This Hawks team. POTENTIALLY the best ever ?

arupist

Premium Platinum
Joined
Oct 2, 2005
Posts
5,679
Likes
7,842
Location
Sydney
AFL Club
Hawthorn
#51
Reckon Chris Mew, at 189 cm, might struggle a little against some of today's CHFs. Must say, though, he is one of my all-time faves.

This is what makes it difficult to compare sides from different eras. Brereton, for example, is the same height as Burgoyne and Lewis. So if you were playing in 1985, you could select Silk at CHF, and play Dermie in the back pocket in 2014. Weird!

Prefer to leave players in their own era and retain fond memories of all that has gone before.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Billyc

Club Legend
Joined
Oct 17, 2009
Posts
2,672
Likes
5,965
AFL Club
Hawthorn
#52
This current era side has won 2 flags and been a contender for 6-7 years (in an era of equalization and 18 teams). At almost any other club it would warrant real discussion in its 'best ever' debate, especially if we win another flag.

But at Hawthorn, this group would need to win 2 more to enter the debate.
 

Hawkk

Hall of Famer
Joined
Sep 17, 2004
Posts
38,572
Likes
11,768
Location
Australia
AFL Club
Hawthorn
#53
This current era side has won 2 flags and been a contender for 6-7 years (in an era of equalization and 18 teams). At almost any other club it would warrant real discussion in its 'best ever' debate, especially if we win another flag.

But at Hawthorn, this group would need to win 2 more to enter the debate.
As it stands, its not even our 2nd best ever.

That probably says more about the club than it does about the current era
 

Bosk

Brownlow Medallist
Suspended
Joined
Feb 22, 2009
Posts
19,617
Likes
19,296
Location
LOL @ Norf
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
GeeLOL sucks, so does $hitney
#54
Not so sure about that squire.....Derm, Dipper & Ayres would frighten the begeezus out of most of our current crop!....Hell, most of them go missing against the Cats, hate to see them against true toughness & hard grit!

Also, while we are at it, if Scotty, Barney, Derm, Dipper & Ayres were playing the Cats, then you can be damn sure that Selwood, Johnson & Bartel would not have left the field of their own volition in half those games & the result would be the other way dear chap.....You can take that to the bank!

This current crop by comparison with the 70's & 80's are a pack of soft cocks!
Agreed. Which is not to say I blame them, these young blokes are a product of the times they live in. The game has changed, and no longer rewards physical toughness. If anything when you consider moronic additions like the "below the knees" rule the game it actually penalizes courageous players now.

Back in 70s & 80s if you weren't tough you got found out very quickly. A kid like Jack Watts would've lasted all of 5 minutes on a VFL footy field before dashing to the safety of the bench.
Mental toughness though that's a different thing, and there's no doubt in my mind that's where our current team is suspect. Would our 1988 side have lost the 2012 GF to a bunch of "good honest triers" in Sydney? Not a snowball's chance in hell.


Like I said, the team we have now is light years away from our 88/89 outfit. Essentially its comparing boys against men.
 

Thaihawk

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Aug 13, 2006
Posts
16,054
Likes
19,416
Location
Thailand
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Box Hill Hawks.
#55
Getting a little ahead of ourselves
I'm sure the likes of dermie and dipper would beg to disagree
I'm sure there are a lot of us long time Hawk supporters who agree with you, CP.

However, the OP does emphasize potential, and with that I have to agree. Footy history will tell us the record for the greatest number of games was held by KB for what seemed like an eternity, and many thought it would never be broken. We all know what happened there. Bob Pratt' 150 season goals was another record that was considered almost invincible. Once again, we know what happened.

We also know the loss of greats from our team of the seventies were adequately replaced in the eighties, many thought retirements would mean a drop down the ladder. Again, the Mighty Hawks didn't only stand up. we took another step.

So, there has been a solid basis for some very strong years to come which means the potential is there. We are are go to club, very well run, and structured, so let's see what happens from here.

