Society/Culture This Country Beats France

[bit_pattern]

Hmmm, I'd forgotten about that. Time for some bump-age!

 

[nut]

You could do with some economics training, because wealth NEVER stems from taxation. Tax revenue stems from economic wealth, not the other way round. If you have no resources, no industry, and no economy, then there is no tax revenue to pay for social services.

If Norway had the same economy, the same resources, the same government systems, and the same oil reserves, do you think it would perform poorly if it had a low tax, low government spending environment ? It wouldn't. It may have higher income inequality, but the economy as a whole would not be worse off. Its economic wealth is determined by its resources, its democracy, its low corruption levels, etc, not a high tax, high government spend environment.

What it comes down to for you is you like the fact that the Norwegian government takes care of all your life's stresses, i.e. funding health, education on your behalf. You also like that the income inequality levels are comparitively low when compared to that of Australia or the US. This is an argument for socialism, for treating all as equals. That is fine, you prefer an environment where there is little difference in economic wealth among individuals.

But it has nothing to do with generating and maintaining a successful economy.



Now you are being foolish. NO STRESS AT ALL ? Then why does Norway have one of the highest rates of suicide in the developed world ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_OECD_countries_by_suicide_rate

So the suicide rate is a direct bearing on Stress. Hmmm wow you are an expert on everything

And don't pretend for a minute that the welfare levels in Norway are sufficient to meet day to day living standards, because they don't.

Ummm excuse me??? you really need to investigate it's welfare system. How does 75% of your wage from your job you just lost. Sure it's not %100 percent but most people could deal with that. You also get work credits so the more credits you earn during your working life the better your pension is.. sounds fair to me... pay more tax get better pension.

High tax does not equal higher standard of living for all. It just means that wealth is redistributed from high income earners to low income earners. That is all well and good for low income earners, but I can tell you that I am not happy to fund the lifestyles of unproductive members of society.

No you want to pay less for the "unproductive" members of society, by supporting (at a guess) de-unionising the work force. Reducig workers rights and conditions. These unproductive members do also provide for society.

We all want the government to have our best interests at heart. What we want, and what we actually get are more often than not two different things.

We all know that both sides of politics are more concerned about being re-elected, than making the best choices for the people they represent. If we had better quality politicians/governments, maybe we would have a bit more respect for their efforts, and wouldn't begrudge the tax that I pay. Given that is not the case, I would rather my tax money being in my hands, allowing me to make a decision about how my money is spent, rather than handing it over to incompetent governments to decide on my behalf how it is spent.

Would you be happy if the Norwegian Government ran Australia... they seem pretty competent...

You sure know how to make rash generalisations. Norwegians are happy to have free and universal health care and education, but they are not happy to pay the levels of tax they pay.

Read the link below, many Norwegians are dissatisfied with the high levels of taxes they pay.

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article1891543.ece

Ok So I ask person on the street if he pays to much TAX... wow he says yes. If you asked Norwegians are they happy to reduce it's welfare and justice system by reducing TAX then you would no doubt get a different answer. The problem at the moment in Norway is that they see the huge Sovereignty fund and want to use that instead of the TAXes. But the Government by law can only use %4 of OIL funds surplus. They dont rely on the profits from it's oil.

A person's philosophy comes down to either "design a government system which looks after all, regardless of their respective contribution, and accept that some will be paid more than they contribute (welfare)", or "pay people according to their productivity, rather than their needs, recognising that the most productive in society will be paid more than those who contribute little". Which system you prefer generally comes down to which category you see yourself belonging to, and how this affects you personally.

Australia has long had a system of "give everyone a fair go" meaning that we have expensive health, education, and welfare systems. These system will become unsustainable in the next 20 years, due to the ageing population profile of this country, and we will need to start rationing to make ends meet. Australians are also rightly tired of paying high taxes, and having very little to show for it in terms of quality public health and education. They are also tired of those who contribute nothing, remain unemployed for long periods and expect working people to fund their choice not to work.

Sounds like you like US system... god help us if we go down that road.

Norway has its own problems to think about in future. It knows its oil will run out in future, and has already commenced selling off parts of its state-owned oil business.

Currently, Norway's economic prosperity is largely dependent upon its oil reserves, hence its better economic performance to its Nordic neighbours. When their oil reserves run out, they will be no better off than their neighbours no matter what system of industry they have.

BULLSH!T... they will have a HUGE NEST EGG for future generations... not just for the "now" people.

Yet they will have cultivated an expectation of free government services for life, which may or may not be affordable.

