Society & Culture Things in life you just don't understand - Part 3

[Craven Morehead]

I wonder what that Paxton family is up to these days

$1.01 that nothing has changed.

 

[edgie]

100% agree.
Work for the dole must be completely overhauled and re-implemented as a tool for people to receive skills which will have a meaningful impact on them gaining a job elsewhere.



...

Skills and experience and temptation of earning more than centrelink, but not at the expense of genuine job seekers or casual/part time workers looking for full time.

It's a real tricky balancing act and has to be fair to everyone.

I think the best way is to look at decreasing the bloat of local government.

 

[Off The Couch]

I just want to know who pays for the move and the other associated costs

 

[Craven Morehead]

I just want to know who pays for the move and the other associated costs

A tweak of policy would provide moving costs etc, (which were going to be paid through benefits anyway), but the participant can't just say, "stuff this, it's all too hard" , (outside of current workplace policies) and then want to go home.
I don't know...6 months minimum? Is that fair?
Does that give them enough time to get over leaving Mum and their 'support network'?
That is a wise use of public money that improves peoples lives.

 

[edgie]

The only way my dad ended his decade out of work was by upping and moving, now he makes six figures and hasn't looked back, happily been there for the past 15 years, comes back home once a month.

I just want to know who pays for the move and the other associated costs

He did. You suck it up.

 

[DaRick]

Oh boo bloody hoo.
As stated before by craigos , people are soft nowadays.
If there is job that pays well, offers you security and gets you off the welfare cycle, you harden up and leave Mummy for Christs sake.
The world is a far smaller place than it was when we had recessions in the 70's, 80's and 90's, yet if times were tough and there was a good job elsewhere there was no hesitation in moving across the country to take it.
That's what you did to survive and make something of yourself.

Oh but Mum and my support network!
FMD.

Support networks (which include friends as well) are IMO a relevant issue with regards to relocating, so his perspective has merit, but it's certainly not the only issue.

I have certainly applied for jobs interstate when I was out of work, in the interests of full disclosure, but most of my middle-class private school classmates haven't left Brisbane, not so much because of 'support networks' but because most (not all) of the jobs that are worth relocating for are in Sydney/Melbourne, and if things go wrong then you're potentially left in a high cost-of-living city with no way of paying the rent.

According to my father, in the old days (1970s) relocating didn't carry those sorts of consequences because there was more work available in lower cost-of-living areas, plus technology/offshoring/immigration wasn't such an issue so there more jobs. If something went wrong, it was apparently easier to find another job.

He got his start by relocating to Warwick to work at the NAB in the early 1970s. He admitted that it would be far harder to do that today.

 

[Bomberboyokay]

Craven Morehead inherited his farm (thus a house) and job.

 

[Bomberboyokay]

The only way my dad ended his decade out of work was by upping and moving, now he makes six figures and hasn't looked back, happily been there for the past 15 years, comes back home once a month.



He did. You suck it up.

Sucking it up doesn't pay moving costs. How did he do it?

 

[Off The Couch]

The only way my dad ended his decade out of work was by upping and moving, now he makes six figures and hasn't looked back, happily been there for the past 15 years, comes back home once a month.



He did. You suck it up.

Took him 10 years to make the decision to move

Did he have mummy issues *sarcasm

Receiving Newstart, Living below the poverty line but apparently has a couple of grand to up and leave, more if he has a family.

 

[JackOutback]

Support networks (which include friends as well) are IMO a relevant issue with regards to relocating, so his perspective has merit, but it's certainly not the only issue.

I have certainly applied for jobs interstate when I was out of work, in the interests of full disclosure, but most of my middle-class private school classmates haven't left Brisbane, not so much because of 'support networks' but because most (not all) of the jobs that are worth relocating for are in Sydney/Melbourne, and if things go wrong then you're potentially left in a high cost-of-living city with no way of paying the rent.

According to my father, in the old days (1970s) relocating didn't carry those sorts of consequences because there was more work available in lower cost-of-living areas, plus technology/offshoring/immigration wasn't such an issue so there more jobs. If something went wrong, it was apparently easier to find another job.

He got his start by relocating to Warwick to work at the NAB in the early 1970s. He admitted that it would be far harder to do that today.

People prefer to live in a black and white world where people are just lazy bludgers. And some are still referring to the Paxtons? FMD, watch Frontline and learn how they (and the viewer) got played.

