There had better not be any talk of a big import for next season.

ImperialPurple

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#26
jarman said:
Undertaker - agree with you, it astounds me that we only have two "real" ruckman, regardless the quality. Most other clubs have three or four with then eye to the future/rookies. I just don't know what is in CC head at times.
CC and co did try very, very hard to retain Simmonds (the dirty traitorous mercenary that he is) - they upped their offer in both $$ and length of contract by all accounts, but $1mil+ for 4 years wasn't enough for the lower than a Snake's belly "all round good guy" and off he went to Richmond. Had he not taken off for the dollars and 5 year long contract, the ruck "problem" would be a non-issue. How much more could you have expected CC & co to offer???
 

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jarman

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#27
ImperialPurple - good to see you on Bigfooty too. With Duchy and ThePope we now have all the "big guns" here.

Agree that there is not much that one can do when a guy does not want to stay. But we should have taken a young ruckman in the draft or rookie as a minimum. There were a few 198 cms guys avialable.

Not a better option than taking Haines - what do you reckon?
 

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#28
ImperialPurple said:
CC and co did try very, very hard to retain Simmonds (the dirty traitorous mercenary that he is) - they upped their offer in both $$ and length of contract by all accounts, but $1mil+ for 4 years wasn't enough for the lower than a Snake's belly "all round good guy" and off he went to Richmond. Had he not taken off for the dollars and 5 year long contract, the ruck "problem" would be a non-issue. How much more could you have expected CC & co to offer???
I'd suggest that Freo's preparedness to wed themselves to dirty traitorous mercenaries in the first place is where the trouble lies?
 

ImperialPurple

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#29
Mead said:
I'd suggest that Freo's preparedness to wed themselves to dirty traitorous mercenaries in the first place is where the trouble lies?
The snake said all along he wanted to go where the "job security" was. He came to us to get "more opportunities", developed nicely for a couple of years, then nicked off when a better offer came along. Most of the blokes we have got have merely wanted to "come home". Chick, Stenglein ring a bell??
 

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#30
jarman said:
Agree that there is not much that one can do when a guy does not want to stay. But we should have taken a young ruckman in the draft or rookie as a minimum. There were a few 198 cms guys avialable.

Not a better option than taking Haines - what do you reckon?
Can't disagree with that.
 

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#31
some trades have worked for you guys some haven't.

mcPharlin worked great, unfortunately croad didn't. hedland was always going to be iffy. for a number 1 pick he took a long time to break into the brisbane team and when he did it was as a forward receiver who was behind voss, lappin, black and acker in the pecking order. josh carr was an offer that was too good to refuse. if a player of his ability was asking to come to the eagles and they refused i'd be pretty furious. black was also a win for you guys as he has pushed pavlich into the forward line where he belongs.

just because someone is a big name AFL player wanting to return home to WA it does mean that either the dockers or the eagles have to pick them up.
 

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#32
ImperialPurple said:
CC and co did try very, very hard to retain Simmonds (the dirty traitorous mercenary that he is) - they upped their offer in both $$ and length of contract by all accounts, but $1mil+ for 4 years wasn't enough for the lower than a Snake's belly "all round good guy" and off he went to Richmond. Had he not taken off for the dollars and 5 year long contract, the ruck "problem" would be a non-issue. How much more could you have expected CC & co to offer???
Brown & Power are reputed to be staying at their club for less money.....
It therefore is not always the money. Your club needs to ascertain the real reason why he left.
Port lost Carr for family reasons (+ the >$1M helped) but he must have reconciled himself to not again wanting to be a premiership medalist.
 

ImperialPurple

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#34
oporto said:
Brown & Power are reputed to be staying at their club for less money.....
It therefore is not always the money. Your club needs to ascertain the real reason why he left.
Port lost Carr for family reasons (+ the >$1M helped) but he must have reconciled himself to not again wanting to be a premiership medalist.
You reckon in 2002 when Pav was deciding his future and leaving it "till the end of the year", that he wouldn't have had more $$$ offered by Port or Adelaide to go back home to SA? Pav has since extended his contract by a couple more years to be signed up till end of 2007 - JLo just signed for 4 years on less than what he would have been offered (and was offered once before by Carlton - where his brother now plays) to leave Freo, and he said - there's more to playing footy than the money. Schammer (an out of stater), has signed on till 2007... other "big names" who are signed up till 2007 or beyond include McPharlin and Haselby - either of these guys would be paid big bucks by other clubs to switch. And I'm not just talking about out of WA. Imagine what the Weags would do to get their hands on a well developed, athletic KPP like McPharlin who can play CHB or FF - the two positions they are lacking. Geez, a McPharlin at WCE would make them an even more formidable unit than they are now. How much would they be prepared to offer him - or Polak for that matter.

