Society & Culture Things in life you just don't understand - Part 4

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I agree it's complex (is it any surprise the Family Court gives custody to the mother more often when the mother traditionally was the primary caregiver or stay at home parent?).
Historically no, but historically the stereotypical divorce meant wife gets the kids, wife takes the house, husband pays child support and gets the kids every other weekend. Equality is a two way street. With the exception of early childhood (try as you might no man can breast feed) there should be no inherent bias towards women in an era where most households have two working parents.

But what doesn't help is taking a defensive attitude to a real problem. Men might not be inherently bad, but men are inherently the problem in domestic violence incidents. Instead of trying to distract from the issue by saying 'but I'm a good bloke', as if this fact is a personal attack on us, we should simply acknowledge the issue and try to solve it.
Defence mechanisms are usually a response to being attacked. I might need to post the Bill Burr clip again. Does anyone really think the scumbag who is laying into his wife is going to see the latest "DV is bad, men are bad" ad on TV and suddenly go 'ohhh, so I can't do this'?

When it comes to something like suicide people are quick to look towards mental health and ask why are so many young people killing themselves, or indigenous people, or trans people, or fathers, or farmers... but when any DV discussion sparks up it's always "men are bad, men are violent" and anything else is victim blaming. Isn't anyone interested in the why? I sure am. I'm not violent towards anyone let alone women or children. Why are other people? What difference in wiring or upbringing or environment triggers this behaviour? Simply saying that if everyone who is violent would be not violent there wouldn't be violence is inane. Way more men (and women) kill themselves than kill others in this country. They are both acts of people who are desperate/irrational/unstable.

Men are over-represented in physical DV cases. I doubt anyone is surprised by this given men are generally physically dominant compared to women. If everything else was 50/50 I would still expect there to be more male DV physical assault cases reported. Emotional and psychological abuse is more of a grey area. Actual NRL player Josh Reynolds was charged with assault and video came forward of him yelling at a woman. It then came out the woman was a lunatic con-artist who convinced him she was carrying then lost his twins on more than one occasion. I'm not surprised he snapped. Once again it doesn't justify violence but let's not pretend he wasn't pushed to the end of his tether. IMO we are in a better place for knowing both sides of that particular story. It disappoints me that some people's only take away from that would be 'He should learn to control his temper'.

It's the same as the 'all lives matter' movement or 'not all men'. It takes a real and present danger and asks people to stop thinking about and think about our hurt feelings instead.
As an individual you can only really influence your own sphere. I don't hit women, and I don't know of (or have suspicions of) any friends that do either. If you don't do it, don't support/justify others doing it and don't turn a blind eye to others doing it are you still part of the problem?
 

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Off The Couch

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Can you really not separate the two things at all?

Martin Bryant killed 35 people and copped 35 life sentences. That wasn't the end of it.

Do you not want to see the next Rowan Baxter in jail before something tragic like this occurs?
What we know is once again a restraining order was breached with no consequences and that’s an ongoing issue with orders across the country

What we know is that we have a police department suggesting “killer Rowan Baxter may have been "driven too far".”

What we know is a fortnight ago a woman was stabbed to death in her driveway in front of her children

what we know is 69 women and 26 children died in 2019, so far in 2020 nine women and 6 children have died and all we’ve seen so far is a slashing of funds to DV agencies and very little noise or action to make it a priority

So spare me with the “Do you not want to see the next Rowan Baxter in jail before something tragic like this occurs?”

will this be what wakes them up - I hope so but I’m not holding my breath

edit: that’s now 10 women in 2020 with another death overnight in Townsville
 
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phantom13

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Can we all agree that the bloke in Brisbane was a completely unhinged a-hole and net let a one-off atrocity cloud the issue?

View attachment 826681
Source: Australian Bureau of Statistics, 2016 (latest figures available). They are updated every four years, the next release will be early next year.
https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/4906.0



2.147 million victims of domestic violence, of which 74% were women and 26% were men.

