Thoughts on Australia as a nuclear power?

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Festerz

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At some point before the election both sides should be required to let us all know the cost of any Glasgow aspirational target. Turn the hot air into jobs and dollars. What they are promising for the generations coming through.
And yet, on a matter relevant to this thread, you seem to be perfectly happy for our current Federal Government to make an unexpected commitment to a new defence pact with foreign powers, including nuclear powered phantom subs which will not touch the water until at least the 2040s with zero costing, zero timeframe or zero public tender process or discussion?

What a pity your concern for the financial burdens to be faced by future generations is purely driven by partisan politics. Given your interest in 'hot air' I can see why you rely on the Murdoch press for your information.
 

madmug

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At some point before the election both sides should be required to let us all know the cost of any Glasgow aspirational target. Turn the hot air into jobs and dollars. What they are promising for the generations coming through.
Fine, as long as we get the real costs of doing the SFA we're doing now.

Also the benefits of moving away from coal & into new renewable energy based industries.

All we seem to get are the negatives via the far RW LNP types as well as the non stop Murdoch media attack on anything else except ignoring the science of the issue.
 

Kwality

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Fine, as long as we get the real costs of doing the SFA we're doing now.

Also the benefits of moving away from coal & into new renewable energy based industries.

All we seem to get are the negatives via the far RW LNP types as well as the non stop Murdoch media attack on anything else except ignoring the science of the issue.
My problem is the way emissions are measured, e.g we mine coal, the coal is burnt powering steel mills that other countries buy. Surely its the end user, the one getting the finished product who should wear the cost in terms of emissions.
If there was no market for coal, it'd be left in the ground.

If renewables are cheaper, no one would have built coal powered generation for as long as that argument has being run & thats years.

Its all well & good to want to ignore both sides of the discussion, so I agree with costing SFA, the jobs, the economy & the environment.
 

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Festerz

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Surely its the end user, the one getting the finished product who should wear the cost in terms of emissions.
This is the nonsense excuse used by a few National Party numbnuts as an excuse to do nothing.

Yes - the emissions ARE counted in the country in which the coal is burned. When countries report their national emissions to the United Nations, only fossil fuels burned domestically are counted. But the impacts of the CO2 from coal mined in Australia on the global climate are the same, whether they are burned in Australia or overseas.

Saying we are not responsible for what happens to the CO2 we export is the same argument used by an arms exporter saying they are not responsible for the deaths their weapons cause in overseas conflicts.

And given the huge cost to Australia's future generations if we do nothing about climate change (estimated by the Climate Council to be a cost approaching $100 Billion a year within 2 decades) only an idiot would ignore the impact our coal exports are having on global warning.
 

Nickoo

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ICAC? Isn't Scumo in charge of organising that?

Hahahahahaha!!!
I AC is a seriously awful organisation. IBAC is allot better but never got to the bottom of the 25milion security guard fraud. So far I might add. But don’t hold your breath in a state like Victoria which is completely captured.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

Mateyman

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At some point before the election both sides should be required to let us all know the cost of any Glasgow aspirational target. Turn the hot air into jobs and dollars. What they are promising for the generations coming through.
Should we also know the exact cost of the nuclear submarines which have been promised and will probably never arrive?
 

Mateyman

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My problem is the way emissions are measured, e.g we mine coal, the coal is burnt powering steel mills that other countries buy. Surely its the end user, the one getting the finished product who should wear the cost in terms of emissions.
If there was no market for coal, it'd be left in the ground.

If renewables are cheaper, no one would have built coal powered generation for as long as that argument has being run & thats years.

Its all well & good to want to ignore both sides of the discussion, so I agree with costing SFA, the jobs, the economy & the environment.

Our consumption based emissions are at a similar level to the production based figures. Miles higher than almost every other country in the world...
 

madmug

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My problem is the way emissions are measured, e.g we mine coal, the coal is burnt powering steel mills that other countries buy. Surely its the end user, the one getting the finished product who should wear the cost in terms of emissions.
If there was no market for coal, it'd be left in the ground.

If renewables are cheaper, no one would have built coal powered generation for as long as that argument has being run & thats years.

Its all well & good to want to ignore both sides of the discussion, so I agree with costing SFA, the jobs, the economy & the environment.
One little point is the fact coal has never had its real costs added to the Equation.

That's the little inconvenient fact the coaly coaitioners always seem to forget.

Or if scientific experts bring it up, they are attacked personally.

Shooting the messenger seems to be a right wing thing these days.
 

QuietB

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At some point before the election both sides should be required to let us all know the cost of any Glasgow aspirational target. Turn the hot air into jobs and dollars. What they are promising for the generations coming through.
Why? Morrison does not have to do that with submarines. Or “on water matters”. Or off shore detention. Or JobKeeper. Or many thousands of government contracts to the private sector.

