Themanbun's Midfield Minute

[Epictetus]

It's basic, lower div local footy nonsense. Forwards coming up to stoppage and not impacting, wingers pressing on laterals, mids getting sucked right into congestion and being too soft to impact and then not transitioning back.

Our midfield is so overrated it's frightening. And the way they play sucks, to top it off.

 

[Themanbun]

It's basic, lower div local footy nonsense. Forwards coming up to stoppage and not impacting, wingers pressing on laterals, mids getting sucked right into congestion and being too soft to impact and then not transitioning back.

Our midfield is so overrated it's frightening. And the way they play sucks, to top it off.

Except we'd get dropped at local footy if we did this as regularly as our first midfield choices do it.

 

[Themanbun]

With a bit of spare time over the weekend, I've gone through the around the ground stoppages and man on man work from the Carlton game.

Some of the efforts of LDU, Sheezel, and Powell in the last half of the first quarter in particular are really, really poor. 2 out of those 3 are meant to be leaders, and the other wanted to announce himself as a bona fide midfielder. They seem totally comfortable letting their man run forward of the ball and damage, and to make matters worse, they try to s cream at the wings for a handover (Stephens, Tucker, Colby, who were battling to stay with their own opponent) instead of actually putting their head down and running. They were choices each time, and frankly it's unacceptable.

 

[Themanbun]

I think this somewhat comes under midfield work but is more in line with Terrible Transitions. Georgey Wardlaw had just got a freekick pretty much at the middle of the ground.

If you've listened to John Longmire recently you know that this is the 'find one more zone'. But what are our midfielders doing, apart from Jy who makes a lead that everyone knows is too short.

Clogging the leading space. They are not only not doing anything, they're forcing Wardlaw to take the worst option. If Powell takes the not easy option, turns to face George, and makes a lead toward the bottom of the screen, he either drags his opponent with him and helps clear a lane, or he gives George an easy spot up into the launch pad. If Colby splits the other way I guarantee you someone will go with them. If not, they'll be opponent-less for a front and centre when they wheel around.

Midfielders should never, ever just be standing there in possibly the worst spot they can stand. You're either outside the 50 building a wall, or you're working to clear space for the forwards and stretch the ground.

Sometimes it's easy to blame the forwards, and don't get me wrong, they need to get on their bikes more.

But this comes down to midfield craft as well.

 

[giantroo]

 

[The Butcher]

Recently bye-byed coaches opinions are something alright. They could be spot on, meaning they cant coach, or they're mostly right but form them only in hindsight(too late), or they're more wrong than right. It's possible the exact same vision has completely different interpretations from winning coaches. Thus spoke zarathustra. I'm rewatching the tv show Lost. If you couldn't tell.

 

[Merlin007]

Forgive the repetition, but I'll say it again, our blokes are getting sucked into contests because they don't trust their mate to get the job done.

Or put another way, they're so desperate they're losing structure.

 

[Themanbun]

Forgive the repetition, but I'll say it again, our blokes are getting sucked into contests because they don't trust their mate to get the job done.

Or put another way, they're so desperate they're losing structure.

I think it's a bit of this. But I'm not sure how McKercher or Powell can look at Wardlaw in a contest and go "yeah I'm the man who can win that ball." Lol.

 

[Merlin007]

I think it's a bit of this. But I'm not sure how McKercher or Powell can look at Wardlaw in a contest and go "yeah I'm the man who can win that ball." Lol.

I agree with that too - there's a few too many "one arm out to get the ball" moments, but then it's mixed with "I'll leave my bloke to help someone who doesn't need it".

There's a lot of scrambled brains in the group.

 

[DuckYeah]

Forgive the repetition, but I'll say it again, our blokes are getting sucked into contests because they don't trust their mate to get the job done.

Or put another way, they're so desperate they're losing structure.

There is a message breakdown somewhere.

“You need to attack the footy when its your turn”

Player attacks footy

“Ah ****, that wasn’t your turn”

 

[perplexed]

We all get sick of hearing about how it will click, but with midfields, I think that is true. They need to play with each other for long enough to learn their role and to trust their teammates to play theirs.

