Toast Tiger Dylan Grimes part of vintage crop

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Jan 13, 2005
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Lol we do like rewriting history.
In Jacksons first 10 yrs i couldnt be bothered going any further Jackson had 81 picks that is N/D, PSD, Rookie. 10 of them went on to play in the 2017 premiership. Some of these 81 picks were mature types and may not be attributable to him but the fact they are in the three drafts i have included them. I have not included trades as i have never thought that an area of resposibility although im sure as our head recruiter he had input.
So out of all those picks he found 1 premiership player per yr.
Of those 81 my own opinion is only 13 were half decent players. There are probably 3 or 5 others that people could argue about and id be okay with that.
the 13 players are
1/ Deledio, 2/ Cotchin, 3/ Martin, 9/ Vlastuin, 13/ Riewoldt, 15/ Ellis, 18/ Rance, 26/ Edwards, 31/ McIntosh 35/ Astbury, Grimes psd, King (r), Miles (r)

In anyones language his first 10 yrs were appalling just three players in all drafts after pick 35. With only basically hits with a percentage of top 30 picks.
iM happy to do the remaining few yrs as well but im sure it continues in the same sort of vein

I hate seeing history rewritten. I understand we had issues but at the end of the day recruiting came down to him and he was lucky to keep his job imo. If we had continued in the same sort of vein then we would have never won a flag. finding just one good player a yr our good players would have been too old before we found enough others. We were so poor for so long because of recruiting and Jackson has to take responsibility for that.

this means nothing unless you do a comparison against every other clubs recruiting in the same time period.

Every recruiting team has more busts then hits I reckon.

Not to mention you’ve already fabricated history by including 2004 draft when he wasnt at the club and 2005 draft where he was part time and miller picked JON based on a video tape.

Could also mention in 2009 the pies recruiting budget was 15 times ours and FJ was paying for his own accommodation when scouting. Not to mention the clear improvement in our development in the last few years.
 

mopsy

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I don’t think Francis Jackson was there when Deledio was recruited. It seems he was employed in 2005 but not sure if he inputted to that year’s draft.

So from 2006 he has definitely had a strong input to our drafting. One way of measuring a recruiter’s effectiveness is as you have done, to count up the amount of picks the club had in a period and then to count how many of the players selected met a certain standard, in this case you have selected “half decent” as the standard. We could also select “elite” as the standard, or 100+ games or some other measure. What your method doesn’t account for is just how good the good selections have been. As our recent history has shown if you build a strong very strong core to lead the team it is possible to rapidly fill the team up with good role players later.

I am sure this has been argued ad nauseam on this forum but to get Riewoldt, Edwards, Cotchin, Rance, Martin, Astbury, Ellis, Vlastuin, Mcintosh, so 9 individual premiership players with 1 Premiership Captain, 3 Coleman Medals, 2 Brownlow Medals, 2 Norm Smith Medals, 5 All Australians, some of those multiples, from 17 first or second round picks in the period Jackson was chief recruiter(and much of that in a hampered capacity,) seems to me a very respectable return. If you think some other recruiting department did better throughout that period, let’s have their list of achievements to compare.

Those 8 drafts also yielded King, Grimes, Houli, who have been significantly useful, to say the least. So if I have this right, in his 8 drafts in charge we net 4 absolute decorated champions(Cotchin, Rance, Riewoldt, Martin,) 5 unquestionably key contributors to multiple premiership teams, Edwards, Astbury, Vlastuin, Houli, Grimes, and Ellis, Mcintosh, who were at the very least useful premiership contributors, and the inimitable Jake King. So by my reckoning that is 12 strong players from 8 drafts at the rate of 1.5 per season, which is getting much closer to the amount you need to sustain a strong team than the one per season you stated he achieved.

2014 netted Soldo, Lambert, Castagna, Butler, Short.

2015 we got Rioli, Broad, Chol

2016 Bolton, Graham, Garthwaite.

2017 Higgins, Coleman-Jones, Balta, Naish, Baker

2018 Pickett, Collier-Dawkins, Stack, Ross, Turner

So since 2014 we seem to have been averaging around or above 3 half decent players recruited per season and I am sure Jackson has played his part in that.

Now I am not sure where his responsibilities started and ended in each year as the recruiting department became better resourced, so hopefully somebody can illuminate us about that. But when we needed future stars and leaders from high draft picks, as far as I can see he has produced those admirably, and later where we needed talented role players we have produced those seemingly at will.

I just think that to be credibly critical of Jackson you need to show rivals who have done better with less and as matters stand right now, I am not sure you could.
Im not getting into a big huge debate over Jackson. It has been done to death over the yrs.Go back and read some of the threads on various sites
if you want insight.

Two points my understanding he was bought in part time in 2004 there was basically just him and miller so he is equally responsible for that draft.
He was appointed full time recruiting manager on the back of that draft in 2005.
In 2016 Clarke took over as the manager. so Jackson can be judged from 04 to 15 by my reckoning.