One thing I can guarantee is the club will not be getting ahead of itself like many of the fans on this board.

Let's concentrate on Sydney for now.
 
Joined
Jul 10, 2008
Posts
505
Likes
673
Location
Adelaide
AFL Club
Hawthorn
#56
The 80s team will probably never be surpassed by any club, because equalisation had not taken full effect, and the competition was smaller. We can't just go out and recruit a Dunstall, Platten or Buckenara. So in defence of the current crop, they are doing well to stay up this long, along with Geelong much as I hate to say it. I am just enjoying watching them play, and feel blessed to be a Hawk. The good times always end, but we are always Hawthorn.
 
Joined
Feb 24, 2013
Posts
35,151
Likes
28,979
Location
The GoldenBrown Heart of Victoria
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Man Utd Green Bay Melb Storm
#57
Agreed. Which is not to say I blame them, these young blokes are a product of the times they live in. The game has changed, and no longer rewards physical toughness. If anything when you consider moronic additions like the "below the knees" rule the game it actually penalizes courageous players now.

Back in 70s & 80s if you weren't tough you got found out very quickly. A kid like Jack Watts would've lasted all of 5 minutes on a VFL footy field before dashing to the safety of the bench.
Mental toughness though that's a different thing, and there's no doubt in my mind that's where our current team is suspect. Would our 1988 side have lost the 2012 GF to a bunch of "good honest triers" in Sydney? Not a snowball's chance in hell.


Like I said, the team we have now is light years away from our 88/89 outfit. Essentially its comparing boys against men.

Spot on....Mental toughness means giving as good as you get & not putting up with being continuously man-handled & doing nothing about it!

It starts in our heads & works its way down our bodies until we freeze completely....It has taken Roughead until this week to finally have shaken off the malaise he falls into in the Cats games.

Until our blokes stand up to the Cats to the man, take em on & meet them in every physical contest & win on the scoreboard; then I shall remain terminally unconvinced by this current teams standing as being anywhere near that of the 70's & 80's.
 

Roddy

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Posts
9,385
Likes
8,175
Location
M-Town
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Aussie Cricket team.
#58
This...

The comparison is excellent...

1971 is 2008 (the start of the dynasty)
1974 is 2011
1975 is 2012 (huge favourites)
1976 is 2013
1978 is hopefully 2014 or 2015

The 1970's is a greatly underrated era for Hawthorn,obviously overshaddowed by our 80's success. For most other clubs it would have grounds to be considered the era in its own right.

Between the 70's, 80's/early 90's and late 00's/10's we are the most spoilt club in Australian sport
Yep, the 70s is an underrated era. We only won one less flag in the 70s than we did in the 80s!

Hawks '71 to '91, arguably the most glorious run of sustained success in the history of the VFL/AFL. Rivalled only by the Pies in the 20s and 30s and Dees in the 50s and 60s. People talk about Geelong's recent run being some kind of 'dynasty', and the 'greatest ever'. People have short memories. 3 flags in 5 years is a kitten's piss in the Pacific Ocean. Sustain it for 2 decades and then we can talk....
 

Bosk

Brownlow Medallist
Suspended
Joined
Feb 22, 2009
Posts
19,617
Likes
19,296
Location
LOL @ Norf
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
GeeLOL sucks, so does $hitney
#60
Spot on....Mental toughness means giving as good as you get & not putting up with being continuously man-handled & doing nothing about it!

It starts in our heads & works its way down our bodies until we freeze completely....It has taken Roughead until this week to finally have shaken off the malaise he falls into in the Cats games.

Until our blokes stand up to the Cats to the man, take em on & meet them in every physical contest & win on the scoreboard; then I shall remain terminally unconvinced by this current teams standing as being anywhere near that of the 70's & 80's.
Mate this is the thing - footy has changed. These days winning is not so much about having individual players stand up under pressure but rather the system and structure of the team as a whole, especially when it comes to defense.

What that does is make it a LOT easier to carry players who are a mentally or physically soft.