Thats why they have the fund... they will beable to afford it... thats why they stilll TAX so high because they AREN't reliant on the OIL REVENUE.

And as many countries, Norway included, are going to find out, it is very hard to take away government services previously provided for free, no matter how much economic sense it may make to do so.

YES like all those middle class handouts from Howard and Costello.. Baby bonus, FHG, and private health rebates... would have not been better to BANK the surplus we got from the minning boom ...

I also find it interesting that you give Norway a tick on the environment when a large proportion of their economy comes from oil and fishing.

Now now... the environment and Norway.... you DO not want to go there my friend. No other country comes close. Not one piece of fossil fuel is used to power it's grid... It's fishing is sustainable.... and has been for hundreds of years.


yes the oil is running out... but they have banked the profits and are investing this money as part of it's Future fund and it is growing at a rapid rate thanks to some clever investing.

 

[DeanoT]

So the suicide rate is a direct bearing on Stress. Hmmm wow you are an expert on everything

If all was fine and dandy in the world of Norway, it wouldn't have one of the highest suicide rates in the world. Common sense.

Ummm excuse me??? you really need to investigate it's welfare system. How does 75% of your wage from your job you just lost. Sure it's not %100 percent but most people could deal with that. You also get work credits so the more credits you earn during your working life the better your pension is.. sounds fair to me... pay more tax get better pension.

Yet, you pay for this right, don't you see. You pay higher tax, you get more back later. It isn't free money. It is a form of forced saving. It only works if you don't have the financial discipline to save and invest yourself.

No you want to pay less for the "unproductive" members of society, by supporting (at a guess) de-unionising the work force. Reducig workers rights and conditions. These unproductive members do also provide for society.

Actually, if you want to get into the details, the working class actually provide a net negative contribution to Australian economy and society. I could go into detail explaining that one to you, but what would be the point. You realise that the minimum wage is a form of legalised extortion don't you ? It is also a fundamental reason for the decline of manufacturing in developed economies, leading to job reductions for, guess who, the working class.

But I don't expect someone who stated "Norway's wealth stems from high taxes" or "HIGH TAX = higher standard of living" to understand, or more importantly, want to understand any of that.

Would you be happy if the Norwegian Government ran Australia... they seem pretty competent...

A population of 5m people with substantial oil reserves does not make a competent government, it is good fortune. You know how envious other Nordic countries are of Norway ? They are envious of their natural resources, not their "competent government".

Ok So I ask person on the street if he pays to much TAX... wow he says yes. If you asked Norwegians are they happy to reduce it's welfare and justice system by reducing TAX then you would no doubt get a different answer. The problem at the moment in Norway is that they see the huge Sovereignty fund and want to use that instead of the TAXes. But the Government by law can only use %4 of OIL funds surplus. They dont rely on the profits from it's oil.

Interpret the article to fit your own beliefs if you wish. It is clear, Norwegians are tired of paying through the arse for everything.

Sounds like you like US system... god help us if we go down that road.

I don't want the US system. The US is big government spending, and falling apart at the seams. But if you are referring to a system whereby the productive are rewarded more, at the expense of having a welfare state, then yes I would be happy to see it. And I won't be needing help from God, or anyone, should it happen.

YES like all those middle class handouts from Howard and Costello.. Baby bonus, FHG, and private health rebates... would have not been better to BANK the surplus we got from the minning boom ...

LOL, you want universal health care and education, but you bemoan middle class handouts. Sounds like you want welfare for the stupid class, and no-one else. Your envy is obvious and ugly.

Now now... the environment and Norway.... you DO not want to go there my friend. No other country comes close. Not one piece of fossil fuel is used to power it's grid... It's fishing is sustainable.... and has been for hundreds of years.

Who cares about what its own energy source is if it is selling oil the world over. Would be like Australia developing clean energy sources, claiming it was leading the world for efficient energy use, all the while supplying brown coal to China by the ship full. Hypocritical argument.

 

[placebo]

What's wrong with a self-interested philosophy? If people wanna work and use their money to make their own lives happier and better, then damn right they should do it.

 

[medusala]

In Australia we hate paying Tax... we hate the government... and trust only ourselves to look after us, which leads us to a very selfish society, one that has a "whats in it for me " philosophy.

Of course Australians hate tax. Any rational person can see that politicians of both parties simply waste the money.

Tax is simply legalised theft.

Social Justice is simply a cop out whereby the masses can alleviate their guilt by foisting higher taxes on others rather than actually doing something charitable themselves.