I add just this
04
we had 5 picks all top 20 only Deledio the #1 pick and hard to stuff up even for FJ had a career and the other 4 didnt last a hell of a long time.None from this draft played in the g/f or are left on the list.
05
Not one decent player out of 7 none are left on the list or played in the g/f

06
Out of 8 picks only three had a career, one King while a favorite was ordinary but a good get for a rookie pick. JR 13 and Edwards 26 have had great careers and played in the g/f.
King a mature recruit is one of just 3 or so taken in his first 10 yrs of recruiting who was taken after pick 35 and had a decent career.

07
Out of 8 picks just 2 hits Cotchin at 2 and Rance at 18 again it would be hard to stuff up pick 2 for anyone. both are still there and both played in the 17 premiership

08
8 picks again none are left on the list and none played in the g/f. Vickery was taken at 8 and some would argue he was okay.

09
14 picks, just 3 hits. Martin at 3 was again a monty. astbury was taken at 35 and grimes was one of very very few good gets in the psd.
These three played in the g/f and are the only ones left on the list

10
8 picks again none are left and none played in the g/f. People will argue Conca 6 was a good player i thought him ordinary and a poor pick at 6.

11
9 picks none are left and only B Ellis pick 15 played in the g/f. A polarising player who you could take or leave.

12
8 picks Vlastuin 9 McIntosh 31 are the only ones who remain and both played in a g/f imo Mcintosh is just an average player and could be on thin ice.

13
6 picks none left lennon at 12 was a bust as well.Miles and Lloyd were mature pick ups who did okay both rookie picks.

14
9 picks all nd picks were a bust but he did surprisingly well for once with late nd butler 67 and rookie picks Short Castagna and the Mature Lambert. these 4 remain and all got a flag.

15
6 picks rioli 15 was 1st rounder. 4 remain and two played in the g/f rioli and the mature recruit Broad.


In that period he had by my count 96 ND PSD and rookie picks.As i have argued at the time over the yrs imo he was very ordinary and very lucky to not get the arse.
 
No jibes mate just Facts and more facts. you only need look for yourself. One thing for sure about recruiters they can be judged on their picks and the truth is Jackson had a million of them for very little success. Fact after 7 yrs of Jacksons recruiting we were labelled worse than fitzroy simply because we had so few hits in the nd /rookie psd.It took 10 yrs just to make a final only to be beaten by the team that finished 9th.
He was roundly laughed at not only by us but buy his peers in the footy community.

In anyones language he was horrid and we finally did something about it in 2016. At any other club he would have been long gone.

Imo any key board warrior with half a clue would have had just as many hits as FJ IT WOULDNT BE HARD THERE WERE SO FEW.

So who recruited most of our premiership team in 2017, and 2019?

If it wasn't FJ I haven't ever heard of them. Just interested.

Oh do you mean we need Dodo in charge. Makes sense.
 

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mopsy

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this means nothing unless you do a comparison against every other clubs recruiting in the same time period.

Every recruiting team has more busts then hits I reckon.

Not to mention you’ve already fabricated history by including 2004 draft when he wasnt at the club and 2005 draft where he was part time and miller picked JON based on a video tape.

Could also mention in 2009 the pies recruiting budget was 15 times ours and FJ was paying for his own accommodation when scouting. Not to mention the clear improvement in our development in the last few years.
Id suggest if you want a comparison you get off you arse and do it yourself.

Im happy to concede he may not have been there in 2004 will have to go back and refresh, i thought iT was 2004 when he was appointed part time.
Hardly alters the numbers though he was consistently bad from 04 onwards or 05 onwards.

I do know he was appointed part time in either 2004 or 2005 to OVERSEE the recruiting dept.He was then made full time after one of those seasons. There is an article at the time from the rfc site saying as much, that i do remember and have dug it out in the past.So i apologise if wrong one should not just trust memory.

How wrong can one be, Miller while he did a big write up on Jon at a draft night for the supporters, he wanted travis Varcoe in the 2005 draft. Jackson was appointed to oversee that draft and he was either part time or full time. that came from a person who was on the table on the night.


Have dug it up an article by tony greenberg on 11/2/05 on richmondfc.com.au says he was appointed in a KEY part time recruiting capacity to oversee the tigers recruiting dept.
He oversaw 3 admin part timers and 6 recruiters who were out in the field every week. also Miller bought over another bloke from north peter cecil so he was hardly doing it on his own.
 
Feb 4, 2008
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Id suggest if you want a comparison you get off you arse and do it yourself.

Im happy to concede he may not have been there in 2004 will have to go back and refresh, i thought iT was 2004 when he was appointed part time.
Hardly alters the numbers though he was consistently bad from 04 onwards or 05 onwards.

I do know he was appointed part time in either 2004 or 2005 to OVERSEE the recruiting dept.He was then made full time after one of those seasons. There is an article at the time from the rfc site saying as much, that i do remember and have dug it out in the past.So i apologise if wrong one should not just trust memory.

