Three Talls: Can it work?

[Zahki]

So now Dawes has strengthened his claim on his senior spot, and Anthony looks to be regaining his form it's time to address the red hot question: Can three talls work in our forward line?

For me, I'd like to see the club give it a shot for a number of reasons. First and foremost is that Anthony is far too good a player to be languishing in the VFL. He kicked 50 goals last year, and although he got monstered in the finals the club shouldn't back off continuing his development. Lets face it, he's a straight shooter and we need as many of them as we can get at the moment. If he doesn't get the best defender he'll perform much better. If he does then it will surely create a mismatch on Dawes or Cloke that can be exploited, win win.

Dawes too has come out and shown he's ready to take his game to the next level. He has nothing left to learn from playing in the 2s, and has huge potential. Surely the only sane thing to do is to keep him in the side and let him continue to find his feet and adjust to life in the seniors.

Then there is Cloke. I still think he's at his best when he plays like he did on ANZAC day, staying in the 50 and getting scoring opportunities. But as long as the coaches think it's a good idea to have him wheeling around and bombing it into the 50 from the wing why not have Dawes and Anthony in there.

On the flip side playing 2 rucks makes it too tall when one rests up there. Second who comes out for Anthony? This is a side that has got 2 9+ goal wins in 2 weeks, they're obviously working very well together, it's tough to rock the boat the way the side is going.

Either way it's a very good problem to have.

 

[Vixen]

I don't know ...

The good thing about Collingwood right now is our smaller forwards can run into the midfielder and make their opponents accountable. Jack never seemed to do this alot. He'd have to kick Medhurst out of the side to get back in, you would think. Alot like Tarks would need to kick Macaffer out of the side to get back in.

But yeah, to me Jack needs to take either Medhurst or Dawes's spot to get back into the side. Can't take anybody else out for him, really. Medhurst right now seems to be our only specialist small forward so I can't see him getting dropped because Thomas, Didak and Davis generally go through the midfield. He might get a gig if Leon goes out through injury but even then he might not be the right replacement.

 

[Quicky]

I think it's working right now if you want to look at it that way. Medhurst plays more as a third tall than he does a crumbing forward pocket.

Whether Jack can fill this role?? I'm very sceptical for a few reasons.

1) With Cloke, Dawes and Anthony up forward our pressure in the forward line would be hurt. I'm not suggesting these guys don't put in (although they could improve) but that our smaller forwards are much better at applying that pressure. They are quicker and more mobile than our talls.

2) Anthony has had a bad habit of playing in other forwards space at times. This is a bad trait for a third tall who needs to be smart about when to lead from the ball, and be less selfish. I can see him playing like a FF and clogging up the F50 as a result.

3) Will Anthony do a better job than Medhurst?? I can't see all of Dawes or Cloke, Anthony and Medhurst playing deep forward. It's just too cluttered and I think would work to the detriment of all. That means if Anthony was played as a third tall Medhurst would likely have to be shifted to the half forward flank. This could well work but I think the current structure looks better.

Currently i'm happy with our forward structure as it stands. If that means Anthony needs to continue playing VFL to gain further form and fitness I think that is fine. I'm still curious how the new look forward line will hold up against better quality opposition and defences. I like what I have seen of Dawes but I don't think he is as entrenched in the 22 as some believe. If he continues his good form it really is going to create a selection doozy.

 

[Zahki]

I wouldn't mind Medhurst playing a bit up ground to be honest. His kicking is deadly, almost as good as Didaks, having that kind of delivery into the 50 would be a huge asset.

 

[Quicky]

I wouldn't mind Medhurst playing a bit up ground to be honest. His kicking is deadly, almost as good as Didaks, having that kind of delivery into the 50 would be a huge asset.

He can pull off some incredible passes but i'd argue whether he does it consistently enough. He certainly isn't afraid to go for the high risk pass. My concern is that he also turns the ball over a lot with his forward entries from what I have seen. This is what distinguishes his F50 entries from Didaks IMO, Medhurst turns it over more. I like him better closer to goal with Didak and Davis on the flanks. I think this is his best position and where he is the most dangerous as a goal scoring threat.

 

[shawthing09]

Medhursts field kicking is unreliable, as Quicky has mentioned above he pulls off some very good high risk pin point passes but the success rate isn't high enough and his regulation field kicking is not to a high standard.

Quicky summed it up pretty well, Medhurst plays more like a third tall then a small foward. In the current structure Medhurst is playing the role Anthony would be in line for. Pushing Medhurst up the ground to play Anthony deeper would be a must if we where to try the 3 tall line up but the fact is both Cloke and Dawes go up high to get the ball as well. There are just too many marking players for all to be needed or effective.

