Thoughts on Australia as a nuclear power?

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The noises coming out of France to me suggests that they viewed the Australian purchase of French submarines as an extension of French foreign policy. Like they expected a say in when or where they were deployed. I was thinking it was more a commercial contract for the supply of submarines, after which Australia could do as they pleased with them.

Maybe we are better off being not aligned to French foreign policy. We do not have a mutual defence treaty with France, we do have such a treaty with the USA, since 1951.
I think they were pretty keen on getting Australia to help finance the design of a diesel-electric barracuda submarine that could be exported to other nations, as well as it being a matter of national pride given France has traditionally not had the success at exporting arms that it would like, which hurts the bottom line of indigenous design programs. Winning the Attack class program was a huge coup for France and the fact that it's blown up in their face looks equally bad.

Until this latest development, we had done a fairly admirable job of spreading the love around to different partners. The frigates went to the UK, the destroyers and the LHD went to Spain, the US had the JSF and L400 P2 went to Germany. The biggest contract of all of them was held by the French, now it looks like also heading to the US. To smooth things over I think the French will end up with something fairly big and something that's less risky. Might be the A400 as a replacement for the C130.
 
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what’s the Chinese heritage population of Australia compared to US heritage? Are we just denying the inevitable? And British born Aussies who still have higher loyalty to the UK (the ones who stuffed the republic vote) will all be dead before these subs get delivered

Their would be a lot of Chinese born/decent people here who detest the CCP. They'd fully understand the bullying, & the damage the CCP are trying to inflict. Indeed Asia in general would detest the CCP & its behaviours.

Australia is on the edge of Asia. Demographic change will see this place become more Asianised in decades to come. I'd suggest they'd like better relations with China, as I think most of us would right now. But they know how hard that is & will continue to be, with the CCP in charge.
 

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Festerz

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We do not have a mutual defence treaty with France, we do have such a treaty with the USA, since 1951.

It pays to to take a look at the wording of our alliance with the US more closely before quoting it as some sort of rock solid defence treaty. It is distinctly different from and less formalised than the commitments contained in the NATO treaty for example, is non binding on either party and does not commit the US to come to our aid in the event of an attack.

As ASPI pointed out recently:


The NATO treaty pledges the use of armed force ‘to restore and maintain … security’, stating that an armed attack against one party ‘shall be considered an attack against them all’. ANZUS says each party recognises that an armed attack on any member ‘would be dangerous to its own peace and security and declares that it would act to meet the common danger in accordance with its constitutional processes’.
 
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The noises coming out of France to me suggests that they viewed the Australian purchase of French submarines as an extension of French foreign policy. Like they expected a say in when or where they were deployed. I was thinking it was more a commercial contract for the supply of submarines, after which Australia could do as they pleased with them.

Maybe we are better off being not aligned to French foreign policy. We do not have a mutual defence treaty with France, we do have such a treaty with the USA, since 1951.

Spot on. The French can try & forget the Rainbow Warrior & the atomic testing, but they dont need an Indo Pacific policy because no one in the Pacific wants them here. Even the New Caledonians are voting to send France packing in December 2021.
The Europeans need to understand they do NOT rule the world.
 
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Their would be a lot of Chinese born/decent people here who detest the CCP. They'd fully understand the bullying, & the damage the CCP are trying to inflict. Indeed Asia in general would detest the CCP & its behaviours.

Australia is on the edge of Asia. Demographic change will see this place become more Asianised in decades to come. I'd suggest they'd like better relations with China, as I think most of us would right now. But they know how hard that is & will continue to be, with the CCP in charge.

Our future is with India.
 
It pays to to take a look at the wording of our alliance with the US more closely before quoting it as some sort of rock solid defence treaty. It is distinctly different from and less formalised than the commitments contained in the NATO treaty for example, is non binding on either party and does not commit the US to come to our aid in the event of an attack.