How wrong can one be, Miller while he did a big write up on Jon at a draft night for the supporters, he wanted travis Varcoe in the 2005 draft. Jackson was appointed to oversee that draft and he was either part time or full time. that came from a person who was on the table on the night.


Have dug it up an article by tony greenberg on 11/2/05 on richmondfc.com.au says he was appointed in a KEY part time recruiting capacity to oversee the tigers recruiting dept.

He oversaw 3 admin part timers and 6 recruiters who were out in the field every week. also Miller bought over another bloke from north peter cecil so he was hardly doing it on his own.

Haha you left this bit out: so in having included 2004 I was wrrrrr......wrrrrrr......wrrrrrrrr.......wrrrrrr. ;)



I jest. So 2005 he starts part time and we have a wipeout, fair enough, forgive him the one bad run, especially first up. 2006, 07, 09 he has what can only be described as a purple patch recruiting 7 players who have proved invaluable to the club, and there is no fair or reasonable way to downplay that or diminish it as an achievement. You said in one other post words to the effect anyone could have got Cotchin right. It is also true anyone could have got Cotchin wrong. Same goes for every pick anyone takes.

You seem to be holding him to a very unfair standard where picks he nails the man on the moon could get right but ones he misses on no competent recruiter could have messed up. That doesn’t seem objectively fair. You have also said on this thread he is lucky to still be at the club. I would hazard that anyone who is at the club right now would feel fortunate. Equally though, given the recruiting in recent drafts - of which he is undoubtedly a part, it would probably be fair to say the club is lucky to have him.

As for the insider at the table when we took JON, that one specific selection does not say Jackson is an incompetent recruiter. Every recruiter will get selections wrong, and every recruiter is entitled to be judged on his entire body of work. The club had no hesitation in letting a swag of assistants go in 2016, yet they held on to Jackson albeit in an altered role. And you don’t need an insider at the club to tell you that means he is valued.
 
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Jan 13, 2005
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Id suggest if you want a comparison you get off you arse and do it yourself.

You decide he was no good based on his record, but the comparison to his peers is very important to determine his ability

you could say Short has 3 broken tackles a game but it means * all unless you know it’s AFL average or below average or above average.

Considering we’ve built a dual premiership list based on him drafting about 2/3rds of the squad and teams like Melbourne, Carlton, Brisbane, Essendon, North, Crows, Port, Freo, Saints etc... haven’t in a similar time frame with a bunch of similarish picks maybe he is above average in terms of hits.

so maybe don’t throw out a bunch of figures with no frame of reference and expect people to swallow it or crack the sads if you get called out on it.

How wrong can one be, Miller while he did a big write up on Jon at a draft night for the supporters, he wanted travis Varcoe in the 2005 draft. Jackson was appointed to oversee that draft and he was either part time or full time. that came from a person who was on the table on the night.

got proof on that one? Because it goes against what plenty of well connected tigers on here have said. Plus Miller was head of recruiting and had final say on the puck. KB has said FJ and Miller only ever saw video footage of JON and it’s well known Miller had a go at pies over Pendlebury and said we rated JON higher.


Have dug it up an article by tony greenberg on 11/2/05 on richmondfc.com.au says he was appointed in a KEY part time recruiting capacity to oversee the tigers recruiting dept.
He oversaw 3 admin part timers and 6 recruiters who were out in the field every week. also Miller bought over another bloke from north peter cecil so he was hardly doing it on his own.

Did I say he was on his own? I said our recruiting budget was said to be 15 times less than collingwoods and FJ paid his own way a lot, not the most conducive environment for success. As Benny Gale has consistently said for Richmond to be competitive we needed to be able to properly fund the Football Department.
 
Feb 4, 2008
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Considering we’ve built a dual premiership list based on him drafting about 2/3rds of the squad and teams like Melbourne, Carlton, Brisbane, Essendon, North, Crows, Port, Freo, Saints etc... haven’t in a similar time frame with a bunch of similarish picks maybe he is above average in terms of hits.

There are only 4 of 44 players on our list who have come from other clubs through trades(Caddy, Prestia, Nankervis,) or free agency(Lynch.) 40 have come through drafting mechanisms or the SSP in Stack’s case and of those only Houli had previously played elsewhere. No player drafted by us prior to 2006 is on our list. So you would say Jackson has been involved in recruiting up tp 40 of the the 44 players on our list currently. So that is more like 9/10ths of our list from where I sit, rather than 2/3rds. No doubt there are some there he didn’t have a strong input to, but nobody has fingerprints on our current list moreso than “casino” Jackson. We are considered to have either the best or next best list in the AFL at present, and I think winning the AFL and VFL premierships in 2019 effectively without Ross and Mcintosh and Graham and with Stack severely hampered bears that out very strongly.

If it is actually correct he paid for some recruiting trips or part of them from his own pocket then he has really gone above and beyond and for me that sort of thing wins huge respect. Even if this part of his history were exaggerated(which I doubt) Jackson is entitled look back now with immense satisfaction.

I love the fact people on here form different views about these things and debate them passionately, but there does come a time to just say I thought I had good reasons for holding a certain opinion in the past but I can now see my view was wrong and well done to him for proving me wrong.
 