A charade easily seen through.

Something the previous government promoted to it's dying day and the present government does very little to address.

Werent you one of those banging on about how high taxes were under Howard and how profligate his budgets were?

We could do far worse than to follow Norway lead economics, environment, social justice and investing in it's future.

Yes we could follow Venezuela.

Norway has nothing to offer Australia other than some very attractive women.

All that oil money and still incredibly high taxes. Staggering.

 

[nut]

Of course Australians hate tax. Any rational person can see that politicians of both parties simply waste the money.

Tax is simply legalised theft.

Social Justice is simply a cop out whereby the masses can alleviate their guilt by foisting higher taxes on others rather than actually doing something charitable themselves.

A charade easily seen through.

... all those foundations se up-to avoid TAX. The fact is the Rich are rich because someone is poor...

Werent you one of those banging on about how high taxes were under Howard and how profligate his budgets were?

I have never advocated lowering TAX.

Yes we could follow Venezuela.

Norway has nothing to offer Australia other than some very attractive women.

I would have they have about 600 Billion things they could offer us...

All that oil money and still incredibly high taxes. Staggering.

They DONT SPEND THE PROFITS FROM OIL... THEY INVEST IT FOR IT"S FUTURE and FOR WHEN THE OIL HAS RUN OUT.

Our IRON ore will run out one day and we will have nothing to show for it...

 

[BigBadCam]

They DONT SPEND THE PROFITS FROM OIL... THEY INVEST IT FOR IT"S FUTURE and FOR WHEN THE OIL HAS RUN OUT.

Our IRON ore will run out one day and we will have nothing to show for it...

You see the size of this country? We don't have a whole lot to worry about. Also, Howard had a nice budget surplus going on...

 

[nut]

You see the size of this country? We don't have a whole lot to worry about. Also, Howard had a nice budget surplus going on...

REALLY.... wow 20 billion after the biggest mining boom this country has ever seen... wow. I'll take my hat off to him.

You see the size of this country?

??? so? have you seen the tunnel network in Norway and the money they have spent on infrastructure, public transport? Hydro electricity???????

 

[BigBadCam]

REALLY.... wow 20 billion after the biggest mining boom this country has ever seen... wow. I'll take my hat off to him.

??? so? have you seen the tunnel network in Norway and the money they have spent on infrastructure, public transport? Hydro electricity???????

Blame KRudd andc his ridiculous spending. None of it has been on required infrastructure. Roads are falling apart, public transport is old and s**t and he's out building new sxhool halls. Who gives a **** what type of room schools have their assembly in? Half the schools were making up things wrong with their buildings also so as to get extra funding from the federal government. Also, it might have been the biggest boom this country has seen, but there will be bigger booms.

 

[nut]

Blame KRudd andc his ridiculous spending. None of it has been on required infrastructure. Roads are falling apart, public transport is old and s**t and he's out building new sxhool halls. Who gives a **** what type of room schools have their assembly in? Half the schools were making up things wrong with their buildings also so as to get extra funding from the federal government. Also, it might have been the biggest boom this country has seen, but there will be bigger booms.

Should we blame Rudd for the recession we just had too??? Hang on....

 

[DeanoT]

Should we blame Rudd for the recession we just had too??? Hang on....

Nah, we'll give the credit to Norway.

 

[medusala]

They DONT SPEND THE PROFITS FROM OIL... THEY INVEST IT FOR IT"S FUTURE and FOR WHEN THE OIL HAS RUN OUT.

Our IRON ore will run out one day and we will have nothing to show for it...

Norway would be far, far better off with no future fund and lower taxes.

What makes you think a future fund will generate a higher return than lower taxes? The obvious logical extension to your argument is the government making all investment decisions on behalf of its citizens (not to mention owning all the resources).

It is staggering that this level of misology exists. I can't believe that people could actually come around to these beliefs themselves.

Were they foisted on you whilst doing first year arts?

 

[DeanoT]

Norway would be far, far better off with no future fund and lower taxes.

What makes you think a future fund will generate a higher return than lower taxes? The obvious logical extension to your argument is the government making all investment decisions on behalf of its citizens (not to mention owning all the resources).

It is staggering that this level of misology exists. I can't believe that people could actually come around to these beliefs themselves.

Were they foisted on you whilst doing first year arts?

I'm firmly of the belief that you need to be trained from birth to hold onto the most illogical conclusion that the government knows how to use your money better than you do.

