Discussion Thoughts at the Bye

[L_W_P]

A win on the weekend would have been great but can't complain at 7-3 What I will say though is that we caught Freo and the Dogs at the right time. Could very well be 5-5.

Would like to see a bit more selection integrity. Windy needs a run. Membrey needs to find form, quickly.

I still think we need a genuine FB option. If JVE can come on quickly I think it will really open up the possibilities in our back 6 re: Howard and Battle being freed up. Howard's best work has always been at CHB and it's still a concern when he gets caught 1 on 1 on the last line.

Fix that and we will be in a very strong position going forward.

 

[Remboy]

I have Billings coming in for Paton which I think would be an upgrade (on Paton). It's predicated on moving Sincs to the midfield to try and get a point of difference there; if we do that we need someone who can play HBF.

With Webster, Stocker and NWM I’m not sure we do. Nothing against Paton but if he’s not playing as a small defender I don’t think there’s a place for him in the team. I’d rather Billings or Windhager starting on the wing. I think both would be more damaging.

 

[Remboy]

I am usually accused of being a deluded club fanboi more than negative, but what I saw on the weekend really filled me with plenty of concerns.

Killed on the spread, outnumbered at the fall of the ball, smashed in the mids. Earlier in the year, we would cover the switch with hard running to zone it off. On Saturday the Hawks had free men constantly not just at half back, but on the wing, half forward then to a chest marking forward. Saw more uncontested chest marks in our defensive 50 in one game than I have seen for the whole season.

To say we turned up on Saturday is to not look at the facts above. To have Sharman as sub was ludicrious, missing Owens already then when Clark went down, our barely functioning mids were even more down. Lyon moved of Sinclair to the mids but that exposed us at half back. Windhager should have been the sub, really poor selection.
Plain fact is that Hawthorn soundly beat us, and we deserved to lose. Their kicking only allowed us to be close.

In a way it was a good loss to have prior to the bye. Prefer if we had of fluked a win and be 8-3 but at least this very very poor performance can focus the groups mind to get back to what they were doing early on.

So it is not just having a sook about losing, the last month apart from the GWS win, we have looked ordinary and it seems like where we are as a team and strategy is being found out.
We are second only to WCE on the injury front in the league, so being 5th at the bye is a goods result overall. Does not detract from the glaring issues exposed by the 16th placed team on the weekend.

It was interesting watching the game from level 3. You could see the Hawks setting up along the boundary where our preference seems to be to go more through the centre. Whoever won the ball from stoppages was going to have an advantage.
The selection of sub was odd to me. Up until this week we’ve favoured runners. Thought it was strange to have a tall. Given how much of the game is about running, you can’t afford to be down a midfield rotation for most of the game. Would that have made a difference in the last five minutes when the game was on the line? Possibly.

 

[Sully111]

Ross's comments about Billings being a forward tell me we won't see him for a while. If the coach isn't willing to put him somewhere else, I can't see him pushing Higgins or Butler out

 

[Klaatu]

With Webster, Stocker and NWM I’m not sure we do. Nothing against Paton but if he’s not playing as a small defender I don’t think there’s a place for him in the team. I’d rather Billings or Windhager starting on the wing. I think both would be more damaging.

Who played on Breust ? that should of been Paton's job right from the start, we are not playing a lockdown small backman & that's his role.

 

[MordySaint]

Ross inherited Steele as Capt no doubt & he wanted to have a look at it & i'm not sure Wilkie is the answer either a Capt needs to be at the coal face of a side not sitting in a corner of the ground minding his opponent.

We haven't really developed anyone for that role or even brought in a younger player into the leadership group that they can nurture maybe the Poo but this is his 1st year or Owens who will play M/F for 10 years.

I was one of the ones that wanted Mav Weller over Geary to be captain. The Geary years were really really void of any development.

FYI - Mav Weller has gone on to be the coach of Tasmania VFL and I wouldn't be surprised if he gets the first ever coaching position when Tasmania come into the league.

Your captain is your most important player on the ground.

 

[SaintTwitch]

I'm going to have a different take than most... and generally leave the footy/ coaching discussion to others here that are far more intelligent than I, but here goes..

I will start by saying our performance on the weekend was worse than poor, and it all started with the midfield. Everyone here has covered what my views are on the matter, so will leave that.

However, on RTB and this being a 'year of exploration', I am as annoyed at everyone here with the likes of Windy not getting a game, especially with how our midfield has been performing but I see it as Ross trying to determine which players he knows will stand up when things are down, and who won't. Yes - giving the players the mulligan for our Adelaide game was just crap, and we have been poor for a month, but in my opinion he is seeing which of the senior players are going to stand up and lead when it matters.