Please stop pretending that over half a million victims do not exist. You, the media, and the politicians. ALL victims should be afforded the same support. ALL perpetrators should be dealt with equally.
I’ve still not seen anyone saying the 500k don’t exist but they are a far cry from the nearly triple that amount of victims.

In the same way you say “don’t forget the 500k” don’t try to present 3x more than that as not being a bigger issue.
 

phantom13

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Historically no, but historically the stereotypical divorce meant wife gets the kids, wife takes the house, husband pays child support and gets the kids every other weekend. Equality is a two way street. With the exception of early childhood (try as you might no man can breast feed) there should be no inherent bias towards women in an era where most households have two working parents.



Defence mechanisms are usually a response to being attacked. I might need to post the Bill Burr clip again. Does anyone really think the scumbag who is laying into his wife is going to see the latest "DV is bad, men are bad" ad on TV and suddenly go 'ohhh, so I can't do this'?

When it comes to something like suicide people are quick to look towards mental health and ask why are so many young people killing themselves, or indigenous people, or trans people, or fathers, or farmers... but when any DV discussion sparks up it's always "men are bad, men are violent" and anything else is victim blaming. Isn't anyone interested in the why? I sure am. I'm not violent towards anyone let alone women or children. Why are other people? What difference in wiring or upbringing or environment triggers this behaviour? Simply saying that if everyone who is violent would be not violent there wouldn't be violence is inane. Way more men (and women) kill themselves than kill others in this country. They are both acts of people who are desperate/irrational/unstable.

Men are over-represented in physical DV cases. I doubt anyone is surprised by this given men are generally physically dominant compared to women. If everything else was 50/50 I would still expect there to be more male DV physical assault cases reported. Emotional and psychological abuse is more of a grey area. Actual NRL player Josh Reynolds was charged with assault and video came forward of him yelling at a woman. It then came out the woman was a lunatic con-artist who convinced him she was carrying then lost his twins on more than one occasion. I'm not surprised he snapped. Once again it doesn't justify violence but let's not pretend he wasn't pushed to the end of his tether. IMO we are in a better place for knowing both sides of that particular story. It disappoints me that some people's only take away from that would be 'He should learn to control his temper'.



As an individual you can only really influence your own sphere. I don't hit women, and I don't know of (or have suspicions of) any friends that do either. If you don't do it, don't support/justify others doing it and don't turn a blind eye to others doing it are you still part of the problem?
I tend to agree with the first part (wanting to know what causes it) but with a case this raw and grisly I think we can all probably agree it’s not the right one to run the “why didn’t he do it” line, an emotional response is unavoidable.

To the second part no, you’re not, but if your response to anyone, especially a woman, saying “hey, men do seem to be over represented in DV cases” is to say “not all men” you’ve really set a tone that you’re not interested in what THAT person might want to say on it.
 

Procrastinator35

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What we know is once again a restraining order was breached with no consequences and that’s an ongoing issue with orders across the country

What we know is that we have a police department suggesting “killer Rowan Baxter may have been "driven too far".”

What we know is a fortnight ago a woman was stabbed to death in her driveway in front of her children

So spare me with the “Do you not want to see the next Rowan Baxter in jail before something tragic like this occurs?”

69 women and 26 children died in 2019, so far in 2020 nine women and 6 children have died and all we’ve seen so far is a slashing of funds to DV agencies and very little noise or action to make it a priority

will this be what wakes them up - I hope so but I’m not holding my breath
I'll bet anything that a combo of alcohol, mental illness & drugs was a factor in them all.

It's pretty sad when blokes feel the need to take their self-loathing out on their own families....Shit humans.
 

Gralin

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It's definitely reported differently. In October last year a woman killed her two kids in Perth then self-harmed (I assume suicide attempt but wasn't reported exactly in those words).




Accident, tragedy, she was so caring etc.

Compare that to this article which is just a (fair enough) character assassination of the Brisbane perpetrator:


IMO if your replaced 'mother' with 'father' in the Perth story above the narrative would have been presented differently.