 

[nut]

Yes less rely on the private sector to build roads... schools, hospitals and utilities that we all need. You really believe that the cost of living will be reduced by having private, profiteering companies control these sectors?

Lets look at the US health system and see what it actually costs per person compared .... I give up..... bye.

 

[DeanoT]

Yes less rely on the private sector to build roads... schools, hospitals and utilities that we all need. You really believe that the cost of living will be reduced by having private, profiteering companies control these sectors?

Lets look at the US health system and see what it actually costs per person compared .... I give up..... bye.

Gotta love how you throw in the US to support your arguments. The US is now a high tax, and even higher spending government, and is in a financial mess. No-one is looking to model their economy.

 

[placebo]

Yes less rely on the private sector to build roads... schools, hospitals and utilities that we all need. You really believe that the cost of living will be reduced by having private, profiteering companies control these sectors?

Lets look at the US health system and see what it actually costs per person compared .... I give up..... bye.

Ah, the ignorant statement that always comes up. The US health system is absolutely riddled with government intervention. The government spends a ridiculous amount on their health care and it's a shambles. Making the US system completely private would lead to far far better results then what they currently have.

 

[medusala]

Lets look at the US health system and see what it actually costs per person compared .... I give up..... bye.

You argue for more taxes and higher spending and then produce an example where far higher than normal spending produces a poor outcome.

Interesting approach.

 

[fairdinkum]

Of course Australians hate tax. Any rational person can see that politicians of both parties simply waste the money.

Tax is simply legalised theft.

I'm firmly of the belief that you need to be trained from birth to hold onto the most illogical conclusion that the government knows how to use your money better than you do.

Tell me about it, fellas.

I know a whole heap of people who are quite happy to hand over plenty of tax dollars to the guvmint in order to continue to run a loss-making business -- the 'army'.

Not us though, hey?

 

[Richo83]

Our defense force has to be one of the worst wasters of money in this country, seasprites, collins class subs, they go through money like water. Our soldiers are well trained, don't talk about their equipment though.

 

[Dont be a lemon]

Sad to see medusala is still dragging down the standard of debates here.

 

[TheBloods]

They DONT SPEND THE PROFITS FROM OIL... THEY INVEST IT FOR IT"S FUTURE and FOR WHEN THE OIL HAS RUN OUT.

Our IRON ore will run out one day and we will have nothing to show for it...

Or they could lower taxes, people could earn more and thus contribute more to superannuation, and hence have greater control and ownership in their long-term future, rather than rely on the government doing the right thing with the funds (which rarely happens).

 

[TheBloods]

Yes less rely on the private sector to build roads... schools, hospitals and utilities that we all need. You really believe that the cost of living will be reduced by having private, profiteering companies control these sectors?

Lets look at the US health system and see what it actually costs per person compared .... I give up..... bye.

This is a ridiculous, extreme argument. You think the only alternative to massive government involvement is a totally private system?

 

[medusala]

Sad to see medusala is still dragging down the standard of debates here.

Do actually have anything at all to offer with respect to the economy of France or Norway in comparison to Australia?

Again all you manage is a pathetic snipe with no semblance of an argument. If you believe another poster is incorrect then how about making an effort to point out the error of their argument.

Where are all your arguments in favour of high taxes?

 

[bit_pattern]

Or they could lower taxes, people could earn more and thus contribute more to superannuation, and hence have greater control and ownership in their long-term future, rather than rely on the government doing the right thing with the funds (which rarely happens).

The market ahsn't done a real good job either. My mum and my uncle both inherited a reasonable sum of money a few years back, due to circumstance she sank her money into a part ownership of a property to help out a friend, he put his into super, her property hasn't lost value (although it hasn't gained anything either) whereas his super has taken a 25% hit. As you well know, I'm no economy-speaking guy, but it seems to me pretty ludicrous to be selling off all of our raw minerals to foreigners while pouring our savings into the stock market.

I've always like the idea of having a super fund that governments can draw on to invest in infrastructure rther than just gambling it on the stock market, that seems to me a better way to build wealth.

 

[medusala]

I've always like the idea of having a super fund that governments can draw on to invest in infrastructure rther than just gambling it on the stock market, that seems to me a better way to build wealth.

Its not simply gambling. The stock market provides a mechanism for companies to raise equity. This assists capital formation.

Companies fail. That is the nature of capitalism. However, it has been shown time and time again the private sector allocates capital far better than governments.

Not only that but if a private company fail it (should) only affect equity and debt holders of that company.

When politicians waste billions as per the broadband folly taxpayers cop it in the neck whether they like it or not.