When I listen to his press conferences it gives me the vibe that even he has question marks over the leadership group, and who the senior leaders are.. I personally don't think he rates the leadership group he has.. but then again when you've had leaders such as Roo, Lenny, BJ and Pav, Fyfe etc the bar is high... where it should be. Also some of the things he says about how different his approach is leads me to believe he knows that the group as a whole are mentally 'soft' - which it has been since he left, and is being careful to... well basically not put someone in an asylum.

Regardless of where we finish, I am expecting wholesale changes at the end of the year (A grade Midfielders with pace please), and we may see a new leadership group going into 2024.

From a personal perspective if I was told at the start of the year that we would be top 8, being 7-4 and only lose to the Pies and Port by a goal in those 4 losses... I would have taken that every day of the week.. I just hope we show up against Sydney after the boy, and not play like last year... if that happens...

 

[Mat Mann]

Rossy said it was a year of exploration, let's explore. I'd like to see more Owens, Windy, and Pou in the center bounce. King and Hammer together for the rest of the year. We've really lost that attacking spark we had, ignored so many easy hit ups yesterday, that take ground and keep the oppo moving instead we go slower and let them get numbers behind, and bomb long into 50 from 85m out. over and over and over and over and over and over, Hawks completely outran us, outdared us.

 

[Desperate saint]

All these negative comments about our club are getting really repetitive, the same posters with the same agenda.

RTB nearly got us over the line against the Hawks when we were completely outplayed in all areas, that's a huge positive. If it had of been Richo or Ratten then we would have been flogged by 80 points.

I actually went and saw Hawthorn live in Launceston and they are an extremely well drilled and strong team. Their midfield is strong, fast and classy. I did not expect an easy match.

The only match when I felt we didn't turn up was against Adelaide, that's one in 11 matches,

Yes we have the same issues as last year, namely a few of our older players who haven't improved, nor ever will. They need to be culled and not offered lower salary contracts because the club can't get anyone else.

Never said this year was going to be easy, but we are moving forward. Watch when our end of year financial statements come out, our club is in a lot better place financially than any time for over a decade. I also believe we have the pillars of a quality side, its going to be a rollercoaster but we need to trust in the fact that we have the right people in place to take us there now.

Mitchell has upgraded his Midfield as his no 1 prioity his engine room-all premierships are generally won in the midfield-I want us to focus on that- we will never win anything with our current Mids -slow and slow high kicks into the fwd 50-the Hawks young midfield was brilliant

 

[Diehard Saint]

Everyone seems to have this attitude that leadership is just something you have.

I can think of one St Kilda coach who actually tried to cultivate it.

I loved the rotation system. Created plenty of leaders who didn't necessarily have the "c" next to their name.

 

[BucketsandBanger]

He's playing it in a very measured way. He can't roast players every week or he'll lose them. All we can do is sort the wheat from the chaff and move players out who aren't going to perform.

I think some of the older players are struggling not to fall into bad habits, a bad loss gives us a reason to swing the axe. Steele out for Windhager or Bytel, Ross out for one of them otherwise and play Steele forward and Owens in the middle.

Probably time to make some changes and see what we have now. One bad game is a bad day, a bad month and there is a pattern forming. Injury and form give us a reason to change it up.

Yeah I know I'm being a bit irrational with this but after a performance like that on the weekend, the same s**t we've been dished up for a decade, I have very little patience for the measured approach. It's probably right but a part of me thinks the only way to get past the loser culture is for it to be called out publicly. They've tried everything else and nothing seems to work with this group. Make the senior players realise they have and are continuing to waste their careers. I just hope he's being a lot more blunt behind closed doors.

 

[MordySaint]

Mitchell has upgraded his Midfield as his no 1 prioity his engine room-all premierships are generally won in the midfield-I want us to focus on that- we will never win anything with our current Mids -slow and slow high kicks into the fwd 50-the Hawks young midfield was brilliant

Yes, its been pretty tragic. We have never taken our midfield seriously.

Under Richardson we thought the way forward was as many half bank flankers as possible.

Under Ratten we thought the way forward was as many older players and forwards as we could get our hands on.

Lets hope the 5 years under Lyon means a concentration on midfielders.