I don't have any stats to back it up but anecdotally familicide cases completely out of the blue seems to be pretty rare. It happens, but more often it's a result of some underlying issue whether it's relationship breakdown, nasty custody battles, postnatal depression, mental health, substance abuse etc.

I'm not surprised that more serious DV cases involving men are reported because there are more of them. But I don't blindly buy into the narrative that men are inherently evil and violent because it's not an apples with apples comparison. These stats (https://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/2f762f95845417aeca25706c00834efa/49d8fa47b11000caca2570ec00111f17!OpenDocument) are from 1997 so pretty old but it showed 88% of kids lived with their mother over their father and 30% saw their non-custodial parent once a year or not at all. Does anyone believe that the family court system creates as many bitter, disillusioned mothers as it does fathers? For about the millionth time that does not justify violence but it's head in the sand stuff for anyone to just keep saying 'men violent, men bad' and pretend it's not a factor.
How do you assassinate the character of someone who killed three children by burning them to death?

Can we all agree that the bloke in Brisbane was a completely unhinged a-hole and net let a one-off atrocity cloud the issue?

View attachment 826681
Source: Australian Bureau of Statistics, 2016 (latest figures available). They are updated every four years, the next release will be early next year.
https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/4906.0



2.147 million victims of domestic violence, of which 74% were women and 26% were men.

Please stop pretending that over half a million victims do not exist. You, the media, and the politicians. ALL victims should be afforded the same support. ALL perpetrators should be dealt with equally.
A woman is murdered every week in this country by a current or ex partner.
75% of dv is against a woman. It's not equal. It needs to be acknowledged.

I'll bet anything that a combo of alcohol, mental illness & drugs was a factor in them all.

It's pretty sad when blokes feel the need to take their self-loathing out on their own families....Shit humans.
Factors aren't reasons. Plenty of people drink and choose not to drive home drunk.
Plenty of people suffer from mental illness and don't decide to kill their whole family.

This wasn't a one off act of abuse from a good bloke under the guise of drugs and alcohol.
 

JackOutback

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Can we all agree that the bloke in Brisbane was a completely unhinged a-hole and net let a one-off atrocity cloud the issue?

View attachment 826681
Source: Australian Bureau of Statistics, 2016 (latest figures available). They are updated every four years, the next release will be early next year.
https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/4906.0



2.147 million victims of domestic violence, of which 74% were women and 26% were men.

Please stop pretending that over half a million victims do not exist. You, the media, and the politicians. ALL victims should be afforded the same support. ALL perpetrators should be dealt with equally.
I knew this furphy would come up. The figures you quote are self reported and therefore questionable at best, they ignore the fact that many incidents of male domestic violence are in the gay community (i.e. the perpetrator is still male) and the figure doesn’t distinguish between types of DV (so a random push of a man gets the same ranking as sustained sexual and physical assault).

We also know that a review of NSW DV cases showed not a single case of a man murdering a woman in self defence but continued examples the other way.

For someone who says he’s not a MRA, you hit all the disingenuous beats. Every DV victim deserves support but arguing that somehow there’s not an issue with men causing violence or that people can somehow be driven to these horrendous acts isn’t helping men, just harming women.
 

Kram

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The bloke a couple of doors down from me gets verbally and physically abused by his missus fairly regularly, often ending with cop intervention.
 

GreyCrow

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I think I overestimated his NRL career.......

Still something went wrong mentally. Not suggesting this as an excuse, just trying.to understand the thought process of such an action and the mindset of an individual.carrying it out.

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The thought process is control, possession and ownership

He no longer had any of that and in his mind that demeaned him

Pos
 

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edgie

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How do you assassinate the character of someone who killed three children by burning them to death?


A woman is murdered every week in this country by a current or ex partner.
...
Because men are much stronger. If men and women were closer biologically that number would even out. The idea that women do not have seriously bad intent in situations needs to end.