I've mentioned this before, but at the start of last year Hawthorn chose four players they wanted as their centre square rotation and played them together until it worked. They really struggled at the start of the year, but by mid-year it had clicked. On talent, our centre square combination is much stronger than theirs. In practice, it isn't. At the moment we are running too many players through there: we've been running a six rotation, nobody else does that. Chose the best combination and back them in. Simpkin, LDU, Sheezel, Wardlaw, and when needed, Parker.

 

[DuckYeah]

We all get sick of hearing about how it will click, but with midfields, I think that is true. They need to play with each other for long enough to learn their role and to trust their teammates to play theirs.

I've mentioned this before, but at the start of last year Hawthorn chose four players they wanted as their centre square rotation and played them together until it worked. They really struggled at the start of the year, but by mid-year it had clicked. On talent, our centre square combination is much stronger than theirs. In practice, it isn't. At the moment we are running too many players though there: we've been running a six rotation, nobody else does that. Chose the best combination and back them in. Simpkin, LDU, Sheezel, Wardlaw, and when needed, Parker.

Ldu simpkin sheezel and wardlaw have had significant time to gel, add Powell and phillips.

The only time this midfield works is if there is a genuine defensively minded midfielder in that rotation. No one likes him but our midfield functions a whole heap better with Phillips in that side.

 

[tales129]

Watched the GWS vs Adelaide game and the midfield accountability from Adelaide was fantastic the rolled together as a unit clogging up space while not allowing GWS to play their controlling uncontested marking game.

The Adelaide midfield unit consists of Crouch, Dawson, Soligo, Rankine, Cumming and Laird, with Neal-Bullen and Keays pushing up from half forward.

Outside of Rankine none of those players are particularly quick. I’d argue that the likes of LDU, Simpkin, Powell and co would have that Adelaide midfield group covered for speed. What we don’t have, that Adelaide do have is the ability to anticipate turnovers and react quickly….Crouch, Laird and Dawson are masters of it, and it allows them to get into positions to impact opposition forays forward. They are accountable to a direct opponent on transition, but they also position themselves in areas where they are likely to intercept.

Our midfielders meanwhile are:

1. Too slow to react, therefore can’t slow the opposition down and nor provide pressure.

2. Get caught in no man’s land in areas where they are unlikely to intercept.

It drives me bananas, because there are plenty of players in the VFL or other state leagues that have this defensively minded footy IQ. Yet none of our midfielders commit to it on any sort level on a regular basis.

Is our coaches teaching it poorly or is it that our midfielders are too lazy or are they too dumb to implement what they are being taught?

I just can’t believe we can be so bad in this department.

I’d add in this that Adelaide’s half forwards there are elite runners that do a shit tonne of unrewarded running.

Compare keays and Neal bullen to what we’ve been trotting out in Simpkin, zurhaar, mckercher et al and they can’t get the balance right between them. If keays runs to the goal square hard to be the right option, he gets dangerous and someone has to follow, ANB will peel off and cover his man on the offensive side.

We just have have forwards up at the contest who all immediately run forward, we don’t hit them, our mids run forward and we then have 3 oppo half backs queuing up to use the corridor

 

[roos_fanatic08]

Forgive the repetition, but I'll say it again, our blokes are getting sucked into contests because they don't trust their mate to get the job done.

Or put another way, they're so desperate they're losing structure.

I think it's a bit of this. But I'm not sure how McKercher or Powell can look at Wardlaw in a contest and go "yeah I'm the man who can win that ball." Lol.

Merlin007 i don’t think it’s a trust thing or a desperation thing at all. If all three of Powell, LDU and Simpkin were “desperate” the ball wouldn’t exit the stoppage with the ease that it does at the moment.

The reason why it happens is because all of the players mentioned are reactive they react to a contest or a ball drop and are unable to stick to basic instructions or a structure especially when the ball is the transition. It’s seriously under 12’s stuff.

I’ve been critical of the above 3 players for years but it’s only now others are starting to realise just how poor their midfield craft, accountability and transition running is.

 

[Themanbun]

Merlin007 i don’t think it’s a trust thing or a desperation thing at all. If all three of Powell, LDU and Simpkin were “desperate” the ball wouldn’t exit the stoppage with the ease that it does at the moment.