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mopsy

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As i said if you need a comparison do it yourself. Jacksons record or lack of one would have had to be one of the biggest talking points for tiger supporters for yrs.
You decide he was no good based on his record, but the comparison to his peers is very important to determine his ability

you could say Short has 3 broken tackles a game but it means fu** all unless you know it’s AFL average or below average or above average.

Considering we’ve built a dual premiership list based on him drafting about 2/3rds of the squad and teams like Melbourne, Carlton, Brisbane, Essendon, North, Crows, Port, Freo, Saints etc... haven’t in a similar time frame with a bunch of similarish picks maybe he is above average in terms of hits.

so maybe don’t throw out a bunch of figures with no frame of reference and expect people to swallow it or crack the sads if you get called out on it.



got proof on that one? Because it goes against what plenty of well connected tigers on here have said. Plus Miller was head of recruiting and had final say on the puck. KB has said FJ and Miller only ever saw video footage of JON and it’s well known Miller had a go at pies over Pendlebury and said we rated JON higher.




Did I say he was on his own? I said our recruiting budget was said to be 15 times less than collingwoods and FJ paid his own way a lot, not the most conducive environment for success. As Benny Gale has consistently said for Richmond to be competitive we needed to be able to properly fund the Football Department.
as i have said over the yrs this debate has raged at various times i dont need to compare his record because its been done to death.If you need enlightenment get of your lazy arse and do the comparisons for yourself. His record is poor comparisons or no comparisons.

up to 2016 we had the worst record of any club in the comp.In charge of recruiting from 05 to 16 thats an eternity of no success and mediocrity. 2005 TO 2010 after 6 yrs in charge we were compared to fitzroy, you are not going to sit there and tell everyone that his recruiting was good when we are compared to Fitzroy of the day. unbelievable if so.

it was poor and our results reflected it.
It took another 7 yrs to win a flag it took so long because poor recruiting in the nd was not good enough.

Yeah he picked up the odd good player here or there Fmd even you all by yourself with the picks we have had would have found at least 2 or 3 good players a yr on average.If you had been there for 10 12 yrs you really had better have found some decent ones across the journey.
Of course Jackson is credited with 2/3 of the premiership players he was the recruiting manager well the recruiting manager when it suits some peoples argument. it means jack s**t when you add a time frame to it.It took an inordinate amount of time.

Dont tell me not to voice an opinion that has been formed throughout the duration of Jacksons tenure. because its been formed throughout and encompasses the good and the bad. i dont need to compare him against others our record up to 2016 speaks more than i could ever say.

Me cracking the sads nope just voicing my opinion which certainly has the likes of you getting your back up. How dare someone suggest all was not rosy at the club.There is a whole pile of people who over the duration have heavily criticed Jackson and the club continually retaining him.
But you ignore that as well.

So you ignore the fact i said the info on JO-N came from a person who was actually on the table on draft night.Miller did talk up JON at a special draft night function held for supporters and this is where the scuttle butt has come from.Do you really think he Miller would be talking up the player they are going to draft in public. I suppose if it suits your argument you will believe it.The fact Jon was spoken about and actually got drafted speaks volumes to me.It suggests a total lack of communication.

No Miller was not head of recruiting the club itself put out an article on 11/2/05 stating Jackson had been appointed in a KEY part time RECRUITING capacity to OVERSEE THE TIGERS RECRUITING DEPT.this has already been stated i wonder if you will choose to ignore it again as it obviously doesnt suit your argument.

No you didnt say he was on his own but you make it sound like he was. He had far more support than every joe blog most of whom without even seeing most players were doing better than Jackson.

At the end of the day i think he was horrible and im going to voice that opinion weather you like it or not. If you think otherwise your welcome to your opinion just dont expect me to agree with you.
 
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mopsy

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End of the day Grimes/Lambo/George/Butler/Short/Stack/Soldo & Pickett have more than made up for past miss hits.
Not to mention the incompetence from the Dees recruiting Dept.
ACtually he cant be credited with stack or pickett as Clarke is the man in charge.
I don’t think Francis Jackson was there when Deledio was recruited. It seems he was employed in 2005 but not sure if he inputted to that year’s draft.

So from 2006 he has definitely had a strong input to our drafting. One way of measuring a recruiter’s effectiveness is as you have done, to count up the amount of picks the club had in a period and then to count how many of the players selected met a certain standard, in this case you have selected “half decent” as the standard. We could also select “elite” as the standard, or 100+ games or some other measure. What your method doesn’t account for is just how good the good selections have been. As our recent history has shown if you build a strong very strong core to lead the team it is possible to rapidly fill the team up with good role players later.

I am sure this has been argued ad nauseam on this forum but to get Riewoldt, Edwards, Cotchin, Rance, Martin, Astbury, Ellis, Vlastuin, Mcintosh, so 9 individual premiership players with 1 Premiership Captain, 3 Coleman Medals, 2 Brownlow Medals, 2 Norm Smith Medals, 5 All Australians, some of those multiples, from 17 first or second round picks in the period Jackson was chief recruiter(and much of that in a hampered capacity,) seems to me a very respectable return. If you think some other recruiting department did better throughout that period, let’s have their list of achievements to compare.