Why starting getting all transparent with climate change 🤷‍♂️
 

Kwality

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One little point is the fact coal has never had its real costs added to the Equation.

That's the little inconvenient fact the coaly coaitioners always seem to forget.

Or if scientific experts bring it up, they are attacked personally.

Shooting the messenger seems to be a right wing thing these days.
Well do tell .... surely its transparent.
 

Kwality

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Why? Morrison does not have to do that with submarines. Or “on water matters”. Or off shore detention. Or JobKeeper. Or many thousands of government contracts to the private sector.

Why starting getting all transparent with climate change 🤷‍♂️
You seriously underestimate the voter.
 

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Kwality

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Should we also know the exact cost of the nuclear submarines which have been promised and will probably never arrive?
We do know what the original budget was to be. Defence has always been problematic, its not like buying something off the shelf. The builders dont give a fixed cost.
 

Kwality

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I think your god bothering fat idiot is seriously underestimating the doctors wives.

Idiots + the faithful is enough to win an election.

Idiots only is not.
The faithful dont win elections these days, with the majors primary votes less than 35%.You need support around the country. The nutters in the wings do more harm than good.
 

Ned_Flanders

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We do know what the original budget was to be. Defence has always been problematic, its not like buying something off the shelf. The builders dont give a fixed cost.
It's started at around $36b over a decade ago, and has steadily risen.

Combo of the tech costs rising, and Australia's need for local production (the price would have been MUCH cheaper if we agreed to let France/Germany/Japan build in their facilities)

Apparently ASC is a bit of a joke. At one point they were struggling to have two boats in the water at any one time, and that's now improved to 2-3 (closer to 2)

One of the issues the French found is they couldn't make what was needed (and this is ignoring propulsion issues). USA media also reporting it will take 20-30 years to get ASC skilled up enough to build these boats themselves.

Reports here and in the USA are that scomo is preparing to fu** ASC and Adelaide, and agree to OS build (most likely UK because the USA factories are fully booked with USA orders until 2040, and the UK is about to finish their run of Astutes)
 

Kwality

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It's started at around $36b over a decade ago, and has steadily risen.

Combo of the tech costs rising, and Australia's need for local production (the price would have been MUCH cheaper if we agreed to let France/Germany/Japan build in their facilities)

Apparently ASC is a bit of a joke. At one point they were struggling to have two boats in the water at any one time, and that's now improved to 2-3 (closer to 2)

One of the issues the French found is they couldn't make what was needed (and this is ignoring propulsion issues). USA media also reporting it will take 20-30 years to get ASC skilled up enough to build these boats themselves.

Reports here and in the USA are that scomo is preparing to fu** ASC and Adelaide, and agree to OS build (most likely UK because the USA factories are fully booked with USA orders until 2040, and the UK is about to finish their run of Astutes)
This guy got it in one in 2014 :
Defence Minister says he 'wouldn't trust' Australian Submarine Corporation to build a canoe
Defence Minister David Johnston has warned he would not trust the Government-owned defence builder, the Australian Submarine Corporation (ASC), to build a canoe.

Senator Johnston launched the scathing attack on the ASC in the Senate during a debate about where Australia's next submarine fleet should be built.

The Government is under pressure to build Australia's next fleet of submarines locally, rather than opt for an overseas design.
 

Nuggs Bunny

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We needed to give up on making submarines in Australia after the Collins class. It's unrealistic to expect a domestic submarine industry to survive on a class of a dozen or less boats built every 5 decades. There's also no need other than pride to manufacture a submarine in Australia.

If it's about jobs, there are many other defence materials that we can and should be manufacturing on-shore that have more strategic value. There's also countless other opportunities to manufacture and design vehicles and complex machinery on shore.
 

Mateyman

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We do know what the original budget was to be. Defence has always been problematic, its not like buying something off the shelf. The builders dont give a fixed cost.
Yeah it was already running 40 billion dollars over budget...
So Defence doesn't need to give us accurate estimates because the builders won't tell us, but we're meant to give a precise costing of all climate change policies, many of which rely on technologies which are rapidly becoming cheaper (e.g. solar)?
 
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Baltimore Jack

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According to Speers on Insiders its Labor's fault that the Subs will not have any Aus built content because Labor didn't insist on it

True Story
 

Festerz

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(most likely UK because the USA factories are fully booked with USA orders until 2040, and the UK is about to finish their run of Astutes)
Wherever you are getting your information is the joke. Because this is not just dead wrong but uninformed speculation that lacks any logic or alignment with known facts.

