Secondary Thinking about becoming a teacher

[Jack Richards]

Gees last days are tough when you say goodbye to a great bunch of kids.

Yep. I had a tear in my eye when one of my students cried knowing she was not going to have me as her teacher next year for Grade 4. It was students like her that made days enjoyable (laugh at your jokes, enter the classroom excited and try their very best no matter the challenges while never putting a foot out of place).

 

[Jack Richards]

Agree with the last comment. I am a teacher in a primary school- the kids are great, its the other teachers that are the problems. When we finished yesterday, we all left straight away, people who went into the staff room for drinks, just whinge and complain and are so negative. I would advise young people not to get into teaching these days- its actually rarely teaching its about collecting data and having useless meetings and professional development meetings which are a waste. The best teachers are the ones who get along with the kids, listen to them, try to help them and make school enjoyable, because if you make school enjoyable kids will listen and they will probable learn. They wont listen to teachers who can quote page 36 of the Vic Curriculum document.

We have the breakfast whingers. The ones who sit there and have breakfast while whining on one table, while myself and a few others try and have light hearted conversations but get drowned out by the loud ones. One of the ones that whinged happened to be one who threw me under the bus with leadership rather than approach me directly... yet still had the gall to try and talk to me like I didn't know she did it.

The data focus is ridiculous however, but its across all schools due to the focus on NAPLAN and academic results in the media (which is heavily biased against schools and teachers) but I have also mentioned this earlier, they forget to outline the fact that the countries they compare us to have a different culture and mindset to ours. Our Asian neighbours have a culture that teachers should be respected by kids and parents enforce the learning and drive it a lot more as they believe that kids should strive to help care and support them (parents) and their family when they are older.

Also when they look at Finland and Sweden models, there is no formal testing like NAPLAN, instead they trust their teachers and judgement. Also class sizes are smaller and schooling starts later.

Also schools in the inner city and privatised such as Hailbury and Scotch, for the money you pay, you would want the best. Not saying that public schools and what not, shouldn't strive for the best, but if you can afford those fees (and have your child sit an entrance exam just to get in - Nossal High) then I would be peeved if my kid didn't get great grades.

 

[Hard Ball Get]

NAPLAN is a farce and schools that teach to the test are setting kids up for bigger issues down the track.

 

[pepsi]

NAPLAN is a farce and schools that teach to the test are setting kids up for bigger issues down the track.

And when schools set their AIP targets to NAPLAN results, it's only going to head in one direction.

 

[bUCKET__]

I don't understand the negativity from teachers towards NAPLAN.


For a school to improve their NAPLAN results, the focus shouldn't be on more NAPLAN testing, it should be working with the Victorian / Australian Curriculum and ensuring that it's being taught effectively.

NAPLAN obviously has imperfections, but it reflects the PISA model of testing and has as well designed questions as you're going to get.

The culture of education in Asia isn't relevant, because we're falling backwards in testing in against OECD nations. When testing began, we performed at a higher level than many of those nations who have since moved past us.

If we're not doing any form of bench marking how do you suggest we measure a schools effectiveness? How can we learn from the best schools and support the worst schools if we can't measure school performance?

It's a bit of a false dichotomy you're setting up here, as no one wants to get rid of testing in its entirety.

But there are big problems with testing regimes around the world, and the worry is that governments are signing us up to increased and automated testing systems for reasons of political expediency, not because it's helpful for schools. You just look at the climate around schools in US and worry about getting funding models like that over here, where school funding is dependent on edubusiness.

Unfortunately there is usually little a low performing NAPLAN school can learn from seeing the strategies from a high performing one. There are too many differences across school cultures and programs for these things to be transplanted. Wish it was being used as a way to help schools, but it's simply not.

The way VIC schools are looking at structuring their performance review system these days aims to pair up similar schools where the strengths of one could be helpful for areas of improvement in the other. Guess we'll see how that goes.

Anyhoo, the focus on testing and improving school teaching cultures is a good distraction from what the experts in our country have been telling us is really needed to improve international rankings, which is an overhaul of our funding models to make them needs-based.

Sorry for the long-winded response, but there is at least some reason for the negativity

 

[Hard Ball Get]

We also have many other issues with NAPLAN. The fact we assess writing on one text type in the tests is fundamentally flawed. Some of my best, most creative writers don't write great expositions.

Some of my best problem solving Maths kids aren't great at algorithms. About all it's good for is preparing students for VCE testing, which is flawed in many respects too. I've not met a teacher who actually uses a child's naplan data to assess and schools that put a high focus on it turn out teachers that are boring and sometimes produce "false" results.

I have no doubts that a lot of my poorer performing NAPLAN students will do great things in the real world.

 

[bUCKET__]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Eagles factor in naplan testing to their recruitment. It would explain both the dependency on structures and the widespread inability to play with aggression or heart

 

[rocker_oz33]

My brother is thinking of becoming a primary school teacher he's a social worker ATM.
I think hes only been a social worker a few years so another 4 years to become a teacher.

 

[Jack Richards]

We also have many other issues with NAPLAN. The fact we assess writing on one text type in the tests is fundamentally flawed. Some of my best, most creative writers don't write great expositions.