The reason why it happens is because all of the players mentioned are reactive they react to a contest or a ball drop and are unable to stick to basic instructions or a structure especially when the ball is the transition. It’s seriously under 12’s stuff.

I’ve been critical of the above 3 players for years but it’s only now others are starting to realise just how poor their midfield craft, accountability and transition running is.

Bingo. The word for it, unfortunately, is laziness. They do not seem to consistently and relentlessly mentally and physically apply themselves, both during a game and in their preparation, to doing everything that's needed for the midfield to succeed as a unit and they are not committed to being hard to play against first and foremost. They get slack, take the easy option rather than the needed one, and it kills us.

They should know that in certain roles they need to hold out. As you say, it's not high level midfield craft. But that will mean having to follow Sam Walsh around after the stoppage which is...hard work.

 

[Merlin007]

Merlin007 i don’t think it’s a trust thing or a desperation thing at all. If all three of Powell, LDU and Simpkin were “desperate” the ball wouldn’t exit the stoppage with the ease that it does at the moment.

The reason why it happens is because all of the players mentioned are reactive they react to a contest or a ball drop and are unable to stick to basic instructions or a structure especially when the ball is the transition. It’s seriously under 12’s stuff.

I’ve been critical of the above 3 players for years but it’s only now others are starting to realise just how poor their midfield craft, accountability and transition running is.

Look I agree about the failure to stick to basic instructions, but the question then is why?

If you take one of Montagna's examples, where Simpkin and Colby as half forwards leave their men to come up to the stoppage, and then get stuck in no man's land as the ball by-passes them to the outside. Contra Themanbun I don't see that as laziness, more a belief that the stoppage group aren't going to get the job done and they have to join the contest (which of course, they fail to do).

Clarkson and the panel have a job of work in unscrambling thought processes and giving blokes clarity on what they're expected to do, and leaping in the coal face (and failing to get there)

 

[Themanbun]

Look I agree about the failure to stick to basic instructions, but the question then is why?

If you take one of Montagna's examples, where Simpkin and Colby as half forwards leave their men to come up to the stoppage, and then get stuck in no man's land as the ball by-passes them to the outside. Contra Themanbun I don't see that as laziness, more a belief that the stoppage group aren't going to get the job done and they have to join the contest (which of course, they fail to do).

Clarkson and the panel have a job of work in unscrambling thought processes and giving blokes clarity on what they're expected to do, and leaping in the coal face (and failing to get there)

I think that is an example of mentally not switching on and really thinking the game through, personally. Just my thoughts.

But even in that stoppage, Sheez not tracking Walsh, his direct opponent, was to me a choice that has nothing to do with trusting your mates.

 

[tales129]

Look I agree about the failure to stick to basic instructions, but the question then is why?

If you take one of Montagna's examples, where Simpkin and Colby as half forwards leave their men to come up to the stoppage, and then get stuck in no man's land as the ball by-passes them to the outside. Contra Themanbun I don't see that as laziness, more a belief that the stoppage group aren't going to get the job done and they have to join the contest (which of course, they fail to do).

Clarkson and the panel have a job of work in unscrambling thought processes and giving blokes clarity on what they're expected to do, and leaping in the coal face (and failing to get there)

I think that is an example of mentally not switching on and really thinking the game through, personally. Just my thoughts.

But even in that stoppage, Sheez not tracking Walsh, his direct opponent, was to me a choice that has nothing to do with trusting your mates.

Theres also the element that both of these blokes are more midfielders than forwards. They don’t have the craft to play half forward and they get sucked up the ground.

Half forward is the hardest position on the ground to play nowadays. It’s less about possessions and more about impact and running patterns, selflessness and playing a team roll. There’s a reason why gws recruiting department have made it their role to have the most damaging half forwards in the game,

Our blokes are selfish and want the stats sheet to look good, get caught in no man’s land and don’t impact whatsoever

 

[perplexed]

Ldu simpkin sheezel and wardlaw have had significant time to gel, add Powell and phillips.