By the time this yet to be established working group that Morrison says will take at least 18 months to come up with an agreed design to suit Australia's needs, the UK will have no submarine construction capacity available as it will be in the early stages of preparation for the Dreadnought class of ballistic subs and designing Astute replacements.

It is well known that Britain's submarine construction capacity faces budget and skills gaps at time of international uncertainty, plus supply threats due to Brexit and there is the huge and rapidly growing issue of its inability to come up with a solution to safely scrapping its old nuclear submarines. And the big elephant in the room is the fact that Britain has retired twenty nuclear submarines since 1980. None have been disposed of, and nine still contain radioactive fuel in their reactors, according to an audit by Britain’s National Audit Office. These subs spent an average of twenty-six years on active service—and nineteen years out of service.

“Because of this, the Department [Ministry of Defence] now stores twice as many submarines as it operates, with seven of them having been in storage for longer than they were in service,” the Audit states.

In my mind it is a disgrace that the local Aussie press, in its rush to applaud our decision to go nuclear sometime in the latter half of this century, has ignored this issue. Has it not occurred to them that maybe the British government might actually see the continent of Australia as a solution for its growing nuclear sub dismantling nightmare? And the dumping of spent nuclear fuel rods somewhere in our vast continent might be a part of the deal - something that would happen long before Australia's boats ever hit the water?

And the issues facing the US submarine fleet are just as troublesome. For example, in my last visit to Hawaii in 2018 there were two Virginia class submarines in Pearl Harbor for lengthy stays to address a major issue affecting the whole fleet and recognised since 2010 - their acoustic tiles falling off during service destroying their stealth capabilities.

The simple fact is that Australia has only made an announcement to scrap the only submarine build contract it has and is many years from getting agreement (let alone the money) on what should be its replacement. We have a head of government agreement to access the power plant technology from the US/UK - that is all. An announcement made to fend off a growing crisis of appalling contract management of the LNPs own making only months before a Federal election on the back of the US need to get international support for its China strategy.

How, when, in what and at what cost that technology will be used for a boat suited for Australia's long term needs towards the end of this century has not even started to be thought of. And the discussion around the possible lease of US or UK subs to bridge the 20+ gap in our own maritime defence needs is even more problematic.

(Edited for completeness)
 
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Ned_Flanders

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Wherever you are getting your information is the joke. Because this is not just dead wrong but uninformed speculation that lacks any logic or alignment with known facts.

By the time this yet to be established working group that Morrison says will take at least 18 months to come up with an agreed design to suit Australia's needs, the UK will have no submarine construction capacity available as it will be in the early stages of preparation for the Dreadnought class of ballistic subs and designing Astute replacements.

The simple fact is that Australia has only made announcement to scrap the only submarine build contract it has and is many years from getting agreement (let alone the money) on what should be its replacement. We have a head of government agreement to access the power plant technology from the US/UK - that is all. An announcement made to fend off a growing crisis of appalling contract management of the LNPs own making only months before a Federal election on the back of the US need to get international support for its China strategy.

How, when, in what and at what cost that technology will be used for a boat suited for Australia's long term needs towards the end of this century has not even started to be thought of.
Us defence news sites and forums (so don't doubt they may have blindspots outside their own world). Aren't the dreadnoughts already being built alongside the astute however?

The loan arrangement is one of the uglier discussions on defence forums. The solution apparently to our problem and the USA lack of submariners is to simply have Australian sailors put into USA boats to work alongside the yanks, with this to continue for a decade plus while ASC go to school

I'm still surprised we have agreed to all of this with no price, no timeline, and no details to what we are getting
 

Kwality

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According to Speers on Insiders its Labor's fault that the Subs will not have any Aus built content because Labor didn't insist on it

True Story
Was he challenging the regulars on the show, not wanting it to go the way of Q & A & groupthink ?
How was it received?
True story pls.
 

Festerz

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This guy got it in one in 2014 :

Defence Minister David Johnston has warned he would not trust the Government-owned defence builder, the Australian Submarine Corporation (ASC), to build a canoe.
Sure he did. Unless of course you understand something about context.

This was a WA MP hell bent on getting submarine (and other defence work such as the AWD) construction and maintenance work shifted to his home state of WA. And head of a portfolio which was responsible for designing the submarine tender, awarding the contract to the French and overseeing the subsequent titanic blow out in costs.

This is also the same former Defence Minister who went on to become Australia's 'Defence Export Advocate' promoting Australia's defence design and construction capabilities to the rest of the world and had a key role in the early stages of the French submarine contract.

Cutting and pasting a headline from 7 years ago without doing something about what happened since will nearly always lead to simplistic conclusions.
 

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