 

[Mangus]

The Good

• We are 7-4 which is substantially better than I expected
• Only 3 out of remaining 12 games are against teams currently in the 8 (2 x Bris and 1 x Melb)​
• The gameplan is visible and when the effort is there it works against even the best teams​
• The kids are better than I thought Owens NWM Caminitti Philipou​
• Owens deserves a special mention of his own he is arguably our most impactful player a game changer his contests set the tone for the rest​
• The SSP has delivered gold in Wood and Stocker​
• Our depth is good enough that Billings Membury and Windhager couldn't force their way into the team​
• King has come back flying and looks bigger stronger and more confident kicking for goal​
• Sinclair is elite - Wilkie is elite we are starting to find our own A graders​
• RTB just exudes calmness and control​
• We have been a relatively stable line up particularly in defence which is the base line for this team​

The Concerns

• The performances over the last month have not replicated the first 6 weeks
• We were outworked and outrun by Port Haw and Adelaide and only broke even with Nth and GWS so what was our strength is suddenly a weakness
• Related to the point above our midfield has progressively dropped away to now alarming levels getting spanked as comprehensively as we were by Hawthorns B grade midfield was really concerning. Got spanked by Port and Adelaide as well. Steele has his shoulder and knee which is obviously impacting him, Ross must have something wrong with him he is a shadow of himself and Crouch is doing his limited best but being overwhelmed. Now Clarke has hurt his knee we are running out of soldiers. These guys are our core and the team defense starts with them if they are getting beaten the rest of the system is constantly under pressure.
• Our team defense in the first six weeks was outstanding, teams either turned it over trying to move fast or resorted to slow long down the line. Since Port we have looked bog average, maybe teams have worked us out but more likely our effort has dropped and holes are opening up. On the weekend it looked like effort, we were constantly outnumbered in the contest, tackles not sticking or locking the ball in and the push back to support the defense was no where near what it was early in the year.
• The parallels to last season are a bit scary hit the season super fit then run out of gas before the bye. We need to rediscover our spark and energy soon or we will repeat last years death spiral
• The list of finals contenders lengthened considerably on the weekend with Freo Sydney Suns and Giants all keeping their seasons alive. I suspect many are already writing us off.

What I want to see

• A refreshed and energised team after the bye
• Windhager back in the team with a proper role not the sub/high half forward sometimes mid. Hopefully he is learning the lessons they are teaching him in the twos and is ready to have a real impact in the second half of the season
• Keeler to force his way in for a game or two by kicking bags at Sandy
• DMAC back fully fit, he should fit this gameplan perfectly and bring some of the desperate defense that has dropped off
• Make the finals and have a home final it has been a while since I have been to a Saints finals game

 

[gringo2011]

Yeah I know I'm being a bit irrational with this but after a performance like that on the weekend, the same s**t we've been dished up for a decade, I have very little patience for the measured approach. It's probably right but a part of me thinks the only way to get past the loser culture is for it to be called out publicly. They've tried everything else and nothing seems to work with this group. Make the senior players realise they have and are continuing to waste their careers. I just hope he's being a lot more blunt behind closed doors.

I think we are settling back into the range of sides where I think we belong. We aren't really a top 4 side and part of the issue is expectations for most of us after a fast start. I feel disappointed but realistically we are a side playing for a spot between 5th and 15th sort of range. If we can stay in the top of that range and play a final we have done well while bringing through some kids on a fast-track.

Freo and the Dogs are starting to fire up the order as we are falling back a bit while the top 4 seem like they should end up coming from Collingwood, Brisbane, Melbourne and someone from the group below. Port look good now but they seem a step off the top few sides.

To me we are around the level of Adelaide, Dogs, Freo, Essendon, Geelong, Carlton, GWS, Gold Coast range. We've knocked off a few in our range, lost one diabolical one to a lower side this week but overall we are still going well for the list we have available most weeks.

 

[The Punter]

We have alternative midfielders who are different in style, size and shape. We are just not playing them in the midfield for St Kilda at the moment.

Ross, Steele and Crouch are the same. Bytel to an extent also.

Phillipou, Owens, Gresham, Clark and Windhager are different, for better or worse.

 

[bird_man]

Relevant, irelevant just my observations.

1,Moving on our fitness guy 4 weeks ago has this had an effect on running out games.

2,Changing a winning side for change sake King comes in no probs ,but you can't praise players for doing their role & then drop them
Eg, Cordy who should be playing as a swing man Fwd/Bk when needed,bringing in Steele when not ready,bringing in Membrey when not ready it has unbalanced the side & sent a negative message to the group.

3,You can't have players being a sub & then drop them or not play them a full game in the seniors it does no good for confidence or morale.

4, Wood hasn't been the same since he hurt his shoulder, Hill can't pick & choose when or when not to tackle or pressure the opp.

5, Battle looked as though he needed a break, that's the idea of getting Cordy as a FA i would of thought.