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Procrastinator35

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The thought process is control, possession and ownership....He no longer had any of that and in his mind that demeaned him
It goes much deeper than that .....Without them he would have to had faced his own inner emptiness, self-loathing & Demons, without Access to his usual outlet & coping mechanisms....Something that was clearly ritualised.

The idea that women do not have seriously bad intent in situations needs to end.
That's A point I'd Argue, that's hardly germane to this case....This bloke had A long-term M/O & his Actions here bespeak of someone utterly out of his mind & beyond help....This bloke was A psychopath.
 

Gralin

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You live near Johnny Depp?

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I guess you stopped following that story when he got accused. You should look up the results of his court case against her.

Because men are much stronger. If men and women were closer biologically that number would even out. The idea that women do not have seriously bad intent in situations needs to end.

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I know numbers are under reported but 3x as many cases wouldn't just even out if women were stronger.
The idea that pointing out women can do it too needs to stop being used as an excuse to not talk about the fact that we have a problem in society with Dv and we like blaming women for it.
 

Over The Post

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That's A point I'd Argue, that's hardly germane to this case....This bloke had A long-term M/O & his Actions here bespeak of someone utterly out of his mind & beyond help....This bloke was A psychopath.
... which has been pointed out ad nauseam and everybody agrees.

We're trying to show the bigger picture here.

First hand: Bloke next door used to really, really get stuck into by his girlfriend. I mean they'd get out of the car and she'd slap his face before they went inside. On and on and on. No idea why he put up with it. Anyway one night she really let go, screaming at him, smashing glass and windows, the works. We called the cops, he came outside and left her to it. Cops come up and before anyone could say anything put the cuffs on him. She comes out in tears blubbing how he's making her life a misery etc. It was only when we went over and corroborated his story that they let him go - and did nothing about her.

Sorry - pressed post too soon

After six months or so he'd had enough and fought back. He chased her upstairs and she barricaded herself in a bedroom. Cops weren't sympathetic at all. (Neither were we, only because he was a small-time dealer and undersirables would visit at all hours.) Fortunately they broke up after that and relative peace resumed.
 
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drd23

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Procrastinator35

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... which has been pointed out ad nauseam and everybody agrees....We're trying to show the bigger picture here.
Obviously they don't.

The big picture is that every case is different & needs to be treated on it's own merits.....as with any court procedure.

The fact that it's mostly men at the core of most DV is nothing either new nor surprising, having grown up in one of those households myself.
 

Gralin

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They abused each other.

That audio doesn't say he abused her. Her language. "I didn't lunch you I hit you, you're such a baby it didn't even hurt."

She accused him of abuse but all the evidence that has come out since has painted the reverse picture.

Doesn't change the stats. The stats say males get abused, just not as often.

Doesn't mean it should be brushed off but it also doesn't need to be brought up every single time a discussion about a woman getting abused is happening.
 

Over The Post

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It does when the narrative is that ONLY women get abused and ONLY women need support services etc. A misogynist might infer that women want equality in everything except where they're privileged over males.
 

edgie

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...



That's A point I'd Argue, that's hardly germane to this case....This bloke had A long-term M/O & his Actions here bespeak of someone utterly out of his mind & beyond help....This bloke was A psychopath.
There's no doubt about that, I was just speaking in general about that particular statistic.

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phantom13

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It does when the narrative is that ONLY women get abused and ONLY women need support services etc. A misogynist might infer that women want equality in everything except where they're privileged over males.
I’ve not seen a single person ever argue that it’s only women. I’ve seen many point out, correctly I might add, that it’s overwhelmingly more often women being abused and that in nearly all DV and general violent assaults it’s male perpetrators. That doesn’t detract from the many male victims, nor does it imply that men don’t deserve the same support when it does. Just as #blacklivesmatter doesn’t detract from other victims, or standing for equality doesn’t detract from straight cis people.

Not sure why you’d feel the need to bring up what a misogynist might say?
 

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