If you dumped today's players back in 70s or 80s footy which was played exclusively man on man, where winning one on one contests was critical to success, there would be no structures to hide behind and a good number of them would be found out.
On the other hand, blokes like Mitchell, Hodge & Burgoyne would do just fine. Hodge would've done even better back then as his lack of pace (for a midfielder) or height (for a KPP) wouldn'tve been a factor at all.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Joined
Feb 24, 2013
Posts
35,151
Likes
28,979
Location
The GoldenBrown Heart of Victoria
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Man Utd Green Bay Melb Storm
#63
Mate this is the thing - footy has changed. These days winning is not so much about having individual players stand up under pressure but rather the system and structure of the team as a whole, especially when it comes to defense.

What that does is make it a LOT easier to carry players who are a mentally or physically soft.

If you dumped today's players back in 70s or 80s footy which was played exclusively man on man, where winning one on one contests was critical to success, there would be no structures to hide behind and a good number of them would be found out.
On the other hand, blokes like Mitchell, Hodge & Burgoyne would do just fine. Hodge would've done even better back then as his lack of pace (for a midfielder) or height (for a KPP) wouldn'tve been a factor at all.
All you say here is true.....But for one very important stipulation.....Grand Finals always have & always will be contested on a one on one format!...Until Clarko & our mob come up with the goods against the Cats with all things being equal on this stage & in this current climate & win convincingly in both a physical & scoreboard sense, then I shall remain unconvinced!....Fact is, things fell our way last year & we got lucky...Simple as that!
 

Brishawk

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Posts
15,461
Likes
21,409
Location
Brisvegas
AFL Club
Hawthorn
#64
We might be softer than our 80s team. But they couldn't get get away with these days either. I still recon our current team would win easily if matched up against our best 80s team. They wouldn't be able to keep up with the pace and compete against the structures in place these days.
Fitness and foot skills are far superior these days. Would the 80s team be as good comparatively if they had the benefit of modern training and development? Who knows. Almost impossible to compare players across eras. Much easier to compare teams' relative success.
 

Dan87

Club Legend
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Posts
2,475
Likes
2,802
Location
Adelaide
AFL Club
Sydney
#65
Hi guys,

Congratulations on your success over the last three decades. Definitely a dominant modern club. I look forward to the game on the weekend. It had me thinking if someone could put a finger on what happens differently at Hawthorn and their culture that allows them to get on top of the comp regularly? I mean, statistics would have you as the best accomplished club of the last 30 years I suspect.
 

Pessimistic

TheBrownDog
Joined
Sep 13, 2000
Posts
66,316
Likes
26,034
Location
Melbourne cricket ground. Australia
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Horks
Thread starter #66
If (and its a very big if) the hawks beat the Cats in a PF or GF and secures another premiership then they should be rated higher than the Geelong 07-now era but they wont be.
Even if that happens in truth well be a cats whisker behind them.

Wont stop the comparisons though
 

Pessimistic

TheBrownDog
Joined
Sep 13, 2000
Posts
66,316
Likes
26,034
Location
Melbourne cricket ground. Australia
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Horks
Thread starter #67
All you say here is true.....But for one very important stipulation.....Grand Finals always have & always will be contested on a one on one format!...Until Clarko & our mob come up with the goods against the Cats with all things being equal on this stage & in this current climate & win convincingly in both a physical & scoreboard sense, then I shall remain unconvinced!....Fact is, things fell our way last year & we got lucky...Simple as that!
Scoreboard says we a were a touch lucky in 89
 

Pessimistic

TheBrownDog
Joined
Sep 13, 2000
Posts
66,316
Likes
26,034
Location
Melbourne cricket ground. Australia
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Horks
Thread starter #68
From the few home and away games I saw back then it seems the game plan then was to just do stuff till near the end of the game then wake up and just put teams away convincingly

Absolutely dominating the h&a seems to have come about after carlton 95 and essendon 2000
 

flinchfree

Club Legend
Joined
Jan 30, 2014
Posts
2,792
Likes
5,505
AFL Club
Hawthorn
#69
Back in 70s & 80s if you weren't tough you got found out very quickly. A kid like Jack Watts would've lasted all of 5 minutes on a VFL footy field before dashing to the safety of the bench.
Mental toughness though that's a different thing, and there's no doubt in my mind that's where our current team is suspect. Would our 1988 side have lost the 2012 GF to a bunch of "good honest triers" in Sydney? Not a snowball's chance in hell.