6,We can't go forward with 1 genuin ruckman need at least 2nd capable one as Hawthorns 2 ruckman monstered Marshall & Caminti had no idea (not his fault) so that means for next year we must either push Heath at pre season or bring in an established player De Koning or McClean from the swans.

Just a few thoughts

I can't see how our fitness could have dropped off in the space of 4 weeks during the season.

 

[The Punter]

I can't see how our fitness could have dropped off in the space of 4 weeks during the season.

Without sounding like being a utensil-eyed optimist, it wouldn't entirely surprise me if we got to 4-0 and Lyon decided to spend the house's money and put a training block into them pre-bye and flog them now for benefits later.

Make no mistake: no one wins a premiership in May. No one.

Year	Top Team Round 11	Top Team End of H&A Season	Premier
2022	Melbourne	Geelong	Geelong
2021	Melbourne	Melbourne	Melbourne
2019	Geelong	Geelong	Richmond
2018	West Coast	Richmond	West Coast
2017	GWS	Adelaide	Richmond
2016	North Melbourne	Sydney	Western Bulldogs
2015	Fremantle	Fremantle	Hawthorn
2014	Port Adelaide	Sydney	Hawthorn
2013	Geelong	Hawthorn	Hawthorn
2012	Collingwood	Hawthorn	Sydney

 

[Klaatu]

I can't see how our fitness could have dropped off in the space of 4 weeks during the season.

Coincidence or maybe the playing group had enormous trust in him, all of a sudden he’s gone it takes years to build trust in someone’s program.

Our new high performance guy starts Thursday.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[George]

Without sounding like being a utensil-eyed optimist, it wouldn't entirely surprise me if we got to 4-0 and Lyon decided to spend the house's money and put a training block into them pre-bye and flog them now for benefits later.

Make no mistake: no one wins a premiership in May. No one.

Year	Top Team Round 11	Top Team End of H&A Season	Premier
2022	Melbourne	Geelong	Geelong
2021	Melbourne	Melbourne	Melbourne
2019	Geelong	Geelong	Richmond
2018	West Coast	Richmond	West Coast
2017	GWS	Adelaide	Richmond
2016	North Melbourne	Sydney	Western Bulldogs
2015	Fremantle	Fremantle	Hawthorn
2014	Port Adelaide	Sydney	Hawthorn
2013	Geelong	Hawthorn	Hawthorn
2012	Collingwood	Hawthorn	Sydney

Very good point. Geelong did this last year and ended up winning the flag, were unstoppable in the second half of the year after the increased loads. RTB raves about the Cats a lot so it wouldn't surprise me.

 

[puntking]

This is not the case you guys just trying to justify why we suck atm, it’s because we simply don’t have the players, if we don’t all turn up and give 100% effort we get found out

 

[moirae42]

Game plan off the bat required high effort and workrate.
That dropped off significantly and we get found out through lack of natural talent.

It sucks but unless we have 100% effort and a heap of that is between the ears, we wont win jack.

It would be really beneficial to get the younger guys, Owens, Pou and Windy, King... into a final.

 

[Saint Shags]

Not so sure some in this present group would be influenced

I'd at least want him to give it a shot.

There are a couple in the 22 that could do with a real wake up call. And if they dont wake up then the issues with the list are deeper than even the most pessimistic supporter would assume.

 

[hayes]

This is what’s most concerning:

“System can only take you so far”: “Tough love” needed for Saints to rediscover best form

“You found a really good way of winning games early, teams have worked that out pretty quick...”

sen.lu

“Without the footy they’re getting got. They’re bottom four in the comp over the last six weeks when they don’t have possession of the footy, that wasn’t the case at the start of the year,” he continued.

If that doesn’t point to a repeat of last year I don’t know what does.

 

[gringo2011]

This is what’s most concerning:

“System can only take you so far”: “Tough love” needed for Saints to rediscover best form

“You found a really good way of winning games early, teams have worked that out pretty quick...”

sen.lu

If that doesn’t point to a repeat of last year I don’t know what does.

Think the difference is that we have a softer back end of the season this year.

 

[Moral Decay]

When Ross was announced as the new Boss, Bassat came out saying that he club is ok with falling back down the ladder. Ross has maintained that this year was about figuring out the list.

Our start to the season has given us a look at what we can do with a decent system, problem is we don't have the players to make a system work, and/or the players we do have don't have the desire to compete or the willingness to commit to improving their game.

There's too much we don't know about what happens in match committee and list management meetings. Of the mids the only two that are safe in my opinion would be Crouch and Steele.

I have no idea whether this will be the right way to go, I do know what has happened since Ross was here and it's not pretty so "Alea jacta est" lets roll the dice and see what happens.