Recent history suggests that 3 tall marking targets don't work and rather then freeing up the fowards to make them more dangerous, it really just robs them of supply, space and momentum. Someone like Medhurst is the perfect "3rd tall" quick enough to apply great fantastic pressure, fit enough to clear out up the ground to clear space when needed and good enough a target to be used inside 50 and due to his speed and the fact that he plays taller then he is he can be a tough match up and will often get a guy like Fisher or Harley who would have otherwise been used to zone across and kill the ball into the big guys or create offence.

 

[coldpieswarmbeer]

we've done it before with cloke rocca and anthony

and also cloke rocca and rusling

 

[rickyp]

I can see it happening, but only if we push cloke further away from the goal, so he isn't in a goal kicking position. I think it'd be better if we played with 1 ruckman too, and kept the small forwards

 

[DWil6]

Same problem is being discussed in Geelong forum with Podsiadly, Mooney and Hawkins. They seem to think it only worked thus far against the lowly Tigers. An interesting discussion.

 

[Old Spice]

Need two rucks V North, so Wood definitely in. I expect the duties might be more like 60/40 for Jolly rather than 70/30. In any case, both Wood and Jolly can spend a fair amount of time forward. If we end up with Wood / Jolly, Cloke and Dawes in the fwd line, then Anthony might be one to many.

Mind you, Cloke's defensive pressure is very good in my view, so he isn't a lumbering liability. If Dawes led up the wing more, and Cloke stayed closer to goal, we wouldn't lose any defensive pressure in the fwd line. But if Trav is having a dog day and he pushes up, then Dawes in the fwd 50 = less fwd pressure.

I wouldn't be opposed to seeing Anthony step in for Rambo - more based on experiment than Brown's form which is okay - perhaps swinging down to the forward line in bursts to create mismatches.

It comes down to how strong we are aerially. Cloke has sure hands, as does Jolly, but not so sure about Dawes or Jack's ability to win it in the air. Haven't watched North all year, so don't know how many spring-heels North possess in their defence and whether they would carve up a fwd line that couldn't hold onto the ball.

I'm not opposed to a 3 tall fwd line, but seems a bit fraught.

 

[Jonno_]

Anthony was dropped because at the moment he is a one trick pony. In modern football, you aren't going to cut it if you are a one trick pony, unless that trick is unbelievably good, like Jonathan Brown.

Anthony needs to add more strings to his, he needs to present more, he needs to tackle and put more defensive pressure on, and he needs to be able to crumb a little better.

At the moment, he is an extremely limited player, and while I agree that third tall is his perfect roll and he would do a lot better in it, he needs to round his game before he is worthy of senior selection IMO.

 

[sr36]

It worked round 1 against the dogs when you had Anthony, Cloke and Brown all in the same forward line. It's success is even more surprising when you consider how out of form anthony and Cloke were. In fact I think that MM definitely likes a 3 tall forward structure, this has been seen at finals time recently when he's brought in an unfit Rocca and Rusling on the back of little game time or form to be the third tall forward. I suspect that we will see these 3 together in the very near future, probably as early as this week. The question is will we also see two ruckman. Personally I think if we go for three tall forwards, it should be at the expense of a second ruckman, meaning that Cloke and Dawes have to provide Jolly with support, rather than at the expense of our midfield rotation.

 

[iGNITER]

Yeah I think it can work. Worth a try anyway.
I think we could setup something like this and it would work.

HF - Didak Cloke Davis
F - Anthony Dawes Medhurst

 

[Chartreuse]

Having three tall forwards in the team doesn't necessarily mean they will be on the park at the same time! Two on, 1 interchange and at certain stages all three on! Keeps legs fresher so leading stronger all day.

Having said that, I don't think I actually like the idea at the moment with the quality of our small fwds in terms of fwd line pressure (other than Davis at the moment). Plus we are kicking winning scorelines, so why try to fix something that ain't broken.

Not sure its going to work for Geelong either...mainly because Hawkins in my view isn't that good. I reckon at the moment they are playing Hawkins off against I-Pod and who performs better at AFL intensity will keep the gig going forward. Great to see a 28 yo getting his first crack at snr footy showing the youngsters how its done!

 

[The Royal Sampler]

I think we should try it this week. Dawes came in for Leigh Brown according to Mark Neeld anyway. In all likelihood Josh doesn't play, so...

Wood divides time with Jolly but the two of them spend little time up forward.
Anthony plays third tall.