Like I said, the team we have now is light years away from our 88/89 outfit. Essentially its comparing boys against men.
Not sure I agree.
We had lots of light weights in the 80's who ran around pretty fearlessly because of the enforcers on our team.
Pritchard was not a great stand under the high ball kind of guy.
Dean Anderson had crazy hair but didn't bust open many packs.
Rocket wasn't exactly tough (I'm being nice), Judge loved a run at the high ball but not much else, Abbott was a softy soft big man, Whitman was a receiver, you could go on and on.
The reason those boys stood tall was because of Andy Collins, Ayers, Langford, Mew, Brereton, Condo, Lethal, and the man who sorted out any who targeted us - the Big Dipper. Robert Dipierdominico, now he was a REAL he man.
Do we have tough guys today? Yeah.
Gibbo is tough as teak. Goo was granite. Hodge is steely. Mitch is, through his commitment to the ball. Cyril is fearless.
But you don't need the same type you once did, and to be honest - I'm glad.
The other stuff was buffoonery. I want to see bravery through commitment to the ball, not to taking someone out if they fell unfortunately in your path.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Feb 24, 2013
Posts
35,151
Likes
28,979
Location
The GoldenBrown Heart of Victoria
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Man Utd Green Bay Melb Storm
#70
Absolutely dominating the h&a seems to have come about after carlton 95 and essendon 2000[/QUOTE]

Hawthorn 1988/1989 Played 48 Won 42 Lost 6.....Winning Percentage 87%......Now that's elite domination of the competition, & over 2 seasons for 2 Premierships not just a single one!

We also had a 21/3 record in 1971....Not too shabby either. And last year 2013, we went 22/3, our best yet!
Not sure I agree.
We had lots of light weights in the 80's who ran around pretty fearlessly because of the enforcers on our team.
Pritchard was not a great stand under the high ball kind of guy.
Dean Anderson was only outside.
Rocket wasn't exactly tough (I'm being nice), Judge loved a run at the high ball but not much else, Abbott was a softy soft big man, Whitman was a receiver, you could go on and on.
The reason those boys stood tall was because of Andy Collins, Ayers, Langford, Mew, Brereton, Condo, Lethal, and the man who sorted out any who targeted us - the Big Dipper. Robert Dipierdominico, now he was a REAL he man.
Do we have tough guys today? Yeah.
Gibbo is tough as teak. Goo was granite. Hodge is steely. Mitch is, through his commitment to the ball. Cyril is fearless.
But you don't need the same type you once did, and to be honest - I'm glad.
The other stuff was buffoonery. I want to see bravery through commitment to the ball, not to taking someone out if they fell unfortunately in your path.
Rocket wasn't tough hey?.....Mate did you even see him play?.....Do me a favor & watch the 1986 Grand Final & wash your mouth out with soap!
Judge not tough???....Seriously mate, I don't know where your getting your info from but you are way off the mark there!....This bloke never took a backwards step on the field, was a gun boxer & could knock a bloke out with one punch, which I saw him do with my own eyes at Victoria Park against Fitzroy.
Wittman a receiver....O.K now your just being silly.....Wittman was a tough & uncompromising in & under small, who stood up in big games when it mattered, unlike half our blokes today against the Cats, who could learn a thing or 2 off Witts!

In short your comments here are as ridiculous as they are absurd!
 

Flukey!

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Sep 23, 2005
Posts
8,256
Likes
5,969
Location
Premiership Central
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Arsenal, Toronto BlueJays
#71
Potentially........of course it could, but it would mean a couple more really good years for the club.
We would need to win this year and next or 2016 to be rated equal to or better than that '80's team.
 