You are trying to draw a pattern and aim a barb against the FFC using a figure of "1". The "problem" with Simmonds was the snake's greed. Full stop. End of story.
 

ImperialPurple

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#35
noodle said:
some trades have worked for you guys some haven't.

mcPharlin worked great, unfortunately croad didn't. hedland was always going to be iffy. for a number 1 pick he took a long time to break into the brisbane team and when he did it was as a forward receiver who was behind voss, lappin, black and acker in the pecking order. josh carr was an offer that was too good to refuse. if a player of his ability was asking to come to the eagles and they refused i'd be pretty furious. black was also a win for you guys as he has pushed pavlich into the forward line where he belongs.

just because someone is a big name AFL player wanting to return home to WA it does mean that either the dockers or the eagles have to pick them up.
Agree 100%. Particularly the point in bold.
 

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#36
ImperialPurple said:
You reckon in 2002 when Pav was deciding his future and leaving it "till the end of the year", that he wouldn't have had more $$$ offered by Port or Adelaide to go back home to SA? Pav has since extended his contract by a couple more years to be signed up till end of 2007 - JLo just signed for 4 years on less than what he would have been offered (and was offered once before by Carlton - where his brother now plays) to leave Freo, and he said - there's more to playing footy than the money. Schammer (an out of stater), has signed on till 2007... other "big names" who are signed up till 2007 or beyond include McPharlin and Haselby - either of these guys would be paid big bucks by other clubs to switch. And I'm not just talking about out of WA. Imagine what the Weags would do to get their hands on a well developed, athletic KPP like McPharlin who can play CHB or FF - the two positions they are lacking. Geez, a McPharlin at WCE would make them an even more formidable unit than they are now. How much would they be prepared to offer him - or Polak for that matter.

You are trying to draw a pattern and aim a barb against the FFC using a figure of "1". The "problem" with Simmonds was the snake's greed. Full stop. End of story.
Good post IP, That does count doubt upon the "lost the players theory though" as does Pav's & Justins and others (at various times) efforts this season.
 

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#37
jarman said:
Undertaker - agree with you, it astounds me that we only have two "real" ruckman, regardless the quality. Most other clubs have three or four with then eye to the future/rookies. I just don't know what is in CC head at times.

Also agree with Sabres comments - Freo in my opinion are a top 4 side so making the 8 isnt good enough. Development is non existent and McPhee is a classic example.

Also good to see Duchy and The Pope on bigfooty.
Answering your points in reverse.
I've got over 1200 posts here... and probably more at the other place???

Development is half luck. Who here knew that Lindsay Gilbee and Daniel Cross would be stars this year? Who knows why Schammer hasn't developed equally? Why has Winderlich still done nothing? I call your McPhee and raise you a McPharlin... or a Troy Cook...or a Matt Carr... or a Simmonds. All developed at Freo, not elsewhere. And don't forget that Callaghan, O'Reilly, Sinclair (other than a few games last year), Brown, Delaney and Gale all played quite a few games elsewhere, but none have done much. Even Holland and Clement, although they've done OK, we got Bell from that deal, so it's a price I'm willing to pay.

And to the ruckmen... yes 2 and Johnson/Warren is going light, but lets just see which clubs do have 3-4 ready to play ruckmen.
Adelaide: Clarke, Biglands, Hudson... with Clarke at 32 you need 3, and they've got a few 18 years olds too. So plenty of options.
Bris: best depth in the league, but with McDonald and Keating lucky to play 10 games a year they need it! McLaren and Charman the backup.
Carl: French, De Luca and ummm that's it. Chris Bryan and Daniel Batson in the glass case... in case of emergency, break glass.
Coll: Fraser, Rocca (?) then kids... Cloke, Richards, Hall, Fanning. I'd back Johnson/Warren against any of them, but Mick's always hated ruckmen anyway.
Ess: Hille, Allen then Laycock and Cartledge are just starting.. Henneman as a backup is frightening
Geelong: King, Ottens, Chambers, then Mooney as a basher.
Hawks: Everitt, then....? Simon Taylor & Robert Campbell. A kid and a chump.
Roos: Hale, Thompson, McKernan with McIntosh or Rocca as backup... quantity over quality.
Melb: White and Jamar. Traded Jolly... Paul Johnson as backup? Vanschaik?
Port: Brogan can't even get a game ahead of Primus and Lade, with another Deluca in reserve.
Rich: Snake, Stafford and Knobel with Ray Hall if they really need to.
Saints: Koschitze, Ackland with Brooks as a backup
Syd: Goodes, Doyle, Jolly and Ball, but Ball's 32 and Goodes doesn't really want to be there.
WCE: Cox, Gardiner, Seaby... Beeck, Graham if you really had to.
WB: Darcy (gone), then Minson and Skipper... and of course the real lightpole of the AFL, Peter Street.

