On PokerStars if I think I might end up all in, I always make sure I move in rather than call, as I have noticed that the more aggressive you play, the "luckier" you get. This might explain the russians always win theory, because they are crazy aggressive. A russian player will bet and raise with absolutely nothing more often than not.

Cogitation time.
 

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I had set under set 3 times in 1 night live and also had more royal flushes live than online

Pretty sure live poker is rigged
 

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I had set under set 3 times in 1 night live and also had more royal flushes live than online

Pretty sure live poker is rigged

you guys wonder why no one bothers to post here, another bf boys club..

led by mr poker king ash... lol

let it go, and go buy your cars and houses with all the money you've all won off jokerstars.. lmfao

keep it real...
 
you guys wonder why no one bothers to post here, another bf boys club...

Are you a girl?

There's nothing wrong with that per se, its just that it would explain a lot.
 
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I had set under set 3 times in 1 night live and also had more royal flushes live than online

Pretty sure live poker is rigged

Actually I have had more Royals live then online as well (2 vs 1)

And last night I had KK vs AA against the only other stack playing 100bb plus, and lost with bottom two twice vs one pair hands.

RIGGED!!!!!!

-------------

RE: BigFooty boys club, just LOL.
 

b0ydman

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FWIW I had no input into either boydman and/or reidfactor getting banned.


did that post get memory holed again?

i can't believe people follow my posts to check up on me

even at 3am i get reported. some people need to get a life

bleedin stalkers.

FWIW no you didn't. i come from a place where a post like this is enough to get me red carded.

tragic eh

+12
 

Jimi

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PokerStars Hand #80670933468: Tournament #562854032, $6.42+$0.58 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2012/05/19 1:25:21 ET
Table '562854032 5' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: MaxThread (1055 in chips)
Seat 2: Onegig (8867 in chips)
Seat 5: Amaz318 (935 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 6: ducksnuts22 (2843 in chips)
Seat 7: artmartin (2375 in chips)
Seat 8: Iglu Man 8 (6790 in chips)
ducksnuts22: posts small blind 100
artmartin: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ducksnuts22 [Qd Qs]
Iglu Man 8: calls 200
MaxThread: folds
Onegig: folds
Amaz318: folds
ducksnuts22: raises 800 to 1000
artmartin: folds
Iglu Man 8: calls 800
*** FLOP *** [5h 3c Qc]
ducksnuts22: checks
Iglu Man 8: bets 600
ducksnuts22: calls 600
*** TURN *** [5h 3c Qc] [2s]
ducksnuts22: checks
Iglu Man 8: bets 1400
ducksnuts22: calls 1243 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (157) returned to Iglu Man 8
*** RIVER *** [5h 3c Qc 2s] [4c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ducksnuts22: shows [Qd Qs] (three of a kind, Queens)
Iglu Man 8: shows [2d Ad] (a straight, Ace to Five)
Iglu Man 8 collected 5886 from pot
ducksnuts22 finished the tournament in 17th place
serralheiro1 has returned
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 5886 | Rake 0
Board [5h 3c Qc 2s 4c]
Seat 1: MaxThread folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Onegig folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Amaz318 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: ducksnuts22 (small blind) showed [Qd Qs] and lost with three of a kind, Queens
Seat 7: artmartin (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: Iglu Man 8 showed [2d Ad] and won (5886) with a straight, Ace to Five


Rigged! Rigged I tells ya!
 
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Unlucky, but with 14 bigs you probably should have found a way to be AI preflop.

Preflop limp is pretty bad (unless you have a balanced limping range, which is almost impossible to have) and when raised 5x, you should be backraising AI as played.

Bad luck, but I think you played preflop about as bad as possible.
 

Jimi

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Unlucky, but with 14 bigs you probably should have found a way to be AI preflop.

Preflop limp is pretty bad (unless you have a balanced limping range, which is almost impossible to have) and when raised 5x, you should be backraising AI as played.

Bad luck, but I think you played preflop about as bad as possible.

I raised pre...
I checked the set in order to get all the chips in on the turn...which is what happened.
 
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