Those 8 drafts also yielded King, Grimes, Houli, who have been significantly useful, to say the least. So if I have this right, in his 8 drafts in charge we net 4 absolute decorated champions(Cotchin, Rance, Riewoldt, Martin,) 5 unquestionably key contributors to multiple premiership teams, Edwards, Astbury, Vlastuin, Houli, Grimes, and Ellis, Mcintosh, who were at the very least useful premiership contributors, and the inimitable Jake King. So by my reckoning that is 12 strong players from 8 drafts at the rate of 1.5 per season, which is getting much closer to the amount you need to sustain a strong team than the one per season you stated he achieved.

2014 netted Soldo, Lambert, Castagna, Butler, Short.

2015 we got Rioli, Broad, Chol

2016 Bolton, Graham, Garthwaite.

2017 Higgins, Coleman-Jones, Balta, Naish, Baker

2018 Pickett, Collier-Dawkins, Stack, Ross, Turner

So since 2014 we seem to have been averaging around or above 3 half decent players recruited per season and I am sure Jackson has played his part in that.

Now I am not sure where his responsibilities started and ended in each year as the recruiting department became better resourced, so hopefully somebody can illuminate us about that. But when we needed future stars and leaders from high draft picks, as far as I can see he has produced those admirably, and later where we needed talented role players we have produced those seemingly at will.

I just think that to be credibly critical of Jackson you need to show rivals who have done better with less and as matters stand right now, I am not sure you could.
So what role did Clarke perform in 16,17,18,19.Isnt he head of recruiting from 16 onwards.
 
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As i said if you need a comparison do it yourself. Jacksons record or lack of one would have had to be one of the biggest talking points for tiger supporters for yrs.

as i have said over the yrs this debate has raged at various times i dont need to compare his record because its been done to death.If you need enlightenment get of your lazy arse and do the comparisons for yourself. His record is poor comparisons or no comparisons.
up to 2016 we had the worst record of any club in the comp.In charge of recruiting from 05 to 16 thats an eternity of no success and mediocrity. 2005 TO 2010 after 6 yrs in charge we were compared to fitzroy, you are not going to sit there and tell everyone that his recruiting was good unbelievable if so. it was poor and our results reflected it.It took another 7 yrs to win a flag it took so long because poor recruiting in the nd was not good enough.
Yeah he picked up the odd good player here or there Fmd even you all by yourself with the picks we have had would have found at least 2 or 3 good players a yr on average.If you had been there for 10 12 yrs you really had better have found some decent ones across the journey.
Of course Jackson is credited with 2/3 of the premiership players he was the recruiting manager well the recruiting manager when it suits some peoples argument. it means jack s**t when you add a time frame to it.It took an inordinate amount of time.

Dont tell me not to voice an opinion that has been formed throughout the duration of Jacksons tenure. because its been formed throughout and encompasses the good and the bad. i dont need to compare him against others our record up to 2016 speaks more than i could ever say.

Me cracking the sads nope just voicing my opinion which certainly has the likes of you getting your back up. How dare someone suggest all was not rosy at the club.There is a whole pile of people who over the duration have heavily criticed Jackson and the club continually retaining him.
But you ignore that as well.

So you ignore the fact i said the info on JO-N came from a person who was actually on the table on draft night.Miller did talk up JON at a special draft night function held for supporters and this is where the scuttle butt has come from.Do you really think he Miller would be talking up the player they are going to draft in public. I suppose if it suits your argument you will believe it.The fact Jon was spoken about and actually got drafted speaks volumes to me.It suggests a total lack of communication.

No Miller was not head of recruiting the club itself put out an article on 11/2/05 stating Jackson had been appointed in a KEY part time RECRUITING capacity to OVERSEE THE TIGERS RECRUITING DEPT.this has already been stated i wonder if you will choose to ignore it again as it obviously doesnt suit your argument.

No you didnt say he was on his own but you make it sound like he was. He had far more support than every joe blog most of whom without even seeing most players were doing better than Jackson.

At the end of the day i think he was horrible and im going to voice that opinion weather you like it or not. If you think otherwise your welcome to your opinion just dont expect me to agree with you.

This has come to the fore because Dylan Grimes’ mum stated publicly Jackson does not get enough credit for the good work he did especially given the difficulties he worked with. It seems a reasonable statement, though I suppose anyone with a connection to a player recruited to any AFL club would feel some gratitude towards the recruiter.

I have come late to this debate but I do think it is available to you to revise your view on his value regardless of how invested you were in that view before. It was a fair enough view to have I reckon, but in certain ways it has been shown to be wrong. I don’t say this as a person who is invested in any view from earlier years, for all I know I might have formed exactly the same view as you.