So, a couple teams have 4, most have 2 with a kid, but I reckon Johnson is fine as a 3rd ruckman. But yes, I'd like to see a 18 year old 200cm guy picked up at the end of this year.
 
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#38
Maybe I was at a different game on the weekend but what I noticed was that when the ball hit the ground in the third quarter, time after time after time it was Hawthorn that took it away. Same against Essendon in that game. Same old, same old.

I think it's a bit radical to push the idea that ruckmen are needed to get in and get the ball when it hits the deck. We recruited the best available last year and we still can't win a disputed ball.

Here's another radical idea. Forget recruits and teach the Dockers to shepherd. To lay a good hard shepherd.
 

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#40
You can do this three ways, assess the playing list, assess the coach and assess the club. For characterisation process, I have broken the playing list up into the areas I feel they fit into, and given a brief synopsis.

Top Line Players
Bell, Peter - fantastic work ethic and always tries 100%. Should be v/c
Black, Heath - has been the recruit of 2005 for Fremantle. Playing well.
Carr, Josh - has played well enough in patches, and is a quality player.
Pavlich, Matthew - absolute star of the club. Should be captain.


2nd tier Players
Carr, Matthew - does his roll every week and is usually very reliable
Farmer, Jeff - enigmatic to say the least
Haddrill, Robert - underrated and always performs his bit for the team
Hasleby, Paul - after a stellar start to his career, has plateaued somewhat
Longmuir, Justin - a handy ruckman that can push forward. Not physical enough for my liking.
McPharlin, Luke - starting to forge an impressive career apart from the injuries
Parker, Shane - goes about his business quietly. A Fine servant
Schofield, Jarrad - fantastic linkman, will be fine later in the year
Walker, James - very quick an provides a lot of run


3rd tier Players
Cook, Troy - solid hard trier, not particularly skilled though but is very tough
Dodd, Steven - youngster who has done ok
Gilmore, Daniel - excellent at WAFL but can't step up to AFL
Grover, Antoni - another who goes about his business
Hayden, Roger - ok backman, does some good things
Johnson, Michael - has shown a bit to date
Siegert, Andrew - I would think about delisting or trading Andrew, can be good at times
Smith, Dylan - hard at it midfielder, but that's about it.
Thornton, Scott - never been a fan and never will.
Warren, Michael - shown a fair bit at WAFL level so far, will be interesting to see him given a chance
Webster, Luke - not a fan either, but goes in very hard.


Promising Juniors
Mundy, David - had a fantastic start and a highly rated junior
Murphy, Ryan - played very well at WAFL and should be given more opportunities at AFL level

Juniors Expected more of
Dunn, Ryley - been pathetic to say the least to this point, and I have watched him at WAFL level frequently.
Polak, Graham - only really shows enough when being the 3rd man up in the marking contest
Schammer, Byron - injuries aside, has struggled when playing on quality oppostion after bursting onto the scene

Neutral Juniors
Campbell, Adam
Copping, Benet
Stribling, Toby

Major disappointments
Headland, Des - self explanatory
Medhurst, Paul - talented yet completely arrogant for no good reason

Delist/trade
Browne, Andrew - average to good WAFL player
Haines, Daniel - average to good WAFL player
McManus, Shaun - hard trier, but if Fremantle wants to go forward, you can't afford to have him on your list
Peake, Brett - living off his father's name
Sandilands, Aaron - only there because of his height
Woods, Dion - had long enough to cement a spot.

Coach
Connolly, Chris - a fantastic marketing man who tactially is very poor come game day. Doesn't inspire or motivate in my opinion. Time to move on, but had his contract renewed by best Victorian mate Cameron Scwab.

Fremantle
There is a culture problem at the club. Fremantle needs some steel and needs to learn to win when the game is on the line. The opportunity was there for Fremantle to establish itself on the football field as a powerhouse, instead the administration overlooked a Terry Wallace who would have been fantastic for Fremantle and went for Chris Connolly.

Something you have to ask is, if Fremantle folded tomorrow, what players would other clubs be looking at immediately to get onto their list and move forward with. After reviewing the list and putting aside the media garbage of how fantastic and strong it is, I tend to agree with Ken Judge in saying this list will not take Fremantle to a premiership...........with my added bonus; with Chris Connollly as coach.
 

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#41
Dasler - good post. Agreed with a lot you said except that I would put Luke McP in the top bracket. Also agreed with your delist group.

I remember putting in a post on Dockerland, that we should have got Wallace instead of CC at the time and got thrashed by all and sundary. We would now be in the big league, with a GF appearance on the way.

What a waste of two and half years.

I am waiting for the day we have a team that is good enough to make a real GF run. Can you imagine what Fremantle would be like for the run in - the place would go nuts.
 