The only time this midfield works is if there is a genuine defensively minded midfielder in that rotation. No one likes him but our midfield functions a whole heap better with Phillips in that side.

Na. Those four are our best centre square mids and have barely played together. We need to back them in and stop wasting time on fringe types.

Powell and Phillips have had chance after chance and aren't up to it. They are small, slow and play with no intensity. Will is disciplined around stoppages but is well behind Simpkin and Parker in that respect and is useless after stoppages - and as running is a defensive mid's first, and second priorities, he is basically unplayable. Powell is flakey and needs everything on his own terms.

 

[DuckYeah]

Na. Those four are our best centre square mids and have barely played together. We need to back them in and stop wasting time on fringe types.

Powell and Phillips have had chance after chance and aren't up to it. They are small, slow and play with no intensity. Will is disciplined around stoppages but is well behind Simpkin and Parker in that respect and is useless after stoppages - and as running is a defensive mid's first, and second priorities, he is basically unplayable. Powell is flakey and needs everything on his own terms.

Hence the last 2 weeks without Will. Evidence based results. Jy is not a defensive midfielder, he’s barely AFL standard.

 

[Merlin007]

I think that is an example of mentally not switching on and really thinking the game through, personally. Just my thoughts.

But even in that stoppage, Sheez not tracking Walsh, his direct opponent, was to me a choice that has nothing to do with trusting your mates.

Could be. I thought the most interesting thread in Viney's interview was about players getting 'lost in the moment'

I think we're describing the same thing - the question is what to do about it

 

[Only Forwards]

Or put another way, they're so desperate they're losing structure.

My uninformed opinion is that at there is a very psychological side to this in none of them want to lose. So immediately they are starting off with pressure to win it inside their head. So you get this even if my team mate has gone I need to go because if he doesn't win it I can.

It is really counter intuitive to what we need.

As soon as the one loses, the other is in no mans land and that singular loss dominoes and then we are scrambling.

Some of this is compounded by us having some many blokes scared of contact. So you have others trying to bridge the difference. It'd be much much more tolerable if we lost bet they showed that in every contest every player was committed to compete.

I don't care if we lose this week but if we ran out as a unit that collectively said when it is my turn I will go, we would look like and play like a different side.

This would also be the start of building trust through the playing group.

This should be the minimum. If you have to hurt when the ball is there to be won will you. If the answer is no, you should not get the privilege of wearing the jumper. Every time you don't go, you hurt your team mates, you hurt the club, you hurt the fans and you disrespect everything they have ever fought for to keep the club.

 

[Passmore]

Na. Those four are our best centre square mids and have barely played together. We need to back them in and stop wasting time on fringe types.

Powell and Phillips have had chance after chance and aren't up to it. They are small, slow and play with no intensity. Will is disciplined around stoppages but is well behind Simpkin and Parker in that respect and is useless after stoppages - and as running is a defensive mid's first, and second priorities, he is basically unplayable. Powell is flakey and needs everything on his own terms.

Can you have too many combinations running through the middle?

Are we better off identifying 4 or 5 mainstays, letting them gel, and basically telling the rest to adapt to another position? If you can't, you play VFL?

Then you throw in a Zurhaar or Curtis for the odd contest?

 

[franjon]

It's basic, lower div local footy nonsense. Forwards coming up to stoppage and not impacting, wingers pressing on laterals, mids getting sucked right into congestion and being too soft to impact and then not transitioning back.

Our midfield is so overrated it's frightening. And the way they play sucks, to top it off.

It's never going to be any different until they wake up and realize the guys leading the midfield aren't much chop. It's hard to expect the up and comers to carry the side because the senior players have a history of being the turnover experts.

 

[perplexed]

Can you have too many combinations running through the middle?

Are we better off identifying 4 or 5 mainstays, letting them gel, and basically telling the rest to adapt to another position? If you can't, you play VFL?

Then you throw in a Zurhaar or Curtis for the odd contest?

I think fewer is better, and pretty much every other team does this. The players become predictable to each other and the more they play together the better they get. Brisbane have a stack of players capable of playing in the centre square, but every week they play the same four mid rotation and players like Berry, Rayner, Lashcroft, Fletcher and Bailey don't get a look in.