As has been already stated on this thread, there are certain obvious truths on the positive side of the debate about FJ, but let me summarise that argument in my words here:

- It should be accepted there is a reasonable lag period from when a recruiter starts until when his successes can be fairly judged.
- This period is about 4-5 years at least in most clubs
- For Richmond is has to be longer because there was little or no leadership structure left on the list from previous eras, certainly none of the type you would often see at a successful club.
- So the earliest you can reasonably start holding FJ to account for the performance of the list is from maybe 2011 or so.
- He had compromised drafts to navigate which clearly cost the club some strong recruits around this time.
- From 2013 onwards the club has a mean average of over 14 wins per season.
- In that period, the median average of wins is 15 and the mode average is 15. This is a list winning more than twice as many games as it loses in 5 of the 7 seasons from 2013 onwards, only falling below that due to injuries or other malfunctions not to do with list strength.
- In 2016 towards the end of the season Hardwick made public statements saying the list wasn’t the problem and that the list was at its strongest in his time at the club.
- Hardwick and other coaches at the club also made statements after the 2017 success that part of what they did that worked was go back to the recruiters at the end of 2016 and asked why they recruited each player, then formed a gameplan around what the recruits could do rather than making the recruits fit into some theoretically ideal gameplan to which they were not suited.
- As we know the rest is history, finished 3rd 1st 3rd in next three regular seasons and 1 3 1 after the finals series.
- The VFL team has enjoyed very similar success in the same period.
- As a result of the club wide review in 2016 a lot of changes of personnel were made. FJ was retained. Had the club not valued his work, he would definitely have been released at that time.
- Other recruiting structure and list management personnel has now been put in place to match other strong clubs and that part of the club seems to be functioning very well, and FJ operates within that area.

So whatever else we say about FJ, we cannot say his work has not formed part of this successful era. It is undeniable that all of the main current leaders were recruited by him and they are revered AFL wide for both their playing abilities and leadership. And as I wrote earlier up to 40 of the current strongest list in the competition were recruited by him or their recruitment was input to by him.

Against that you can quite correctly point to a pile of misses he has had over the years. But how much of that is his recruiting acumen and how much is the lack of support for him in the earlier years and also the lack of quality player development in that period?

One last point....it is perfectly feasible for any person to improve their performance in a job over the years as they learn and get feedback in the form of hits and misses. It is not as if he had a well resourced high functioning recruiting department that he walked into to guide him on how to operate.

You don’t have to stick steadfastly to a position forever Mopsy, it is fine to concede you weren’t in a strong position to judge the real value of his work and acknowledge he has done well overall despite some failures along the way. It seems a little mean not to do that.
 
Pretty hard to quantify the impact of the draft concessions and allowances from 2010-2014.
I wonder sometimes how many of those 17yr olds that GWS and GC got were just wasted and never had a career because they were thrown to a junk club or in GWS’s case too many talented kids and some just ended up rotting on the vine, so to speak.
And that follows for us as a club back then too for development and having an environment that could turn a maybe into a good player.
To hear stories of picking players from video footage and never seeing em play live probably shows how under prepared and lacking in professionalism the FD was as well.
 

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Nov 23, 2000
57,838
125,448
Country Victoria
AFL Club
Richmond
How ******* insulting.AFL .com has put up their vic team for SOO.
No Grimes.
Adam Saad named.
Not to mention Sam Docherty who's been out for 2yrs.lol

B: Tom Stewart (Geelong), Daniel Talia (Adelaide), Adam Saad (Essendon)
HB: James Sicily (Hawthorn), Michael Hurley (Essendon), Sam Docherty (Carlton)
C: Jack Macrae (WB), Dustin Martin (Richmond), Zach Merrett (Essendon)
HF: Shaun Higgins (North Melbourne), Tom Lynch (Richmond), Robbie Gray (Port Adelaide)
F: Toby Greene (GWS), Jeremy Cameron (GWS), Jordan De Goey (Collingwood)
R: Max Gawn (Melbourne), Patrick Dangerfield (Geelong), Marcus Bontempelli (WB)
Int: Scott Pendlebury (Collingwood), Clayton Oliver (Melbourne), Ben Cunnington (North Melbourne), Sam Walsh (Carlton), Gary Ablett (Geelong), Rowan Marshall (St Kilda)
 
How ******* insulting.AFL .com has put up their vic team for SOO.
No Grimes.
Adam Saad named.
Not to mention Sam Docherty who's been out for 2yrs.lol

B: Tom Stewart (Geelong), Daniel Talia (Adelaide), Adam Saad (Essendon)
HB: James Sicily (Hawthorn), Michael Hurley (Essendon), Sam Docherty (Carlton)
C: Jack Macrae (WB), Dustin Martin (Richmond), Zach Merrett (Essendon)
HF: Shaun Higgins (North Melbourne), Tom Lynch (Richmond), Robbie Gray (Port Adelaide)
F: Toby Greene (GWS), Jeremy Cameron (GWS), Jordan De Goey (Collingwood)
R: Max Gawn (Melbourne), Patrick Dangerfield (Geelong), Marcus Bontempelli (WB)
Int: Scott Pendlebury (Collingwood), Clayton Oliver (Melbourne), Ben Cunnington (North Melbourne), Sam Walsh (Carlton), Gary Ablett (Geelong), Rowan Marshall (St Kilda)

Seriously!