As ASPI pointed out recently:


The NATO treaty pledges the use of armed force ‘to restore and maintain … security’, stating that an armed attack against one party ‘shall be considered an attack against them all’. ANZUS says each party recognises that an armed attack on any member ‘would be dangerous to its own peace and security and declares that it would act to meet the common danger in accordance with its constitutional processes’.
The wording in these treaties is virtually meaningless though, as there is no court of law that has the power to compel the United States to come to the aid of any nation irrespective of what prior agreements were made. What will demand the involvement of the US in any Asia-Pacific conflict is 80 years of pax americana; the support of the existence and growth of liberal democratic governments around the world. If a liberal democratic state with a self-elected government is allowed to fall to an authoritarian state, the concept of pax americana becomes as meaningless as a written defence treaty. When the ability of the US to defend a state comes into question, American influence starts to decline. When American influence starts to decline, the myriad of global institutions they have built to propagate American economic growth start to falter. When they disappear, America suddenly isn't so great anymore.

The only question Australians need ask is how many American lives is a satisfactory price for maintaining global hegemony.
 

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Their would be a lot of Chinese born/decent people here who detest the CCP. They'd fully understand the bullying, & the damage the CCP are trying to inflict. Indeed Asia in general would detest the CCP & its behaviours.

Australia is on the edge of Asia. Demographic change will see this place become more Asianised in decades to come. I'd suggest they'd like better relations with China, as I think most of us would right now. But they know how hard that is & will continue to be, with the CCP in charge.

You overestimate how much the Chinese care about overthrowing the “CCP” (actually the CPC). The satisfaction for the current Chinese government is higher than most western governments, and especially the US. After the massive wealth growth over the last few decades, huge middle class increase, big infrastructure building and a better handled pandemic than most of the west violent revolt of the “CCP” is the last thing on most Chinese minds.

What will they replace it with, an American style democracy where one half of the country hates the other, prefers to inject horse dewormer to a vaccine, can’t provide healthcare to all, infrastructure crumbing, reality TV show hosts being elected President? I would say the chances of a violent internal conflict between two factions in America is more likely in the near future than in China.

Most Chinese-Australians (and I’ll add in the culturally Chinese migrants from places like Malaysia or Singapore) don’t care for being either an anti Australia fifth column or an anti China Bay of Pigs style exile fighting force. They just worry about what everyone else here worries about, jobs, education, health, their family, hobbies, interests, going out on weekends, whatever.

Unfortunately something like 1 out of 5 Asian-Australians have been on the receiving end of racist abuse or discrimination since the pandemic and the Orange turd’s insistence on calling it the “China Virus”. Most Asian Australians would know someone on the receiving end. You think they’ll be lining up to enlist to man those nuclear subs?

The current Chinese government ain’t going anywhere, the growing Asian population of Australia ain’t stopping.
 
Their would be a lot of Chinese born/decent people here who detest the CCP. They'd fully understand the bullying, & the damage the CCP are trying to inflict. Indeed Asia in general would detest the CCP & its behaviours.

Australia is on the edge of Asia. Demographic change will see this place become more Asianised in decades to come. I'd suggest they'd like better relations with China, as I think most of us would right now. But they know how hard that is & will continue to be, with the CCP in charge.

In my experience this isn't the case.

Remember most Chinese migrants are middle and upper class as they have had to buy their migration here (either by paying for uni or buying a business)

My Chinese mates fair dinkum abuse the s**t out of me demanding I explain why we are in the us alliance against china, they genuinely don't get it

For them they don't love the ccp, but they don't hate it either (remember the party has over 95 million members - that's over 5% of the population)
 
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You overestimate how much the Chinese care about overthrowing the “CCP” (actually the CPC). The satisfaction for the current Chinese government is higher than most western governments, and especially the US. After the massive wealth growth over the last few decades, huge middle class increase, big infrastructure building and a better handled pandemic than most of the west violent revolt of the “CCP” is the last thing on most Chinese minds.