Some of my best problem solving Maths kids aren't great at algorithms. About all it's good for is preparing students for VCE testing, which is flawed in many respects too. I've not met a teacher who actually uses a child's naplan data to assess and schools that put a high focus on it turn out teachers that are boring and sometimes produce "false" results.

I have no doubts that a lot of my poorer performing NAPLAN students will do great things in the real world.

Our school is a high EAL school. So a lot of our students dont speak english or their parents dont. Giving them tests that are written in a language they dont understand with concepts and questions that are hard to interpret is setting them up for failure.

The stress it puts students and teachers under is ridiculous. I disagree that we need formalised testing. America ditched NAPLAN and they made it.

Finland dont use formalise testing and they are one of the better education system in the world.

 

[Jack Richards]

Started my teaching resolution and set up my blog and teacher twitter account.. hope it gets some follows

 

[El Dubya]

We have the breakfast whingers. The ones who sit there and have breakfast while whining on one table, while myself and a few others try and have light hearted conversations but get drowned out by the loud ones. One of the ones that whinged happened to be one who threw me under the bus with leadership rather than approach me directly... yet still had the gall to try and talk to me like I didn't know she did it.

The data focus is ridiculous however, but its across all schools due to the focus on NAPLAN and academic results in the media (which is heavily biased against schools and teachers) but I have also mentioned this earlier, they forget to outline the fact that the countries they compare us to have a different culture and mindset to ours. Our Asian neighbours have a culture that teachers should be respected by kids and parents enforce the learning and drive it a lot more as they believe that kids should strive to help care and support them (parents) and their family when they are older.

Also when they look at Finland and Sweden models, there is no formal testing like NAPLAN, instead they trust their teachers and judgement. Also class sizes are smaller and schooling starts later.

Also schools in the inner city and privatised such as Hailbury and Scotch, for the money you pay, you would want the best. Not saying that public schools and what not, shouldn't strive for the best, but if you can afford those fees (and have your child sit an entrance exam just to get in - Nossal High) then I would be peeved if my kid didn't get great grades.

My new position is focused on advocating the use of data, and I disagree that data isn't important. The issue is, and I was reading a Hattie article yesterday supporting this, is that the focus is on raw results rather than growth and value added.

I don't think we will ever develop the laid back culture of the European schools you cited, so we need to look at Asian models of teaching. In Singapore they acknowledged that teachers felt compelled to teach to the state wide tests, so they changed the forms of assessment from rewarding rote learning to rewarding understanding and depth. Our governments are too slow and pathetic to do that, so NAPLAN data will continue to be fairly pointless and VCE scores will reward rote learning.

Having worked in a few elite schools I know that a lot of the kids there would achieve strong scores anywhere, but probably not as high. The weak kids would likely be left to flounder, despite the belief that some of those schools funnel out weaker kids it's actually the small privates that to a much greater degree.

 

[Jack Richards]

My new position is focused on advocating the use of data, and I disagree that data isn't important.

I never said data isn't important. I just said formalised testing such as NAPLAN is pointless. The pressure it puts on schools and students is unbelievable. Our school has our yearly meeting on this and even have had "experts" come in to get us to teach in a way that improves our NAPLAN data e.g changing our whole literacy program. I use data and Google Sheets to monitor and assess my students against the Victorian Curriculum.

I don't think we will ever develop the laid back culture of the European schools you cited, so we need to look at Asian models of teaching. In Singapore they acknowledged that teachers felt compelled to teach to the state wide tests, so they changed the forms of assessment from rewarding rote learning to rewarding understanding and depth.

The Asian model will never work if we do not have the cultural model and respect of the parents. If you look at the Asian model, the parents are very much supportive and will go to no end to get their child the best out of the education (Hence the Tiger Parent label). I can honestly say out of the 8 years I've been teaching my over 80% highest achieving students have been from Asia and India. You only need to look at schools like Nossal High/Wesley College etc most of the students are from other cultural backgrounds.

In these countries, educators are treated very well and academics are valued high to the point where parents seek more ways to educate children such as extra tutoring, home work etc, however I believe that unless the attitudes change from parents and students, we will not achieve those standards. You just need to see how some students treat teachers and not give a rats about homework. I had one parent say "I hated maths and dont think it's important so why should my child. We have calculators." and the constant report that we dont need homework. Kids should just relax at home.

Whilst I agree with this statement. Parents should at least look at ways to support their child and work with the teachers. Not go in with the "What are you going to do about it!" mentality when their kid is behind.

Having worked in a few elite schools I know that a lot of the kids there would achieve strong scores anywhere, but probably not as high. The weak kids would likely be left to flounder, despite the belief that some of those schools funnel out weaker kids it's actually the small privates that to a much greater degree.

The fact that a lot of these school have entrance exams just to get in is a way of funneling. I have had parents pull their child out of our school to send them to an elite 'primary school' because they want their child to get into the likes of Hailbury on an scholarship.