Interesting team. Not the best of Vic. But probably worth watching.
 
Feb 4, 2008
12,967
27,948
Melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
How ******* insulting.AFL .com has put up their vic team for SOO.
No Grimes.
Adam Saad named.
Not to mention Sam Docherty who's been out for 2yrs.lol

B: Tom Stewart (Geelong), Daniel Talia (Adelaide), Adam Saad (Essendon)
HB: James Sicily (Hawthorn), Michael Hurley (Essendon), Sam Docherty (Carlton)
C: Jack Macrae (WB), Dustin Martin (Richmond), Zach Merrett (Essendon)
HF: Shaun Higgins (North Melbourne), Tom Lynch (Richmond), Robbie Gray (Port Adelaide)
F: Toby Greene (GWS), Jeremy Cameron (GWS), Jordan De Goey (Collingwood)
R: Max Gawn (Melbourne), Patrick Dangerfield (Geelong), Marcus Bontempelli (WB)
Int: Scott Pendlebury (Collingwood), Clayton Oliver (Melbourne), Ben Cunnington (North Melbourne), Sam Walsh (Carlton), Gary Ablett (Geelong), Rowan Marshall (St Kilda)

They set themselves a limit of three players per club in the match. They have gone with Lynch, Riewoldt and Martin from footy headquarters at The Swinburne. It just doesn’t look right though when the first 9 names you read there are three bombers, and Docherty and Walsh ffs, it is a bushfire charity match, not a Carlton FC charity match.
 

Gold Rocks

Club Legend
Oct 2, 2019
1,341
2,070
AFL Club
Richmond
I wouldn't be surprised if grimes retires about 31ish with the vineyard bringing in cash.
 
Nov 23, 2000
57,838
125,448
Country Victoria
AFL Club
Richmond
They set themselves a limit of three players per club in the match. They have gone with Lynch, Riewoldt and Martin from footy headquarters at The Swinburne. It just doesn’t look right though when the first 9 names you read there are three bombers, and Docherty and Walsh ffs, it is a bushfire charity match, not a Carlton FC charity match.
I see.
Tough call for our part.
Your right in regards to carlton.Reflects how bad their list is.
 
May 8, 2007
10,579
14,813
vic
AFL Club
Richmond
How ******* insulting.AFL .com has put up their vic team for SOO.
No Grimes.
Adam Saad named.
Not to mention Sam Docherty who's been out for 2yrs.lol

B: Tom Stewart (Geelong), Daniel Talia (Adelaide), Adam Saad (Essendon)
HB: James Sicily (Hawthorn), Michael Hurley (Essendon), Sam Docherty (Carlton)
C: Jack Macrae (WB), Dustin Martin (Richmond), Zach Merrett (Essendon)
HF: Shaun Higgins (North Melbourne), Tom Lynch (Richmond), Robbie Gray (Port Adelaide)
F: Toby Greene (GWS), Jeremy Cameron (GWS), Jordan De Goey (Collingwood)
R: Max Gawn (Melbourne), Patrick Dangerfield (Geelong), Marcus Bontempelli (WB)
Int: Scott Pendlebury (Collingwood), Clayton Oliver (Melbourne), Ben Cunnington (North Melbourne), Sam Walsh (Carlton), Gary Ablett (Geelong), Rowan Marshall (St Kilda)


Oh yeah - I can really see Carlton letting Docherty play after coming back from 2 knees................................

I expect to see a huge increase in 'General Soreness after a long Preseason' in the AFL shortly - Oh, sure, the players will all turn up and do selfies, autographs, put boots up for auction etc.
 
Nov 23, 2000
57,838
125,448
Country Victoria
AFL Club
Richmond
Oh yeah - I can really see Carlton letting Docherty play after coming back from 2 knees................................

I expect to see a huge increase in 'General Soreness after a long Preseason' in the AFL shortly - Oh, sure, the players will all turn up and do selfies, autographs, put boots up for auction etc.
Least with Dimma as coach.Dusty & Grimes will be starting on the bench for the 1st 120mins. ;)
 