HR Roughnstuf

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Oct 16, 2006
Posts
6,831
Likes
12,023
Location
Australia
AFL Club
Hawthorn
#72
Even if that happens in truth well be a cats whisker behind them.

Wont stop the comparisons though
This is why I classified the statement with a win against geelong in the PF or GF.

If Hawks won premeirship this year thats 3, same as Geelong, but 2 of those back to back.

Plus in finals Hawks would hold a 3-1 record with Geelongs win only a QF.

This is Federer Nadal type stuff
 

flinchfree

Club Legend
Joined
Jan 30, 2014
Posts
2,792
Likes
5,505
AFL Club
Hawthorn
#73
The Hawk teams of the 80s were much better than what we have seen from the current team.
The crucial difference is mental toughness. I certainly can't recall the 80s teams being psyched out by any team like we are now by Geelong. Even after losing two GFs to Essendon the Hawks bounced back while Essendon went into decline.
They also played in 9 consecutive grand finals.
It is no offense to our boys but they have a long way to go to challenge for our greatest ever team.
This isn't totally true.
Even when we were really really good in the 80's, we lost the 84' GrandFinal when the bombers had not quite yet arrived....that one I would have bet the kids on us winning.
Unfortunately my best mate is a Blue boy, and while we shared Princess Park I went to every H&A there against the baggers and we must have lost 6-8 in a row to Carlton. They had this frickin 3rd quarter thing on where they would just kick 7-9 goals in the 3rd and take it from us...Ughh, sickening, and those blues supporters were so bloody arrogant. God I love how things have shaken out for them :D.
The Woods at Victoria Park was also a miserable day many a trip. No matter how bad they usually were or wobbly or not, they could turn it on against us out there with Billy Picken and the Shaw brothers tearing it up. Not sure what our record out there was, but it never felt good.

So good as we were in that time, and we were brilliant, to think we didn't have bogey teams that played us better than others ala Geelong of today, or that our 'mental toughness' meant we never had let downs against certain teams just isn't true.
 
Joined
Feb 24, 2013
Posts
35,151
Likes
28,979
Location
The GoldenBrown Heart of Victoria
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Man Utd Green Bay Melb Storm
#74
Potentially........of course it could, but it would mean a couple more really good years for the club.
We would need to win this year and next or 2016 to be rated equal to or better than that '80's team.
No, even with 2 more elite years with at least another Premiership then this generation would only be the equal of the 70's era!
 

flinchfree

Club Legend
Joined
Jan 30, 2014
Posts
2,792
Likes
5,505
AFL Club
Hawthorn
#75
Absolutely dominating the h&a seems to have come about after carlton 95 and essendon 2000

Rocket wasn't tough hey?.....Mate did you even see him play?.....Do me a favor & watch the 1986 Grand Final & wash your mouth out with soap!
Judge not tough???....Seriously mate, I don't know where your getting your info from but you are way off the mark there!....This bloke never took a backwards step on the field, was a gun boxer & could knock a bloke out with one punch, which I saw him do with my own eyes at Victoria Park against Fitzroy.
Wittman a receiver....O.K now your just being silly.....Wittman was a tough & uncompromising in & under small, who stood up in big games when it mattered, unlike half our blokes today against the Cats, who could learn a thing or 2 off Witts!

In short your comments here are as ridiculous as they are absurd!
[/QUOTE]

Sorry buddy, but you're the one who come's off sounding the idiot.
I was 15 years old in 83' and had been going to the footy to watch my Hawks since 78'.
My birthday is the 30th of September so Grandfinal day from 83-91 WAS my birthday.
I never went out Saturday night before watching the replay, even if the Hawks only made the highlights.
That 80's time was my football life.
I watched everyone of those boys real close, and just because you think differently, sorry, doesn't make you close to being right.
Good luck to you though, those rose colored glasses will be handy in your old age ;)
 
Top Bottom