The main downside is that I don't think Wood is a particularly good 2nd ruck. I think he's a good 1st ruck and a good VFL 1st ruck.

 

[HFF]

I just want Jack back in the side asap.

 

[Palmer Stoat]

Tough call this one. One the one hand, at his best Medders is a key forward. Despite his stature, he plays as a lead and mark forward, and even when conceding a bit of size is comfortable standing under a high ball. Then there's the fact that a Dawes-Cloke-JA forward line functioned well against the Crows in the home-and-away match last year. On the other hand, in modern football if in doubt always play an extra runner.

It should also be pointed out that against Adelaide last year, although we played three tall forwards, we didn't play a second specialist ruckman. Dawes pinch-hit in the ruck that night. So my suspicion is that if you go with the three tall forwards you'd have to compensate with one specialist ruck and some part time rucking from Trav and Dawes. I don't mind that structure, to be honest. I'd prefer it to three tall forwards and two rucks, cos I think you lose too much run with that many talls.

What I'd quite like to see is JA played as a CHB. That's what he was groomed as in the VFL, and he showed a lot of potential in that role IMO. As long as Dawes is getting the job done in the forward line, let him Medders and Cloke provide the marking targets, rotate Wood and Jolly through the ruck (both spending a little time in the forward line occasionally) and play Presti and JA down back -- provided JA can displace Nate, of course.

I think that is a versatile structure that gives us the size and height we need at either end and in the centre square without compromising our running copacity.

 

[jackcass]

I think we should try it this week. Dawes came in for Leigh Brown according to Mark Neeld anyway. In all likelihood Josh doesn't play, so...

Wood divides time with Jolly but the two of them spend little time up forward.
Anthony plays third tall.

The main downside is that I don't think Wood is a particularly good 2nd ruck. I think he's a good 1st ruck and a good VFL 1st ruck.

I don't see the destinction, nothing actually changes except maybe who gets to start each quarter on the ground. Other than that you're a ruckman playing against another ruckman. If anything, being "2nd" ruckman should help Wood as he'll be apposed to the opposions "2nd" ruckman.

 

[Frankie23]

Our structure is based around pressure, and inparticular forward pressure. I can't see 3 tall forwards fitting into our structure, it will be too easy for teams to run it out of our defence.

Unless Dawes pinch hits in the ruck (which I don't think will happen), instead of Josh, then we should only have 2 forwards and a resting ruckmen.

At the moment it is Trav and Dawesy. Unfortunately for Jack, he was omitted at a bad time.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

I don't see the destinction, nothing actually changes except maybe who gets to start each quarter on the ground. Other than that you're a ruckman playing against another ruckman. If anything, being "2nd" ruckman should help Wood as he'll be apposed to the opposions "2nd" ruckman.

Just gametime, mate. Wood seems to need gametime to work himself into a game. He's not an "immediate impact" type of player yet.

 

[stui magpie]

3 talls has worked fine the last 2 weeks. Dawes, Cloke and Fraser. Dunno about 4 though, I don't think you can play Dawes, Cloke, Fraser AND jack in the same forward line.

Medders plays the jack role as a leading forward and Frase has been increasingly good value as he's adapted to his changed role.

 

[Zahki]

Fraser played last week?

 

[Marklar_33]

Anthony needs to add more strings to his, he needs to present more, he needs to tackle and put more defensive pressure on, and he needs to be able to crumb a little better.

Agree wholeheartedly with the above. Yes, when things are going his way, he will kick 2 or 3 goals, which is handy, but theres not a lot he brings to the table...which brings us to...

What I'd quite like to see is JA played as a CHB. That's what he was groomed as in the VFL, and he showed a lot of potential in that role IMO. As long as Dawes is getting the job done in the forward line, let him Medders and Cloke provide the marking targets, rotate Wood and Jolly through the ruck (both spending a little time in the forward line occasionally) and play Presti and JA down back -- provided JA can displace Nate, of course.

He should be playing CHB in the VFL, or at least sharing time, because if the rumours are true that he was the next Clement, then why isnt that being explored of a player who has plateaued? A swingman who is not Leigh Brown would be very handy

 

[jackcass]

My 10c worth... until we know for sure that 3 talls (Anthony, Cloke & Dawes) doesn't work, we shouldn't rule it out. There will be certain games and certain teams where it could be a very powerful option.

For instance, Geelong used to run Scarlett, Taylor, Harley, Mackey, Milburn all in their defensive area so why wouldn't 3 tall forwards work well against that type of defence.

 

[jackcass]

Just gametime, mate. Wood seems to need gametime to work himself into a game. He's not an "immediate impact" type of player yet.

Valid