Nov 23, 2000
57,838
125,448
Country Victoria
AFL Club
Richmond

RICHMOND
Richmond star Dylan Grimes opens up on difficult times as he goes from backman to boss to keep Mount Macedon Winery thriving
While most footballers were stressing about whether Round 1 would go ahead, two-time premiership Tiger Dylan Grimes was also juggling his life as owner of Mount Macedon Winery.
Lauren Wood, Herald Sun
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March 28, 2020 8:00am
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As Richmond grapples with the fallout of its season being shut down, two-time premiership player Dylan Grimes faces a coronavirus crisis on another front.
The 28-year-old defender is fighting to save his Mount Macedon Winery business, which runs as a farm, restaurant, function centre and on-site accommodation.
With tourism grinding to a halt, hospitality in free fall and life in general being squeezed, Grimes and wife Elisha are facing their biggest-ever challenge since taking over the Woodend property three and a half years ago.
“Like everyone, the first wave of shock has started to wear off a little bit, and I’m getting kind of used to being at home full-time and the routine around that,” Grimes told the Herald Sun this week.
“We’re going OK. It’s certainly a different position. Both Elisha (who manages the winery’s hospitality arm) and I aren’t working full-time.
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Two-time Richmond premiership player Dylan Grimes and dog Gus at his winery, Mount Macedon Winery. Picture: Michael Klein
Two-time Richmond premiership player Dylan Grimes and dog Gus at his winery, Mount Macedon Winery. Picture: Michael Klein
“It’s an odd scenario we find ourselves in, but not an uncommon one, unfortunately. All in all, we’re going OK.
“There’s still a lot to be really grateful for and to be really happy about, so we’re focusing on those as much as we can.”
Grimes said he had taken plenty from his experiences at Richmond to apply to the winery.

“We host a lot of weddings, so around Round 1 it was pretty heartbreaking as the stages went through and working with couples around postponing their wedding due to the virus,” he said.
“Initially the focus was cutting guest numbers down to get under the 100 person limit, then it was the 4m rule (to be set around patrons).
“It’s sort of been a bit of a rollercoaster. When the final call was made, there’s been a hell of a lot of work we’ve had to do in the background. We have staff that we need to support through this time as well.
“It’s been a challenging time for small business, broadly speaking, and the people that have lost jobs and rely on that income and need that income to keep the lights on and keep food on the table, it’s certainly been a really challenging time for a lot of people.”
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The winery forklift also serves as a bench press and squat rack as Grimes trains in isolation. Picture: Michael Klein
The winery forklift also serves as a bench press and squat rack as Grimes trains in isolation. Picture: Michael Klein
It’s the “unknown nature” of COVID-19 and its potential effects that strikes Grimes.
“There were some super challenging times, and easily this has been our biggest since we took over the farm and opened up Mount Macedon Winery,” he said.
“Just the unknown nature of the whole thing.
“We played footy through both world wars, the plague, and in terms of putting a pause on the season, I don’t think anyone could have predicted that was going to have an impact on our life up here on the farm as well.
“Here we are and we’re trying to make the most of it.”
Grimes uses the barbell to do pull-ups as he works to maintain his strength during the enforced layoff.
Grimes uses the barbell to do pull-ups as he works to maintain his strength during the enforced layoff.
Aside from the hospitality arm, the have the all-important grape harvest in a fortnight, which will be critical.
The vineyard staff are the only ones that remain on the books.
“We’re working hard at the vineyard and firmly focused on harvest in a couple of weeks’ time,” the defender said.
“Everything else just seems to have gone into chaos a little bit, but the farm has been grounding in some ways, because really the actual aspects of growing food and growing wine really hasn’t been disrupted too much.”
Tom Lynch and Grimes after the 2019 AFL Grand Final victory. Picture: Mark Stewart
Tom Lynch and Grimes after the 2019 AFL Grand Final victory. Picture: Mark Stewart
Other aspects of farm life have provided much-needed respite.
They have a pregnant cow to check on, and Grimes and his wife take evening hikes with dog Gus in tow.
There’s also a unique home gym where he and Elisha train every day, using the forklift as a bench press, chin-up bar and a squat rack.
But in the face of the challenges as a boss and a business owner, Grimes says he has continually sought inspiration from Punt Road.
Grimes admits he has adopted a similar business strategy to that of the Richmond Football Club during this difficult time.
Grimes admits he has adopted a similar business strategy to that of the Richmond Football Club during this difficult time.
“Working with staff and having to work through some really challenging issues over the last month … we learned so much in a business sense from how well Richmond handled this whole situation,” he said.
“Up at the farm, I’m mirroring a lot of stuff that Richmond were doing and I’ve got to say, in times of crisis, I think that’s when it tests our your organisation’s leadership so much. I really feel like they came out absolutely shining.”
HOW CAN PEOPLE SUPPORT THE WINERY?
The doors might be closed on the hospitality front for now, but if you follow @mountmacedonwinery on Instagram, you’ll be the first to know when the restaurant, cellar door and guest accommodation are back up and running.
 

Tough being hit both ways. but at least he has more than enough to keep hi busy. And a training partner.

I just jogged down the local Primary School's oval and found some perfect bars to do chin ups. So I can do some sort fo workout whilst the gyms closed. Grimes has a forklift :cool:
 
May 8, 2007
10,579
14,813
vic
AFL Club
Richmond
Tough being hit both ways. but at least he has more than enough to keep hi busy. And a training partner.

I just jogged down the local Primary School's oval and found some perfect bars to do chin ups. So I can do some sort fo workout whilst the gyms closed. Grimes has a forklift :cool:
Well, no you can't. All outdoor gyms and playgrounds are now closed.
 

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