What will they replace it with, an American style democracy where one half of the country hates the other, prefers to inject horse dewormer to a vaccine, can’t provide healthcare to all, infrastructure crumbing, reality TV show hosts being elected President? I would say the chances of a violent internal conflict between two factions in America is more likely in the near future than in China.

Most Chinese-Australians (and I’ll add in the culturally Chinese migrants from places like Malaysia or Singapore) don’t care for being either an anti Australia fifth column or an anti China Bay of Pigs style exile fighting force. They just worry about what everyone else here worries about, jobs, education, health, their family, hobbies, interests, going out on weekends, whatever.

Unfortunately something like 1 out of 5 Asian-Australians have been on the receiving end of racist abuse or discrimination since the pandemic and the Orange turd’s insistence on calling it the “China Virus”. Most Asian Australians would know someone on the receiving end. You think they’ll be lining up to enlist to man those nuclear subs?

The current Chinese government ain’t going anywhere, the growing Asian population of Australia ain’t stopping.

How did you extrapolate my post to say I overestimate how much the Chinese care about overthrowing the CCP?

What CCP data do you have which shows how popular the CCP is? I mean who in CHINA is going to say they hate the CCP FFS????

5th Column? WTF?

'The current Chinese Government ain't going anywhere'!! Of course not. Its a totalitarian dictatorship!!

Why are you writing this crap?????
 
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You overestimate how much the Chinese care about overthrowing the “CCP” (actually the CPC). The satisfaction for the current Chinese government is higher than most western governments, and especially the US. After the massive wealth growth over the last few decades, huge middle class increase, big infrastructure building and a better handled pandemic than most of the west violent revolt of the “CCP” is the last thing on most Chinese minds.

What will they replace it with, an American style democracy where one half of the country hates the other, prefers to inject horse dewormer to a vaccine, can’t provide healthcare to all, infrastructure crumbing, reality TV show hosts being elected President? I would say the chances of a violent internal conflict between two factions in America is more likely in the near future than in China.

Most Chinese-Australians (and I’ll add in the culturally Chinese migrants from places like Malaysia or Singapore) don’t care for being either an anti Australia fifth column or an anti China Bay of Pigs style exile fighting force. They just worry about what everyone else here worries about, jobs, education, health, their family, hobbies, interests, going out on weekends, whatever.

Unfortunately something like 1 out of 5 Asian-Australians have been on the receiving end of racist abuse or discrimination since the pandemic and the Orange turd’s insistence on calling it the “China Virus”. Most Asian Australians would know someone on the receiving end. You think they’ll be lining up to enlist to man those nuclear subs?

The current Chinese government ain’t going anywhere, the growing Asian population of Australia ain’t stopping.

The Chins virus comment has context & nothing to do with nuclear power for Australia going forward.
 
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How did you extrapolate my post to say I overestimate how much the Chinese care about overthrowing the CCP?

What CCP data do you have which shows how popular the CCP is? I mean who in CHINA is going to say they hate the CCP FFS????

5th Column? WTF?

'The current Chinese Government ain't going anywhere'!! Of course not. Its a totalitarian dictatorship!!

Why are you writing this crap?????

A chance to waffle at your expense. Relevance not a problem for the OP.
 

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The noises coming out of France to me suggests that they viewed the Australian purchase of French submarines as an extension of French foreign policy. Like they expected a say in when or where they were deployed. I was thinking it was more a commercial contract for the supply of submarines, after which Australia could do as they pleased with them.

Maybe we are better off being not aligned to French foreign policy. We do not have a mutual defence treaty with France, we do have such a treaty with the USA, since 1951.