 

[edgie]

Sucking it up doesn't pay moving costs. How did he do it?

Hotel rooms while interviewing, after success, moved down with a car and lived in a caravan (fortunate inheritance from my mum's grandparents) for a decade until he sold it to buy a cabin in the caravan park.

Moving costs were minimal partly due to some good luck and sacrifices made.

 

[edgie]

Took him 10 years to make the decision to move

Did he have mummy issues *sarcasm

Receiving Newstart, Living below the poverty line but apparently has a couple of grand to up and leave, more if he has a family.

Took him ten years to find a permanent job. Was prepared to go before that. Actually between being retrenched the first time and finding work, had a son then lost said son to cancer, so there were a few years spent not looking.

Had money saved up from umpiring a couple thousand games of footy in that time as well as mowing lawns and general handyman work. The family didn't go with him, as stated above, and he lived in a caravan. A couple of grand not needed.

 

[Scotland]

Depending on the work relocating for a job can be covered by the employer. But it depends on your skillset, location etc.

I've known people doing FIFO jobs out of state. E.g. working in NT, flights only to Darwin and making their own way to and from Darwin each swing.

 

[Craven Morehead]

Craven Morehead inherited his farm (thus a house) and job.

You'd love that hey?
But as per most of your posts on this site, you are WRONG again.
Keep swinging though, you might hit one yet.

 

[raskolnikov]

I moved from Melbourne to Central Queensland for a job.

I mean, it did help that I had family here but still.

 

[craigos]

The Business Council of Australia argue that Newstart is so low that it encourages welfare dependency because Newstart recipients can't actually afford to do much of anything, including going to interviews.

Ha-Joon Chang takes this argument further and contends that a stronger welfare state encourages welfare recipients to take more risks, like starting their own businesses, since they actually have some capital, rather than clinging on to every last cent. Sure, you always have your bludgers, but they're probably unemployable anyway.

A proper 'work for the dole' program could theoretically do good, but the one we have in place is generally useless because you often don't learn many marketable skills.

I totally disagree with this. You get a concession for public transport, so even if it costs you $4 for the whole day and you have to catch two buses and walk half hour you go. You get the job and it takes you 90 minutes each way to get to work. You do this for 6 months and you can save up and buy a car but people wont do this. If you're on a government payment you shouldn't be doing anything, outside of looking for work. You shouldn't be eating anything more than basic meals, you shouldn't be drinking, smoking or gambling. Sounds harsh but that's my opinion.

I do feel for kids who are brought up on welfare though. Thing is, and I'm sure people who grew up in small towns would know this, people are happily having kids when they have no job or no motivations to get one. These are the people that give the rest on Newstart a bad name and as they're the typical ones you see hanging outside of Centrelink as you drive past (honest job seekers get in and gtfo of there asap), perpetuate the stereotype.

 

[DaRick]

I totally disagree with this. You get a concession for public transport, so even if it costs you $4 for the whole day and you have to catch two buses and walk half hour you go. You get the job and it takes you 90 minutes each way to get to work. You do this for 6 months and you can save up and buy a car but people wont do this. If you're on a government payment you shouldn't be doing anything, outside of looking for work. You shouldn't be eating anything more than basic meals, you shouldn't be drinking, smoking or gambling. Sounds harsh but that's my opinion.

As a prefatory comment, I will note that it's been a while since I was on Centrelink and that these concessions were introduced only a couple of years ago in my state (QLD). Perhaps that BCA report was outdated - I read it some years back.

So the question now is - do those concessions make up for a welfare payment that's around 30% below the poverty line? I was on concession cards a long time ago as a student, and while I agree that they do save a bit of money, I'm unconvinced that they would compensate entirely. Same deal with Health Care/Pensioner Concession Cards.

I agree that people shouldn't be drinking, smoking or gambling while on Newstart (or preferably at all). However, I would suggest that living the responsible lifestyle you suggest is still insufficient to survive (sans malnutrition) with a payment well below the poverty line, unless you're lucky enough to live with family.

I do feel for kids who are brought up on welfare though. Thing is, and I'm sure people who grew up in small towns would know this, people are happily having kids when they have no job or no motivations to get one. These are the people that give the rest on Newstart a bad name and as they're the typical ones you see hanging outside of Centrelink as you drive past (honest job seekers get in and gtfo of there asap), perpetuate the stereotype.