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#42
Dr Ralph Dagg said:
Here's another radical idea. Forget recruits and teach the Dockers to shepherd. To lay a good hard shepherd.
Geez, better sign Ralph up on $100K + per year, that is a radical idea. I bet he got that idea from an Under 12's coach .....

As I said earlier this week, look after your team mates is number 1, look after yourself number 2. Too many players enjoy being seagulls rather than crunchers.
 

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#43
Fair enough Dasler but you have put Michael Warren in as a 3rd tier player (0 games), then listed Mundy and Spud as promising juniors. I rate Warren as still being below Mundy and Spud, 4th tier maybe?.

Don't agree with you on Sandilands, yes he is not the greatest, but he is a project and if we traded him, well you know what will happen ....
 

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#44
The Pope - going to have a go at "mixing" stats with you.

Agree that getting a top player is half luck and many top draft choices have not made it. But still do not see that the CC environment as bringing out the best in players. Desi has gone backwards, McPharlin is a champion regardless of where he plays.

Generally agree with your summary on ruckman, but still think we are light at Freo and should have picked up a 18 year old 200cm this year. The other clubs are better equipped in this area. If we fluked it and got into the top eight and then copped an injury to a JLo, we would be totally shot in a finals pressure footy game. Apart from tapping, a ruckman must pull his weight around the ground.

Warren IMO is better 3rd ruckman, but both Warren/Johnson would be struggling to go all game against the likes of Everitt, King, Hille etc.

From another angle, the game has changed and I am not sure if knock ruckman in the old sense are required anymore. Maybe it’s now a game for 195 cm midfielders, short kicking stuff with flooding etc etc.

If you look across the clubs, players that are 195 cm and taller, Freo has the least number of talls. The numbers includes rookies.
Adelaide – 10
Bris – 8
Carl – 8
Collingwood – 8
Ess – 7
Freo – 2 (Warren and Johnson are both 194cm)
Geel – 8
Hawks – 7
Roos – 7
Melb – 8
Port – 9
Rich – 6
St K – 6
Syd – 8
WCE – 10
Bulldogs - 9
 

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#45
jarman said:
I remember putting in a post on Dockerland, that we should have got Wallace instead of CC at the time and got thrashed by all and sundary. We would now be in the big league, with a GF appearance on the way.

We did go after Wallace and Eade at the end of 2001, particularly Wallace. Wallace wasn't interested in moving to WA without a huge salary and the WAFC wouldn't allow it and Rocket thought that he had a good future at Sydney. At the end of 2003 when it looked like there wouldn't be any positions available Eade said that he had regrets about not pursuing the Fremantle job.
 

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#46
dominguez said:
We did go after Wallace and Eade at the end of 2001, particularly Wallace. Wallace wasn't interested in moving to WA without a huge salary and the WAFC wouldn't allow it and Rocket thought that he had a good future at Sydney. At the end of 2003 when it looked like there wouldn't be any positions available Eade said that he had regrets about not pursuing the Fremantle job.
The story I heard was that Freo management did not rate him and did not want him.
 

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#47
Originally Posted by dominguez
We did go after Wallace and Eade at the end of 2001, particularly Wallace. Wallace wasn't interested in moving to WA without a huge salary and the WAFC wouldn't allow it and Rocket thought that he had a good future at Sydney. At the end of 2003 when it looked like there wouldn't be any positions available Eade said that he had regrets about not pursuing the Fremantle job.

The story I heard was that Freo management did not rate him and did not want him.
Yesterday 13:29

FREMANTLE REALLY KNOW WANT THEY ARE DOING DONT THEY. They got CC (cant coach) how many years has he been there!!!! and they sign him up for more, look WHAT Wallace and Eade are doing with there clubs they have beeen there what 6 months maybe. WHAT A JOKE
 

dasler

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#48
masai said:
Fair enough Dasler but you have put Michael Warren in as a 3rd tier player (0 games), then listed Mundy and Spud as promising juniors. I rate Warren as still being below Mundy and Spud, 4th tier maybe?.

Don't agree with you on Sandilands, yes he is not the greatest, but he is a project and if we traded him, well you know what will happen ....
Masai Warren is a little older than to be considered a junior now, thus the 3rd tier level. He has shown me enough in the WAFL to suggest this rating. For all purposed feel free to include him in your 4th tier.

IMO Sandilands is not up to AFL standard. Apart from his height at centre bouncedowns he doesn't bring anything else to the table with his tap work being rather average.
 

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#49
dasler said:
IMO Sandilands is not up to AFL standard. Apart from his height at centre bouncedowns he doesn't bring anything else to the table with his tap work being rather average.
He was second in the league in Round 7 & 8 for "taps to advantage" and had the better of Everitt on sunday in the ruck.

Contested 50 contests for 29 hitouts of which most went to our players who coughed it up.

http://www.prowess-sports.com/pro-stats/reports/match_report_72.pdf
 

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