It’s a good pick up abs the lefties on here have been trying to make the case that the French have significant forces in the pacific which we should be trying to appease. But the reality is Macron now with this significant loss of prestige and projection - AUKUS doesn’t trust you sufficiently - may well lose the next election. We’ll see but dummy spits are not the act of and adult leader who should appreciate something of our relationships over the last hundred years with AUZkUS members. To get a feel of how AUKUS members perceive the French fidelity in the face of foreign pressure you only have to see Macrons threats of leaving NATO, or the Bay of Oran, or the active deportation of French citizens who happened to be Jews during WW2 to certain death or setting off nuclear bombs in the South Pacific 25 years an area they now say is very very important.


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It’s a good pick up abs the lefties on here have been trying to make the case that the French have significant forces in the pacific which we should be trying to appease. But the reality is Macron now with this significant loss of prestige and projection - AUKUS doesn’t trust you sufficiently - may well lose the next election. We’ll see but dummy spits are not the act of and adult leader who should appreciate something of our relationships over the last hundred years with AUZkUS members. To get a feel of how AUKUS members perceive the French fidelity in the face of foreign pressure you only have to see Macrons threats of leaving NATO, or the Bay of Oran, or the active deportation of French citizens who happened to be Jews during WW2 to certain death or setting off nuclear bombs in the South Pacific 25 years an area they now say is very very important.


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Since when is our interaction with the French been a 'right' versus 'left' political issue.?

Who has suggested we should appease French pacific interests.?

One may argue that Scumo could have handled the situation with the French better in a diplomatic sense. However, given the issues that have arisen between Australia & the CCP over the last 18 months, I detect a majority who see this strategic move as being in our best interests.

Also, that this decision really been forced on us due to the belligerent actions of the CCP.
 

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In my experience this isn't the case.

Remember most Chinese migrants are middle and upper class as they have had to buy their migration here (either by paying for uni or buying a business)

My Chinese mates fair dinkum abuse the sh*t out of me demanding I explain why we are in the us alliance against china, they genuinely don't get it

For them they don't love the ccp, but they don't hate it either (remember the party has over 95 million members - that's over 5% of the population)

You need some Hong Kongers for mates if you think that.


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Nickoo

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Since when is our interaction with the French been a 'right' versus 'left' political issue.?

Who has suggested we should appease French pacific interests.?

One may argue that Scumo could have handled the situation with the French better in a diplomatic sense. However, given the issues that have arisen between Australia & the CCP over the last 18 months, I detect a majority who see this strategic move as being in our best interests.

Also, that this decision really been forced on us due to the belligerent actions of the CCP.

Kevin Rudd writing in Le Monde, and Paul Keating writing that he agrees wit Malaysia, which is hilarious. Theo Thephanoys, Jon Faine and many other leftie luminaries popping up to indicate that we should be with the French in the indo Pacific and alignment on numerous other issues such as Az denigration France’s mandatory vaccination, to name but a few.


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You need some Hong Kongers for mates if you think that.


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Ive spent two decades dealing with HKers (plan was for work to relocate me at one point). 95% of them are so beyond politically apathetic it isnt funny

Of all I have on facebook/wechat, only one is overtly political
 
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Kevin Rudd writing in Le Monde, and Paul Keating writing that he agrees wit Malaysia, which is hilarious. Theo Thephanoys, Jon Faine and many other leftie luminaries popping up to indicate that we should be with the French in the indo Pacific and alignment on numerous other issues such as Az denigration France’s mandatory vaccination, to name but a few.


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The current ALP leadership sees it differently.

Keating is a bit of a cultural Francophile, whilst Rudd is a bit predisposed to China. I wonder if they're more worried about the foreign policy implications of this, shifting further towards the USA, deal?
 

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Kevin Rudd writing in Le Monde, and Paul Keating writing that he agrees wit Malaysia, which is hilarious. Theo Thephanoys, Jon Faine and many other leftie luminaries popping up to indicate that we should be with the French in the indo Pacific and alignment on numerous other issues such as Az denigration France’s mandatory vaccination, to name but a few.


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Keating a leftie? LOL
 

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