By all means deal with dole bludgers, but punishing the many responsible job-seekers to do so is IMO lazy, irresponsible and unethical policy-making.

The annoying thing about dole bludgers is that 1) they have an annoying habit of sticking around and 2) they're most likely unemployable and are unlikely to become so even if you cut them off Newstart. This creates a conundrum; keeping them on Newstart encourages their behaviour, but getting them off probably won't reform their behaviour and will cause issues RE poverty/crime. I suppose the question is, why do they bludge? Is it because of negative learned behaviour? Are they merely discouraged? Maybe they should be dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

People who irrationally have children they can't afford are similarly problematic. Of course they're stupid to do so, but they're not really deterred by benefit cuts in my experience. Maybe they need to be better educated about the consequences of their actions.

 

[craigos]

As a prefatory comment, I will note that it's been a while since I was on Centrelink and that these concessions were introduced only a couple of years ago in my state (QLD). Perhaps that BCA report was outdated - I read it some years back.

So the question now is - do those concessions make up for a welfare payment that's around 30% below the poverty line? I was on concession cards a long time ago as a student, and while I agree that they do save a bit of money, I'm unconvinced that they would compensate entirely. Same deal with Health Care/Pensioner Concession Cards.

I agree that people shouldn't be drinking, smoking or gambling while on Newstart (or preferably at all). However, I would suggest that living the responsible lifestyle you suggest is still insufficient to survive (sans malnutrition) with a payment well below the poverty line, unless you're lucky enough to live with family.



By all means deal with dole bludgers, but punishing the many responsible job-seekers to do so is IMO lazy, irresponsible and unethical policy-making.

The annoying thing about dole bludgers is that 1) they have an annoying habit of sticking around and 2) they're most likely unemployable and are unlikely to become so even if you cut them off Newstart. This creates a conundrum; keeping them on Newstart encourages their behaviour, but getting them off probably won't reform their behaviour and will cause issues RE poverty/crime. I suppose the question is, why do they bludge? Is it because of negative learned behaviour? Are they merely discouraged? Maybe they should be dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

People who irrationally have children they can't afford are similarly problematic. Of course they're stupid to do so, but they're not really deterred by benefit cuts in my experience. Maybe they need to be better educated about the consequences of their actions.

All solid points, it's a tough subject and one that uninformed idiots like myself could never solve (ethically). Legitimate job seekers should have free public transport and free healthcare. On top of that there should be a myriad of reputable 3 month certificates available that can be undertaken on campus that offer some kind of incentive to complete. Anyone undertaking an Aged Care course can be given tax free earnings on their first year of employment in the industry. Offering incentives to job providers for me is a stupid incentive, should be limited to the employee and employer.

 

[FRUMPY]

I totally disagree with this. You get a concession for public transport, so even if it costs you $4 for the whole day and you have to catch two buses and walk half hour you go. You get the job and it takes you 90 minutes each way to get to work. You do this for 6 months and you can save up and buy a car but people wont do this. If you're on a government payment you shouldn't be doing anything, outside of looking for work. You shouldn't be eating anything more than basic meals, you shouldn't be drinking, smoking or gambling. Sounds harsh but that's my opinion.

I bet you some of these people can somehow afford football memberships, Netflix, movies etc.

 

[DaRick]

I bet you some of these people can somehow afford football memberships, Netflix, movies etc.

Can almost guarantee that they're working in the 'black economy'.

 

[Bomberboyokay]

I moved from Melbourne to Central Queensland for a job.

I mean, it did help that I had family here but still.

Gippsland isn't Melbourne.

 

[Bomberboyokay]

I moved from Melbourne to Central Queensland for a job.

I mean, it did help that I had family here but still.

Moving after you've been offered a fulltime job is completely different to telling someone already unemployed they should starve if they won't move to apply for a part-time position shovelling dirt outside Darwin.

As I recall, you moved to help pay off your negatively geared property down here in Victoria.

 

[Bomberboyokay]

"Tweak work for the dole so blah blah".

Society's better off raising welfare than spending the money on this time filler.

 

[Scotland]

Let it all out Bomberboy. You've only got 24 hours left of Liberal rule.

 

[Bomberboyokay]

It's not really about Liberals. But since you mention it, they do prioritize their feelings over facts.