 

[El Dubya]

The fact that a lot of these school have entrance exams just to get in is a way of funneling. I have had parents pull their child out of our school to send them to an elite 'primary school' because they want their child to get into the likes of Hailbury on an scholarship.

Haileybury is absolutely open entry. Pre entry testing can be for scholarships, or it can be for the streaming of classes. The funneling happens at smaller schools like Huntingtower, not Wesley. I know people who finished VCE at Wesley with ENTER scores in the 20s and 30s, surely they would have been funneled out. Don't believe the gossip you hear from people jealous that they're not good enough to work at an elite school.

 

[Jack Richards]

Haileybury is absolutely open entry. Pre entry testing can be for scholarships, or it can be for the streaming of classes. The funneling happens at smaller schools like Huntingtower, not Wesley. I know people who finished VCE at Wesley with ENTER scores in the 20s and 30s, surely they would have been funneled out. Don't believe the gossip you hear from people jealous that they're not good enough to work at an elite school.

Nossal is an entry exam school

 

[El Dubya]

I never said data isn't important. I just said formalised testing such as NAPLAN is pointless. The pressure it puts on schools and students is unbelievable. Our school has our yearly meeting on this and even have had "experts" come in to get us to teach in a way that improves our NAPLAN data e.g changing our whole literacy program. I use data and Google Sheets to monitor and assess my students against the Victorian Curriculum.

That's great for you, but doesn't help the teacher you hand those kids to next year.

The Asian model will never work if we do not have the cultural model and respect of the parents. If you look at the Asian model, the parents are very much supportive and will go to no end to get their child the best out of the education (Hence the Tiger Parent label). I can honestly say out of the 8 years I've been teaching my over 80% highest achieving students have been from Asia and India. You only need to look at schools like Nossal High/Wesley College etc most of the students are from other cultural backgrounds.

In these countries, educators are treated very well and academics are valued high to the point where parents seek more ways to educate children such as extra tutoring, home work etc, however I believe that unless the attitudes change from parents and students, we will not achieve those standards. You just need to see how some students treat teachers and not give a rats about homework. I had one parent say "I hated maths and dont think it's important so why should my child. We have calculators." and the constant report that we dont need homework. Kids should just relax at home.

Whilst I agree with this statement. Parents should at least look at ways to support their child and work with the teachers. Not go in with the "What are you going to do about it!" mentality when their kid is behind.

I'd agree with you if you hadn't included Indian parents, they are the most entitled group I've encountered.

 

[El Dubya]

Nossal is an entry exam school

Nossal is a government science specific school.

 

[Hard Ball Get]

That's great for you, but doesn't help the teacher you hand those kids to next year.

I do the same thing, but the data is exported to a database that is accessible by all staff and shows continual progression.

The new visual "data walls" that the department are trying to push are extremely problematic.

 

[El Dubya]

I do the same thing, but the data is exported to a database that is accessible by all staff and shows continual progression.

The new visual "data walls" that the department are trying to push are extremely problematic.

I haven't worked for the department in years, I wouldn't go back. Each school is different and has it's own challenges. A vice prin put a data wall up in our office where dozens of kids came in every day. They quickly worked out what it meant.

 

[Hard Ball Get]

I haven't worked for the department in years, I wouldn't go back. Each school is different and has it's own challenges. A vice prin put a data wall up in our office where dozens of kids came in every day. They quickly worked out what it meant.

We have the parent issue. Would be diabolical.

 

[boomering]

We dont have parent issues, our kids are generally pretty good, its the other teachers and aspects of leadership that will drive me out of teaching

 

[Jack Richards]

I do the same thing, but the data is exported to a database that is accessible by all staff and shows continual progression.

The new visual "data walls" that the department are trying to push are extremely problematic.

Yep my school is looking to put something like that in (data sheets on the server or stored in Google Drive where everyone can see it.

 

[Breustiful]

Landed my job last month at a school I really enjoyed CRTing for. First time teaching VCE English and I'm already having marking nightmares. Lovely school with a great support network. Rowdy students but respectful nonetheless!

 

[TigerGlory]

Landed my job last month at a school I really enjoyed CRTing for. First time teaching VCE English and I'm already having marking nightmares. Lovely school with a great support network. Rowdy students but respectful nonetheless!

You need to get in the zone and just smash the essays out.

I’ve had two Year 12 English classes the last two years. So 40 year 12 students, marking all of those SACs was an absolute nightmare. Finally gone back to 1 class this year, so now I only have 16 students. Not going to know myself.

 

[Breustiful]

You need to get in the zone and just smash the essays out.

I’ve had two Year 12 English classes the last two years. So 40 year 12 students, marking all of those SACs was an absolute nightmare. Finally gone back to 1 class this year, so now I only have 16 students. Not going to know myself.

Definitely. I mean I've taught Year 11 History (WA Curriculum), so same amount of essays (almost). VCE English is a new thing to me - I'm a Global Politics History major. Will be interesting for a grad like myself.

Ouch, that is painful! Well deserved break this year.

 

[Jack Richards]

We dont have parent issues, our kids are generally pretty good, its the other teachers and aspects of leadership that will drive me out of teaching

Care to elaborate?